Hello shyrley.williams@...,

In reference to your comment:

è Have either of them got children?

Both John Forrester and I have children. His are grown (I think) but he does
mention them in his book. I have two - Chris (now 22) and Sarah (15).

Chris Law


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Riin,

Here's how mine works.  At the top are two stainless steel
hooks.  At the bottom, a single hook with a bungee cord
tensioner.  To install it, I put the bottom hook over a
projecting rod on my Blackburn rack, pull up to tension the
bungee, then lower the top hooks over the top rail of the
rack.  Removing it is just as easy.  Pull up to clear the top
hooks, then lower the bag slightly and the bottom hook swings
free (most of the time.)  The process takes only a few
seconds.

Ed

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is middle-aged.

-----Original Message-----
From: RIIN GILL [mailto:riin@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 11:53 AM
To: bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bicyclingadvocacy] new bike, the pannier
question

I'm actually a little bit confused about how you mount it.  I
looked at
the mounting instructions --
http://www.jandd.com/Technotes/technotes_police-commuter.asp -
-
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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10/29/04

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004, Ed Wagner wrote:

> I use that bag.  Mine is an older unit without the shoulder
> strap or the padded grip.  It has a pair of steel hooks on the
> top and an adjustable strap/bungee hook on the bottom.  Easy
> on.  Easy off.  It projects above the top of the rack, so if
> you're using another bag there, be sure it won't interfere
> with the hooks.  Jandd markets this as a police/paramedic
> model too and that unit has a Velcro strip attached for a
> logo.  I've used this one for 3 or 4 years.

I'm actually a little bit confused about how you mount it.  I looked at
the mounting instructions --
http://www.jandd.com/Technotes/technotes_police-commuter.asp -- when they
say Release V-Webbing at hook and loop "A" and loosen tensionlock
"B", hook and loop "A" is velcro you have to undo and tensionlock "B" is
some kind of buckle?  Or have they changed the design since you got
yours?

***********************************************************
Riin Gill
Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
University of Michigan
***********************************************************
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, James & Ute Grayson wrote:

> I have had great success with the Serratus brand, manufactured by a
> wholly-owned subsidiary of, and sold through, Mountain Equipment Co-op
> (MEC) http://www.mec.ca/Main/home.jsp .  They also have a great warranty
> on their panniers!  There is an MEC store in Halifax.

I was looking at MEC's Serratus backpack/pannier, but they don't give the
actual dimensions, so I don't know how it compares to my current backpack.
I emailed them to ask, but they haven't responded.

> My preferred system is to use large 43 L panniers on a low-rider, front
> rack and 31 L panniers on a rear rack.  For the Really 'BIG' stuff, I
> use my BoB trailer.

I hadn't considered also getting a front rack.  I suppose I could, though
I'm not sure I want to.  I do have a trailer, but as you say, it's for
really big stuff.  I prefer to do my grocery shopping on the way home from
work, which is why I need to be able to carry the two grocery bags plus my
commuting bag.  Once I get home from work, I do not like to go out again.

I found one more backpack/pannier on the web last night, but again, they
didn't give the dimensions.  Has anyone used Lone Peak panniers?  Like
them?  I emailed them to ask for more information.

***********************************************************
Riin Gill
Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
University of Michigan
***********************************************************
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.

--- Jwar11235@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/6/2004 4:03:39 AM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> shyrley.williams@... writes:
> after I've been to the hospital
> to see my youngest.
> Shyrley,
>
> How is she doing?
>
> Johnny
> Gateway to the North Georgia Mountains
>

She's now out. 3 weeks in this time with the Norwalk
virus!! Only she's lost all her muscle controlo again
so I still can't put her on the rear rack seat.
Sheesh.

Shyrley

=====
Suburbia: Where they rip up all the trees and name streets after them.






___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

In a message dated 11/6/2004 4:03:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
shyrley.williams@... writes:
after I've been to the hospital
to see my youngest.
Shyrley,

How is she doing?

Johnny
Gateway to the North Georgia Mountains


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Riin,

I use that bag.  Mine is an older unit without the shoulder
strap or the padded grip.  It has a pair of steel hooks on the
top and an adjustable strap/bungee hook on the bottom.  Easy
on.  Easy off.  It projects above the top of the rack, so if
you're using another bag there, be sure it won't interfere
with the hooks.  Jandd markets this as a police/paramedic
model too and that unit has a Velcro strip attached for a
logo.  I've used this one for 3 or 4 years.

Ed

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is middle-aged.

-----Original Message-----
From: RIIN GILL [mailto:riin@...]
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:56 PM
To: bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bicyclingadvocacy] new bike, the pannier question



I've been so busy I didn't mention I got a new bike a week
ago.  I got a
Giant Cypress LX.  It's got an aluminum frame, a suspension
fork and
seatpost, and disc brakes.  The LBS was having a sale, 20% off
all bikes,
so it cost about the same as my old bike.  Sweet.  :)  I
REALLY like the
disc brakes.

I think I might have to give up on the idea of a pannier that
converts to
a backpack.  :(  I ordered the Arkel Bug, and frankly, it's
just much too
small.  I have to send it back.  I'm very happy with the way
the
conversion works, and it's well made, but it just isn't big
enough.  The
maximum dimensions are approximately the same as my current
backpack, so I
figured it would hold approximately the same volume
(reasonable, no?), but
the design is so overly contoured that the volume is much
less.  All of
the other backpack/panniers I've looked at are either way too
small, or
they're actually bigger than I need, or they're only sold in
pairs, or I
don't like the way they convert (they involve adding or taking
something
off every time you do the conversion, rather inconvenient, I
think).  I do
need a pannier that converts into a bag I can carry on my body
if need be,
so when I have two bags of groceries (I'm very happy with the
two Arkel
Utility Baskets I got for groceries, btw.  They're nice and
roomy, and I
can put one inside the other when not in use) and the rack is
full, the
third pannier can go on my back.  So, I think I might get this
bag:
http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FCP  Does anyone
have any
experience with it?  Like it?  Think it sucks?

I'll try to get pictures of my new bike on my website soon.  I
kept the
handlebars from my old bike because I need to keep my hands at
that angle.
I'm leaning farther forward than I was, which I wanted, but I
can't have
my wrists bent weird like other handlebars force them to do.
Tendinitis
City.  I'm still waiting for the rack and fenders I had the
LBS order for
me.  I wanted a heavier duty rack than what they had, and I've
been seeing
bright yellow fenders around town, so I wanted those.  Figured
I'd go for
the conspicuity.  I asked about them today, and they said by
next Monday
or Tuesday.  Man, I'll be so glad to have fenders.  It's been
raining a
lot lately, and I've got to say, riding in the rain without
fenders
totally sucks.  How does anyone stand it?  The dirty street
water has been
bouncing off the front tire right up into my face.  Blech.

***********************************************************
Riin Gill
Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
University of Michigan
***********************************************************
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.


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Have either of them got children?
Gonna go read it later after I've been to the hospital
to see my youngest. I really need some sort of clear
goggles to keep the rain off my eyes as my contact
lenses wash out :-(

Shyrley



  --- Serge <ljserge@...> wrote:
>
>
> I hope this isn't inappropriate to post here, but I
> thought some other
> folks on this list might want to check out the
> interesting dialog
> between Chris Law and John Forester on the topic of
> educating children
> about cycling, when they are old enough to ride on
> roads, etc.  It's
> on chainguard.
>
> http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/chainguard/
>
> It starts with message 20274 from Chris:
>
>
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/chainguard/message/20274
>
> For what's it worth, I've plugged this forum over
> there (and/or on BTI
> - I forget) in the past.
>
> Serge
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     bicyclingadvocacy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

=====
Suburbia: Where they rip up all the trees and name streets after them.






___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Riin,

Before you rush out and purchase this pannier, keep in mind that you are
soon to be a Canadian (resident).

I have had great success with the Serratus brand, manufactured by a
wholly-owned subsidiary of, and sold through, Mountain Equipment Co-op
(MEC) http://www.mec.ca/Main/home.jsp .  They also have a great warranty
on their panniers!  There is an MEC store in Halifax.


My preferred system is to use large 43 L panniers on a low-rider, front
rack and 31 L panniers on a rear rack.  For the Really 'BIG' stuff, I
use my BoB trailer.

Jim

>From: RIIN GILL, November 5, 2004 21:56
>
>I've been so busy I didn't mention I got a new bike a week ago.  I got
a
>Giant Cypress LX.  It's got an aluminum frame, a suspension fork and
>seatpost, and disc brakes.  The LBS was having a sale, 20% off all
bikes,
>so it cost about the same as my old bike.  Sweet.  :)  I REALLY like
the
>disc brakes.
>
>I think I might have to give up on the idea of a pannier that converts
to
>a backpack.  :(  I ordered the Arkel Bug, and frankly, it's just much
too
>small.  I have to send it back.  I'm very happy with the way the
>conversion works, and it's well made, but it just isn't big enough.
The
>maximum dimensions are approximately the same as my current backpack,
so I
>figured it would hold approximately the same volume (reasonable, no?),
but
>the design is so overly contoured that the volume is much less.  All of
>the other backpack/panniers I've looked at are either way too small, or
>they're actually bigger than I need, or they're only sold in pairs, or
I
>don't like the way they convert (they involve adding or taking
something
>off every time you do the conversion, rather inconvenient, I think).  I
do
>need a pannier that converts into a bag I can carry on my body if need
be,
>so when I have two bags of groceries (I'm very happy with the two Arkel
>Utility Baskets I got for groceries, btw.  They're nice and roomy, and
I
>can put one inside the other when not in use) and the rack is full, the
>third pannier can go on my back.  So, I think I might get this bag:
>http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FCP  Does anyone have any
>experience with it?  Like it?  Think it sucks?
>
>I'll try to get pictures of my new bike on my website soon.  I kept the
>handlebars from my old bike because I need to keep my hands at that
angle.
>I'm leaning farther forward than I was, which I wanted, but I can't
have
>my wrists bent weird like other handlebars force them to do.
Tendinitis
>City.  I'm still waiting for the rack and fenders I had the LBS order
for
>me.  I wanted a heavier duty rack than what they had, and I've been
seeing
>bright yellow fenders around town, so I wanted those.  Figured I'd go
for
>the conspicuity.  I asked about them today, and they said by next
Monday
>or Tuesday.  Man, I'll be so glad to have fenders.  It's been raining a
>lot lately, and I've got to say, riding in the rain without fenders
>totally sucks.  How does anyone stand it?  The dirty street water has
been
>bouncing off the front tire right up into my face.  Blech.
>
>***********************************************************
>Riin Gill
>Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
>Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
>University of Michigan
>***********************************************************
>http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
>If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.
>

I've been so busy I didn't mention I got a new bike a week ago.  I got a
Giant Cypress LX.  It's got an aluminum frame, a suspension fork and
seatpost, and disc brakes.  The LBS was having a sale, 20% off all bikes,
so it cost about the same as my old bike.  Sweet.  :)  I REALLY like the
disc brakes.

I think I might have to give up on the idea of a pannier that converts to
a backpack.  :(  I ordered the Arkel Bug, and frankly, it's just much too
small.  I have to send it back.  I'm very happy with the way the
conversion works, and it's well made, but it just isn't big enough.  The
maximum dimensions are approximately the same as my current backpack, so I
figured it would hold approximately the same volume (reasonable, no?), but
the design is so overly contoured that the volume is much less.  All of
the other backpack/panniers I've looked at are either way too small, or
they're actually bigger than I need, or they're only sold in pairs, or I
don't like the way they convert (they involve adding or taking something
off every time you do the conversion, rather inconvenient, I think).  I do
need a pannier that converts into a bag I can carry on my body if need be,
so when I have two bags of groceries (I'm very happy with the two Arkel
Utility Baskets I got for groceries, btw.  They're nice and roomy, and I
can put one inside the other when not in use) and the rack is full, the
third pannier can go on my back.  So, I think I might get this bag:
http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FCP  Does anyone have any
experience with it?  Like it?  Think it sucks?

I'll try to get pictures of my new bike on my website soon.  I kept the
handlebars from my old bike because I need to keep my hands at that angle.
I'm leaning farther forward than I was, which I wanted, but I can't have
my wrists bent weird like other handlebars force them to do.  Tendinitis
City.  I'm still waiting for the rack and fenders I had the LBS order for
me.  I wanted a heavier duty rack than what they had, and I've been seeing
bright yellow fenders around town, so I wanted those.  Figured I'd go for
the conspicuity.  I asked about them today, and they said by next Monday
or Tuesday.  Man, I'll be so glad to have fenders.  It's been raining a
lot lately, and I've got to say, riding in the rain without fenders
totally sucks.  How does anyone stand it?  The dirty street water has been
bouncing off the front tire right up into my face.  Blech.

***********************************************************
Riin Gill
Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
University of Michigan
***********************************************************
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.

I hope this isn't inappropriate to post here, but I thought some other
folks on this list might want to check out the interesting dialog
between Chris Law and John Forester on the topic of educating children
about cycling, when they are old enough to ride on roads, etc.  It's
on chainguard.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/chainguard/

It starts with message 20274 from Chris:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/chainguard/message/20274

For what's it worth, I've plugged this forum over there (and/or on BTI
- I forget) in the past.

Serge

I was going to send this directly to Riin but then I thought some of
you might enjoy this also.


http://www.marryanamerican.ca/pledge/signed.php

Jon, (married) Canadian in Grand Rapids, Michigan


--- In bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com, RIIN GILL <riin@u...>
wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Robert J. Matter wrote:
>
> > RIIN GILL wrote:
> >
> > > Due to my recent divorce and my upcoming move to Canada
> >
> > Upcoming move to Canada? Political asylum? Global warming not
giving you
> > enough icebiking in the southern climes of Mitchikun?

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Robert J. Matter wrote:

> RIIN GILL wrote:
>
> > Due to my recent divorce and my upcoming move to Canada
>
> Upcoming move to Canada? Political asylum? Global warming not giving you
> enough icebiking in the southern climes of Mitchikun? Fall in love with
> John Ardelli, or just the bike friendliness of Canada? Where are you
> moving to? Inquiring minds want to know!

Am I that transparent?  Yes, I'm in love with John.  He makes me happy.
:)  I'll be happier once he's not 1500 miles away, of course.  I had such
a good time with him and Lisa this summer, and I'm really looking forward
to spending time with them again once I live in Sydney.

***********************************************************
Riin Gill
Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
University of Michigan
***********************************************************
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.

Hello rjmatter@...,

In reference to your comment:

è Usually they are not sent directly from a corporation.
è Usually they are    employees or private contractors
è sent from a PR firm doing the work  for one or more
è corporations or an association.

I would be flattered should some mega-corporation feel that our little group
represented even a remote threat to their CEO's golden parachute.

Chris Law


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, RichardMasoner wrote:

> Oh. Canada?

I've been thinking for a long time that I just can't live in the US
anymore.  Shouldn't come to too much of a surprise to anyone who's looked
at the "Our Culture is Mentally Ill" section of my website.  I should
refrain from discussing politics here.  I've been chastised for that in
the past.  Let's just say events of the last few months have made me
ashamed to be an American and leave it at that.  I think I would fit in
better in Canada.  My political and religious views seem more welcome
there.

***********************************************************
Riin Gill
Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
University of Michigan
***********************************************************
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.

RIIN GILL wrote:

> Due to my recent divorce and my upcoming move to Canada,

Oh. Canada?

RFM

RIIN GILL wrote:

> Due to my recent divorce and my upcoming move to Canada

Upcoming move to Canada? Political asylum? Global warming not giving you
enough icebiking in the southern climes of Mitchikun? Fall in love with
John Ardelli, or just the bike friendliness of Canada? Where are you
moving to? Inquiring minds want to know!

> Yes, I think there are conspiracies, but I have my doubts that anytime
> someone disagrees with someone here, they're someone sent here from some
> corporation.

Usually they are not sent directly from a corporation. Usually they are
   employees or private contractors sent from a PR firm doing the work
for one or more corporations or an association.

Detractors may not even be directly employed by the PR firms. They may
be sincere members of the organization who were gullible enough to
believe the misinformation disseminated by the conspirators elsewhere.
Not everyone is a critical thinker. Witness the last two U.S.
presidential elections.

-Bob Matter
-----------
"The city has nearly quadrupled the miles of bike paths, from on-street
lanes to greenways, since 1997, and more people than ever are cycling.
According to the city's Department of Transportation, the number of
people riding through Midtown in 2003 had tripled since 1980, to about
15,300." --NY Times, 10-03-04

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, RichardMasoner wrote:

> --- In bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy F. Parker" wrote:
>
> > We can see them on this very list, trying to upset the
> > harmony of the group.
>
> Ohfercryinoutloud.
>
> There are honest disagreements about issues and all of a sudden the
> people who disagree with you are moles sent by the nefarious
> conspiracists?
>
> What's next? Them evil Jewish moneylenders and the antichrist? When
> will the pogroms start?
>
> I guess since I'm defending those "trying to upset the harmony" (good
> grief) I must be part of the conspiracy. *sigh*

Oy.  Due to my recent divorce and my upcoming move to Canada, I haven't
had nearly as much time as I'd like to keep up with email (or work on my
website for that matter).  But I can see I need to take some time to step
in here.  At the risk of sounding cliched, can't we all just get along?
Oh, people, please don't do things that make my head hurt....

Yes, I think there are conspiracies, but I have my doubts that anytime
someone disagrees with someone here, they're someone sent here from some
corporation.  Crikey, we're not some major environmental lobby with
thousands of members.  We're a bicycling advocacy email list with 351
members.  Besides, we have enough disagreements where we're more or less
split evenly or where the positions have nothing to do with any corporate
interest.  People just have different opinions, and people are
opinionated.

***********************************************************
Riin Gill
Interlibrary Loan                              734-615-6168
Taubman Medical Library                    fax 734-763-1473
University of Michigan
***********************************************************
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~riin/
If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.

--- In bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy F. Parker" wrote:

> We can see them on this very list, trying to upset the
> harmony of the group.

Ohfercryinoutloud.

There are honest disagreements about issues and all of a sudden the
people who disagree with you are moles sent by the nefarious
conspiracists?

What's next? Them evil Jewish moneylenders and the antichrist? When
will the pogroms start?

I guess since I'm defending those "trying to upset the harmony" (good
grief) I must be part of the conspiracy. *sigh*

RFM

Seeing That Bob only seem to read thoses Website which support His
Position. I think it in order to answer with some of my own!!!!


http://www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/infra/infra.html
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/bike-saf.html
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/EffectiveAdvocacy/blvswol.htm

Bob these make Great Reading





--- In bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert J. Matter"
<rjmatter@p...> wrote:
> Jeremy F. Parker wrote:
>
> > The conspiracy has had devastating results on the Nethelands
>
> "In fact, the overwhelming evidence is that cycling is much safer
and
> more popular precisely in those countries where bikeways, bike
lanes,
> special intersection modifications, and priority traffic signals
are the
> key to their bicycling policies. As shown in our summer 2000
article
> "Making Walking and Cycling Safer: Lessons from Europe," the modal
split
> share of cycling is more than ten times higher in the Netherlands
(28%),
> Denmark (20%), and Germany (12%) than in the USA, where fewer than
one
> percent of urban trips are made by bike. 2 Moreover, the fatality
rate
> per 100 million bike trips is less than a tenth as high in the
> Netherlands (1.6) and in Germany (2.4) as in the USA (26.3)."
>
> Source:
> Cycling Safety on Bikeways vs. Roads by John Pucher
> http://www.vtpi.org/puchertq2.pdf
>
> Sorry Jeremy. Toxic sludge is NOT good for us.
>
> -Bob Matter
> Hammond, IN
> -----------
> "Within the United States, Davis, California is generally
recognized as
> having the most elaborate system of cycling facilities of any
American
> city. It also has, by far, the highest bicycling modal split share
> (22%), and a very low fatality and accident rate, among the lowest
in
> California. If Forester were correct that separate facilities are so
> dangerous, one would certainly expect Davis to be overwhelmed by
all the
> resulting bicycling injuries and deaths. Yet cycling in Davis is
> extraordinarily safe."  --Prof. John Pucher, Ph.D.

Well  spoken Jerry
  Subsciburers to this may want to reflect on the Fact that the
Canadian Automobile Assoc. has as it's offical policy the Statement
that  Cyclists Should be seperated from Moter Vehicles  where it can
be Done!!! They do not have has their Offical Policy Promotion of
Vehicles other then Moter Vehicles that's for sure.

Jeremy F. Parker wrote:

> The conspiracy has had devastating results on the Nethelands

"In fact, the overwhelming evidence is that cycling is much safer and
more popular precisely in those countries where bikeways, bike lanes,
special intersection modifications, and priority traffic signals are the
key to their bicycling policies. As shown in our summer 2000 article
“Making Walking and Cycling Safer: Lessons from Europe,” the modal split
share of cycling is more than ten times higher in the Netherlands (28%),
Denmark (20%), and Germany (12%) than in the USA, where fewer than one
percent of urban trips are made by bike. 2 Moreover, the fatality rate
per 100 million bike trips is less than a tenth as high in the
Netherlands (1.6) and in Germany (2.4) as in the USA (26.3)."

Source:
Cycling Safety on Bikeways vs. Roads by John Pucher
http://www.vtpi.org/puchertq2.pdf

Sorry Jeremy. Toxic sludge is NOT good for us.

-Bob Matter
Hammond, IN
-----------
"Within the United States, Davis, California is generally recognized as
having the most elaborate system of cycling facilities of any American
city. It also has, by far, the highest bicycling modal split share
(22%), and a very low fatality and accident rate, among the lowest in
California. If Forester were correct that separate facilities are so
dangerous, one would certainly expect Davis to be overwhelmed by all the
resulting bicycling injuries and deaths. Yet cycling in Davis is
extraordinarily safe."  --Prof. John Pucher, Ph.D.

--- In bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com, "Robert J. Matter"
<rjmatter@p...> wrote:

[snip]

> One tool from the bag of dirty tricks PR firms use to undermine
> progressive organizations is to infiltrate them with moles. Besides
> intelligence gathering, the moles disseminate misinformation, seek
to
> create divisions within the group, and try to form alliances with
the
> group's corporate adversaries.

[snip]

Bob Matter is quite right to warn us of these evil world
conspiracies.  The oil companies are **huge**, capable of dominating
small countires, and subverting them completely.

One terrible example is Shell, one of the largest companies in the
world, probably one of the largest companies of any kind.  Shell is
headquartered in tiny little Netherlands.  Note that the full name
of Shell is actually "Royal Dutch Shell".  I don't know how they got
that "royal" prefix, but it shows how they have wormed their way
into the upper reaches of the Dutch power structure.

It gets worse.  In the early 20th century the Dutch national
cyclists organization, the ANWB, made the mistake of allowing
motorists to join, and those motorists were exactly the moles that
Bob talks about, eventually changing the name of the organization to
the Royal Dutch Touring Club (that "royal" again) and making it a
motoring organization.  The moles were cunning.  They also kept the
name ANWB (all Netherlands cyclists union) controlling it as a
puppet cyclists organization, which issued statements about how
cyclists did not belong on the road, because cycling was terribly,
terribly dangerous.  We all know the results of that.

I won't even mention the way Hitler's top bike path man, Dr Hans-
Joachim Schacht, influenced the Dutch as the Germans prepared for
world war II.

The conspiracy has had devastating results on the Nethelands, but it
is world wide.  The moles exist in the USA too, and here in Britain
as well.  We can see them on this very list, trying to upset the
harmony of the group.

Of course, the conspiracy's masters want to get as rich as possible,
and not waste more money than necessary.  The result is that
although we do get moles on this list, I think they are a very poor
class of mole.

Jeremy Parker

I'm reading a good book right now called _Toxic Sludge is Good for You:
Lies, Damn Lies, and the Public Relations Industry_ by John Stauber and
Sheldon Rampton. See http://tinyurl.com/6563m.

Stauber and Rampton write about several covert PR campaigns that have
been waged against environmental, animal rights, vegetarian, and other
progressive grassroots groups by PR companies on behalf of consortiums
of their corporate clients.

One tool from the bag of dirty tricks PR firms use to undermine
progressive organizations is to infiltrate them with moles. Besides
intelligence gathering, the moles disseminate misinformation, seek to
create divisions within the group, and try to form alliances with the
group's corporate adversaries.

No doubt the small but growing carfree/carlite movement has come to the
attention of the associations of auto companies and their suppliers, oil
companies, auto insurance and finance companies, road building lobby,
and investment class.

Imagine the billions of dollars of profits the above mentioned special
interests would lose if cities across the U.S. started mimicking Davis,
California's remarkably successful integrated bikeways plan
http://tinyurl.com/5567j that facilitates an astonishing high 22% modal
split for cycling along with an astonishing low bicycle accident and
fatality rate.

Beware of those claiming toxic sludge is good for you, or bikeways are
bad for you, in the face of your own experience, common sense, and a
preponderance of evidence that shows otherwise.

-Bob Matter
-----------
"Modern industrialized states [are] resentful of a few
cleverly arranged pounds of tubes and spokes. The
cyclist creates everything from almost nothing,
becoming the most energy-efficient of all moving
animals and machines and, as such, has a disingenuous
ability to challenge the entire value system of a
society. Cyclists don't consume enough. They can
propel themselves 1500 pollution-free miles on the
energy equivalent of a gallon of petrol. The bicycle
may be too cheap, too available, too healthy, too
independent and too equitable for its own good. In an
age of excess it is minimal and has the subversive
potential to make people happy in an economy fuelled
by consumer discontent." --Jim McGurn, 1994

--- In bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com, SHYRLEY WILLIAMS
<shyrley.williams@b...> wrote:
>
> The BBC is running  a safe roads campaign and I was
> reading various quotes from drivers discussing how to
> cut road deaths and make roads safer.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/deathontheroads/
>
> This quote stood out in its sheer ignorance..
>
> " We need to make it a criminal offence with harsh
> penalties for cyclists who don't wear helmets. A
> potentially life saving piece of equipment, there is
> no excuse for not wearing them and yet the majority do
> not. We currently have a system whereby this is never
> taken into account and it's always assumed to be the
> fault of the motorist rather than the cyclist who
> fails to take minimal steps to look after himself."
>
>
> So there we have it. It is cyclists without helmets
> that are responsible for road deaths. Not the drivers
> who hit them.
> Sheesh.


This motorist's sentiments are understandable to me.  It is a reaction
to the widely held and ridiculous notion that in any bike-car
collision, the driver is at fault unless proven otherwise.  The
related notion, also widely believed, follows logically from this:
cyclists are sitting ducks out there on the roadways riding among
cars.  If you accept this view, as most people do, it is only
reasonable to conclude that the least these sitting ducks can do is
protect their vulnerable craniums with helmets.

This illustrates the importance of all real cycling advocates to be
working to dispell the false notion that cycling in traffic is
inherently dangerous.   Traffic cycling can be done safely, without
any special facilities (like bike paths and bike lanes), and anyone in
reasonable health can learn to do it.

Serge

From: "Jeremy F. Parker" <
> [About Statistics]
> The question is, do you want to measure things by the mile.  Perhaps
> by the hour, or by the trip, makes more sense.  If you were
> wondering how to spend a Sunday afternoon, between cycling,
> swimming, or mountain climbing, you might want to know the figures
> per hour - swimming is about 5 times as dangerous as cycling by that
> measure, and mountain climbing about 150 times.
....


A lot depends what activity you are looking into.

For a leasure ride, the best is probably by the hour. IOW, how many chances
have you got NOT to survive your Sunray afternoon by car, bike, ski...
For commuting, a "per kilometre" or "per trip" base would be better,
because one commutes twice a day. The per trip basis might be better
because one might find housing closer to work if one plans to travel on
bike or via public transit.


Michel Gagnon -- Montréal (Québec, Canada)
mailto:Michel@... -- http://mgagnon.net

--- In bicyclingadvocacy@yahoogroups.com, SHYRLEY WILLIAMS
<shyrley.williams@b...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Anyone got some easy to undertsnad safety or risk statistics for
cycling vs driving.
>
> I keep being told cycling is more dangerous per mile than driving
but haven't any handy facts all ready and waiting.

Well actually, per mile, it is more dangerous in Britain.  However,
cycling is safer than walking.  Year 2000 GB figures, death rates
per billion km are:

air 0.02
rail 0.4
water 0.8
bus/coach 0.3
car 2.8
van 1.0
motorcycle 130
bike 30
pedestrian 48

The question is, do you want to measure things by the mile.  Perhaps
by the hour, or by the trip, makes more sense.  If you were
wondering how to spend a Sunday afternoon, between cycling,
swimming, or mountain climbing, you might want to know the figures
per hour - swimming is about 5 times as dangerous as cycling by that
measure, and mountain climbing about 150 times.

I seem to recall that driving on motorways is much safer than
average by the mile, but no different from anywhere else by the hour

Alternatively, if you were popping out to buy a loaf of bread, you
might want to know the average per trip.  It might be a different
trip if you were to go by bike

For conversion factors, Britain seems to assume

motorcycle speed 31 km/hr
bike speed 14 km/hr
ped' speed 3.8 km/hr

trip lengths

motorcycle 20 min
bike 12 min
walking 15 min

Conversion factors are, supposedly, from Howard
Collings "Comparative Accident Rates for passengers by Mode of
transport - a Re-Visit", Stats Directorate, DoT, Transport
Statistics 1994, pp12-16

It all ouoght to be on <http://www.transtat.dft.gov.uk> somewhere

Jeremy Parker

crkjlaw wrote:

> It does my soul good to see a familiar cyclist in and around
> Newark. He's about 30 and has Down's Syndrome.

Locally, we have Dave. He's not impaired physically but he has some
significant mental disabilities. He rides all over town on his Rans
Rocket recumbent. I've never seen him on the street; Dave is always on
paths and sidewalks.

Dave saw me driving a few weeks ago, and the next time he talked to me
he lectured me about how easy it is to use a bike to get around town :-)

I have a friend from over 20 years ago who's always been car-free
because his eyesight is horrible and he can't get a license. He got
around everywhere on a bike but he hated it. A couple of years ago he
was ecstatic because he could finally get a driver's license after
laser surgery on his eyes.

RFM

The BBC is running  a safe roads campaign and I was
reading various quotes from drivers discussing how to
cut road deaths and make roads safer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/deathontheroads/

This quote stood out in its sheer ignorance..

" We need to make it a criminal offence with harsh
penalties for cyclists who don't wear helmets. A
potentially life saving piece of equipment, there is
no excuse for not wearing them and yet the majority do
not. We currently have a system whereby this is never
taken into account and it's always assumed to be the
fault of the motorist rather than the cyclist who
fails to take minimal steps to look after himself."


So there we have it. It is cyclists without helmets
that are responsible for road deaths. Not the drivers
who hit them.
Sheesh.
This is the sort of moron who would blame a shooting
victim for his own death. Obviously if you don't wear
body armour and you get shot, its your own fault.

Shyrley



=====
Suburbia: Where they rip up all the trees and name streets after them.






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bikerat@... wrote:
>
> ============================================================
> From: Jwar11235@...
> Kimberly,
>
> I would be interested in being on your mailing list for the club newsletter.
> =============
>>From Kimberly Cooper:
> The only way to be on our mailing list is to become a member.  If you're still
interested, you can find the membership form at www.stpetecycling.com .
>
> Anyone visiting or living in the Tampa Bay (Florida) area is welcome to
bicycle with us.  Bicycling is free.
>
> The best day to come is Saturday or on major holidays because that's when we
have the most ride choices.  After the ride, many of us like to meet up at
downtown St. Petersburg restaurants and eat breakfast together.
>
> I hope some of you can join us sometime on your vacation.

In observance of the Florida Cycling Boycott I will NOT be vacationing
in Florida this winter.

As long as FDOT kow tows to the millionaires squatting on the public ROW
along A1A and does not construct 5' wide bike lanes on both sides, the
boycott will remain in place. And I will observe it.

-Bob Matter
-----------
"While the Chicago bike lane network has spurred a dramatic increase in
cycling on streets with new bike lanes, the crash rate per intersection
has decreased by nearly 10 percent, and mid-block collisions have
declined by 15.4 percent."
     --Bike Traffic, Chicagoland Bicycle Federation, April 2004
       http://www.biketraffic.org/biketraffic/BT0404/