How about Lake Sawer? Tapeworms' roots pretty slick now.....Sawer is a little
muddy going in, but less roots to break things on...We've got 5 of us
game....Lets decide where.

The slick roots are part of the charm of PNW mountain biking! I'm up for the
worm either Sat or Sun if anyone else is.

Tom Fitzpatrick

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Dan Fenton
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:08 PM
   Subject: ride this Sat. ?


   How about Lake Sawer? Tapeworms' roots pretty slick now.....Sawer is a little
muddy going in, but less roots to break things on...We've got 5 of us
game....Lets decide where.






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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   Checked by AVG.
   Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1843 - Release Date: 12/11/2008
8:36 AM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've received the following (was attachment) from Ray Benish, a fellow board
member of Friends of St. Edward State Park. Ray added that his daughter Alicia
will be home at Christmas and talking about her Costa Rica with REI (don't know
if there's a public talk planned or not).

"To Tom Fitzpatrick:

Tom- this is a general  inquiry to ask if your mountain bike club or any of its
members would be interested in putting together a group for mountain biking in
Costa Rica.

Our daughter Alicia Benish is working in the Peace Corp in Costa Rica.  Alicia
is in the rural economic development group and is posted to a small mountain
community, Las Mellizas, located only one kilometer from the Panamian border.

Alicia is now coordinating the delivery of ten mountain bikes donated to the
village that were obtained through a Peace Corp grant program.  When she told me
about this project I happened to think that Las Mellizas may be an excellent
place for USA mountain bikers to enjoy their sport at a reasonable price.

Las Mellizas is an excellent location for experienced mountain bikers.  Some
attributes are:

1)high altitude nestled in a mountainous region with many kilometers of unpaved
roads and trails to select from for varied riding terrain; 2) nice and
reasonably priced  accommodations in the La  Amistad Lodge located just on the
edge of Las Mellizas 3)the community is located adjacent to the largest natural
preserve in Central America Parque Internacional La Amistad at 1,950 sq km is an
indigenous and biological reserve; 4) friendly local  people who are small
coffee growers ; 5) La Amistad Lodge is located  on one of the oldest 
established organic coffee plantations; and 6)opportunity for cross cultural
learning experiences and wildlife viewing outside of the normal "tourist" type
contacts.

If there is serious interest we could more accurately price a trip for 10-15
mountain bikers using the Lodge as the base for daily excursions.  Group rates
for lodging in San Jose and at La Amistad as well as for transportation from San
Jose to Las Mellizas should keep the prices down.  Alicia knows the lodge owner
and manager and could inquire as to a cost range that would include meals. 
Alicia could be a point of contact within Country and for Las Mellizas to assist
however please note she is not a paid travel agent and would expect any net
benefits to flow to the community (guide services, etc.) in the form of payment
for needed services for the group. Let me know if this is of interest.

I have included two links to the La Amistad Lodge below.

La Amistad Lodge at http://www.laamistad.com/ingles/ingles.html  
http://www.1costaricalink.com/eng/web/parks/pv-laamistad.htm

Ray Benish





Two pictures to show typical roads in the area of Las Mellizas.  Of course there
are kilometers of trails in the surrounding region as trails are the main
arteries for travel and mobility."








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not sure why the links didn't take. Trying again...



Quicktime:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1994&f
type=quicktime

Flash:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1994&f
type=flash



Before there was a Bike Park:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs265



THE bike park - Colannade:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1992&f
type=quicktime



http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1993&f
type=quicktime



http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1995&f
type=quicktime





Ride on,
Michele "Kona Girl"
    __~o
   -\_<,
(*)/' (*)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, Well it look like this morning they made the front page of Bradfords
site so this link will work. Nice little write up too!



http://www.vrseattle.com/



thanks


Michele "Kona Girl"





From: Southern, Michele R
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:43 AM
To: 'bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: Re:Colannade - Virtually?!?!?!



Not sure why the links didn't take. Trying again...



Quicktime:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1994&f
type=quicktime

Flash:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1994&f
type=flash



Before there was a Bike Park:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs265



THE bike park - Colannade:

http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1992&f
type=quicktime



http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1993&f
type=quicktime



http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1995&f
type=quicktime





Ride on,
Michele "Kona Girl"
    __~o
   -\_<,
(*)/' (*)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Michele,
Thanks for posting these!  The links actually worked if you copied the
entire address - on two lines.  They are beautiful!

Linda

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:42 AM, Southern, Michele R <
Michele.r.southern@...> wrote:

>   Not sure why the links didn't take. Trying again...
>
>
> Quicktime:
>
> http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1994&f
> type=quicktime
>
> Flash:
>
> http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1994&f
> type=flash
>
> Before there was a Bike Park:
>
> http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs265
>
> THE bike park - Colannade:
>
> http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1992&f
> type=quicktime
>
> http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1993&f
> type=quicktime
>
> http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1995&f
> type=quicktime
>
> Ride on,
> Michele "Kona Girl"
> __~o
> -\_<,
> (*)/' (*)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Links longer than 80 characters get "wrapped" at the line width that's
enforced by Yahoo Groups.

I think most email clients will put the link back together if you place
it within < > brackets, like this:

<http://www.vrseattle.com/pages/vrview_fs.php?cat_id=630&vrs_id=vrs1994&ftype=qu\
icktime>

or to be sure they'll work, you can go to tinyurl.com to create a
forwarding link like this:

http://tinyurl.com/5l677y

/Maarten.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008508822_cyclist12m.html
or alt version same url
http://tinyurl.com/5dp4ww





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tragic...

   The old guy that hit him and killed him was not charged..... I'm sorry, but if
any of us make an illegal left turn or fail to yield the right of way during a
left turn, we kind of expect to get a traffic ticket, apparently all you have to
do to get out of it is kill somebody because then its an "accident"    doesnt
make sence.

   The family didn't seem mad but I am,  the old guys driving privlige should be
restricted if he cant see or pay attention... somebody could get hurt.....

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: wendy williams
   To: bbtc list
   Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:14 AM
   Subject: ot: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car


   http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008508822_cyclist12m.html
   or alt version same url
   http://tinyurl.com/5dp4ww

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not that it changes anything, but the finer points of this are "not charged"
does not mean not getting a ticket.  Not charged in this case more has to do
with whether he is charged with homicide, which needs intent or alcohol/drugs in
your system to be considered.  He will end up most likely receiving tickets and
possibly misdemeanor tickets, but that would be determined by the facts. 
Chances are also good his license to drive will be reviewed by way of testing. 
All this has to do with the way the laws read, and at that level I agree it is
deplorable more cannot be done.  Nothing will bring this person back, but there
will be civil issues to be dealt with as well.

I once saw a flagger using a crosswalk wearing his orange flagging vest when it
said "walk" get hit by a car, and a cop car was right there to witness it.  In
the end the driver of the car only got a citation for failure to yield to the
pedestrian because he simply failed to see the flagger.  No laws in place
allowed for any other charge.

Remember, when cycling in traffic, you CAN be "dead" right.  If your assumption
isn't that no one can see you, then you only increase your chances of injury or
death.

Mark K.

To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: dirtdude21@...
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 07:23:11 -0800
Subject: Re: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car




















             tragic...



   The old guy that hit him and killed him was not charged..... I'm sorry, but if
any of us make an illegal left turn or fail to yield the right of way during a
left turn, we kind of expect to get a traffic ticket, apparently all you have to
do to get out of it is kill somebody because then its an "accident"    doesnt
make sence.



The family didn't seem mad but I am,  the old guys driving privlige should be
restricted if he cant see or pay attention... somebody could get hurt.....



   ----- Original Message -----

   From: wendy williams

   To: bbtc list

   Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:14 AM

   Subject: ot: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008508822_cyclist12m.html

   or alt version same url

   http://tinyurl.com/5dp4ww



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















_________________________________________________________________
Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_1220\
08

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A tragedy.

There has been an article or two in Bicycling recently, on a number of
bicycle/car accidents where the victim is a bicyclist, the driver of
the motor vehicle is clearly at fault, and there are no consequences
to the driver. It seems to be a common pattern nationally.
(As I write that, I remember the oncoming driver last night, for whom
the concept of "yield to oncoming traffic when turning left" didn't
seem to exist. And I was in a car. It's not just when we're on 2
wheels. The roads are a dangerous place. period.)
Not sure how much empirical support there is for the notion that
threatened punishment shapes behavior all that much, though punishment
appeals to the "eye for an eye" ogre in the back of the brain.

I do hope to live to see the day where we cyclists are perceived as
and treated as first class citizens on the roads.
In the meantime, constant vigilance, hi-viz yellow and lots of "eye
candy" (flashing lights of various colors) seems to be our best hope.

And yes, I continue to ride.

ronald

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 7:23 AM, Brian <dirtdude21@...> wrote:
> tragic...
>
>  The old guy that hit him and killed him was not charged..... I'm sorry, but
if any of us make an illegal left turn or fail to yield the right of way during
a left turn, we kind of expect to get a traffic ticket, apparently all you have
to do to get out of it is kill somebody because then its an "accident"    doesnt
make sence.
>
>  The family didn't seem mad but I am,  the old guys driving privlige should be
restricted if he cant see or pay attention... somebody could get hurt.....
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: wendy williams
>  To: bbtc list
>  Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:14 AM
>  Subject: ot: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car
>
>
>  http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008508822_cyclist12m.html
>  or alt version same url
>  http://tinyurl.com/5dp4ww
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Do you support the BBTC? Please help us protect and create trails through 
your donation or volunteer effort. http://bbtc.org/support
>
> Have questions, comments, or concerns?  Please contact us; see
http://bbtc.org/contact for contact info.
>
> This is an un-moderated forum hosted by BBTC.  No comments on this list should
be construed as official announcements of the BBTC unless otherwise noted.Yahoo!
Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Ok, so I'm interested in getting a helmet cam and wanted to hear from
the techies on some good options for getting one.

Lisa

It's easy to sit in judgment of others, but so hard to understand how an
accident happens when you're not involved. One thing for sure, the cyclists
wife has a huge heart, not many people are able to cope with such a loss and
remain compassionate and understanding. We all know there are many people on
the road who are not mindful of bikes and riders. I would imagine, and I
have no way of knowing, the driver might have been focused on the familiar;
that may or may not have included bicycles. On a good day, the mind plays
tricks on people; we see and hear based on our past experiences; it's called
the pattern recognition process. It's so important to approach situations
and be able to challenge your perception; the mind has the power to distort
and or cloud your vision; what you think you see, may or may not be a
reality.

I came close to hitting a pedestrian yesterday. I was stopped at a light
where you are allowed to turn left after stopping; you can turn left on a
red light. I watched and waited till there were no oncoming cars, checked
the cross walk (the crossing light said Don't Walk) and started to take my
foot off the brake. Just as I started to put my foot on the accelerator
pedal, I saw the pedestrian; I couldn't see him at first, because the car in
the next lane blocked my line of sight. Had I not caught the movement out of
the corner of my eye, I might have hit him. This was a close call; even
though my car didn't move, it was enough to shake me up. My point is, I
seriously doubt the driver of the car set out to hurt anyone when he left
the house and I would like to think he was not a hater; my guess is he never
saw the bike and rider.

My heart goes out to the family, they must be overwhelmed with grief. It's
one thing to read / to know about auto accidents, but when a cyclist is
involved, the experience is closer to home.

I sincerely wish all of you a safe and happy holiday,
bobh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Klinke" <herrklinke@...>
To: <dirtdude21@...>; <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car



Not that it changes anything, but the finer points of this are "not charged"
does not mean not getting a ticket.  Not charged in this case more has to do
with whether he is charged with homicide, which needs intent or
alcohol/drugs in your system to be considered.  He will end up most likely
receiving tickets and possibly misdemeanor tickets, but that would be
determined by the facts.  Chances are also good his license to drive will be
reviewed by way of testing.  All this has to do with the way the laws read,
and at that level I agree it is deplorable more cannot be done.  Nothing
will bring this person back, but there will be civil issues to be dealt with
as well.

I once saw a flagger using a crosswalk wearing his orange flagging vest when
it said "walk" get hit by a car, and a cop car was right there to witness
it.  In the end the driver of the car only got a citation for failure to
yield to the pedestrian because he simply failed to see the flagger.  No
laws in place allowed for any other charge.

Remember, when cycling in traffic, you CAN be "dead" right.  If your
assumption isn't that no one can see you, then you only increase your
chances of injury or death.

Mark K.

To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
From: dirtdude21@...
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 07:23:11 -0800
Subject: Re: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car




















             tragic...



   The old guy that hit him and killed him was not charged..... I'm sorry,
but if any of us make an illegal left turn or fail to yield the right of way
during a left turn, we kind of expect to get a traffic ticket, apparently
all you have to do to get out of it is kill somebody because then its an
"accident"    doesnt make sence.



The family didn't seem mad but I am,  the old guys driving privlige should
be restricted if he cant see or pay attention... somebody could get
hurt.....



   ----- Original Message -----

   From: wendy williams

   To: bbtc list

   Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:14 AM

   Subject: ot: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008508822_cyclist12m.html

   or alt version same url

   http://tinyurl.com/5dp4ww



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















_________________________________________________________________
Suspicious message? There's an alert for that.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_1220\
08

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------


Do you support the BBTC? Please help us protect and create trails through
your donation or volunteer effort. http://bbtc.org/support

Have questions, comments, or concerns?  Please contact us; see
http://bbtc.org/contact for contact info.

This is an un-moderated forum hosted by BBTC.  No comments on this list
should be construed as official announcements of the BBTC unless otherwise
noted.Yahoo! Groups Links

In a situation like this it is standard procedure to not charge the driver until
the accident investigation has been reviewed. The police are exercising caution
so that the proper charges are made. In correct charges could in themself
jeopardize the case.

I know the road in question. A friend live off of a side street near the top. It
is a lot like Juanita Drive in the sight lines are terrible. I don't know
exactly where this occurred but there are places on this hill where making a
left turn should probably not be allowed.

-Bernie

Hi All, below is the weather report from NOAA, they're saying we're in for the
longest stretch of cold weather since 1990. Drive safe, dress warm; it's cold
outside.

I got cabin fever this afternoon and decided to head out for a ride. I left the
house about 6:00PM and made it home just before 8:00PM. I wore my ski gloves and
neoprene liners in my 661 launch shoes; both gloves and shoes have plenty of
room to allow for circulation. By the time I got home, my toes and fingers were
getting numb. Be careful out there,  the temps are supposed to drop below
freezing and remain there through Monday. bobh


THE LONGEST STREAK OF COLD WEATHER SINCE DECEMBER 1990 IS ON THE
WAY...

WHILE THE POSSIBILITY OF LOWLAND SNOW SHOWERS IS IN THE FORECAST AT
TIMES OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS...IT IS THE FRIGIDLY COLD TEMPERATURES
EXPECTED OVER THE NEXT WEEK THAT COULD HAVE THE GREATEST IMPACT ON
WESTERN WASHINGTON.

AN ARCTIC AIR MASS WILL STREAM INTO WESTERN WASHINGTON TONIGHT AND
SUNDAY...IN THE WAKE OF AN ARCTIC FRONT MOVING SOUTH THROUGH THE
AREA THIS AFTERNOON. TEMPERATURES WILL FALL BELOW FREEZING ACROSS
WESTERN WASHINGTON TONIGHT WITH MANY SPOTS DIPPING INTO THE LOWER TO
MID 20S. MOST OF THE REGION WILL REMAIN BELOW FREEZING ON SUNDAY
WITH AFTERNOON HIGHS ONLY IN THE MID 20S TO LOWER 30S. IN ADDITION
WINDY CONDITIONS WILL ACCOMPANY THE ARRIVAL OF THE ARCTIC AIR MASS
TONIGHT AND SUNDAY...ESPECIALLY IN THE NORTH INTERIOR OF WESTERN
WASHINGTON.

SNOW SHOWERS TONIGHT AND SUNDAY COULD PRODUCE LOCAL ACCUMULATIONS OF
1 TO 3 INCHES...CREATING SLIPPERY ROADS AND SIDEWALKS. ROADWAYS AND
OTHER SURFACES THAT ARE ALREADY WET WILL QUICKLY BECOME ICY AND
DANGEROUS. THE FRIGID WEATHER COULD BURST OUTDOOR PIPES AND ENDANGER
PETS AS WELL. WIND CHILL IS ANOTHER THING THAT CANNOT BE IGNORED. IN
THE NORTHWEST INTERIOR THE COMBINATION OF SUB-FREEZING TEMPERATURES
AND WINDY CONDITIONS WILL CREATE APPARENT TEMPERATURES NEAR ZERO
DEGREES FAHRENHEIT...LOW ENOUGH TO CAUSE FROSTBITE TO EXPOSED SKIN.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

my bad,
     apparently the driver was sited for traffic infractions, the way I read the
article he was off the hook because no 'charges' were filed, so those of you
(like me) that do not know police lingo, you can be sited for things OR charged
for things. One apparently,  worse than the other.

   I think I was just angry, probably a fairly normal reaction when one of our
own is down, now I'm mostly just feeling sad for the guys wife and family.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: wendy williams
   To: bbtc list
   Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:14 AM
   Subject: ot: local commuting cyclist killed in collision w/ car


   http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008508822_cyclist12m.html
   or alt version same url
   http://tinyurl.com/5dp4ww

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Another off-topic local road riding bit of news.
See
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008474326_opin07jimvesely.html

One response
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=833115&hp
I like where the Stranger asks if the Times wants to tax pedestrians for their
use of sidewalks.

The Times seems remarkably out of touch, making statements like:
"Cyclists, the most green of our population, would embrace the annual
fee schedule as a way of ensuring more proactive cycling activity
before our various boards and commissions."
When does a tax on an activity ever encourage that activity??

Out of touch again with generalizations like:
"King County already imposes a user fee on cyclists. It's illegal to
ride a bike without a helmet — something dads and their children should
remember as they take to the sidewalks on those first trips with
Christmas bikes."
Wonder why he assumes it's fathers who teach the kids to ride?
It was my mother who taught me. Dad was at work.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Obviously the times proposal to tax cyclists is flawed.  Imho,  this is
flawed not while it singles out bicycles,  but the basis for taxation in
general.

What the proposal is driving at is that people should be taxed what on what
they use.   To me this is flawed for two reasons,  first,  it is a
logistical nightmare to tax people on what they use, unless we put an
electronic chip and monitor them 24/7  ( drove over this bridge,  eats
heavily subsidized dairy products,  walked around greenlake on paved trail)
Second, it strips away the idea that our tax system is a progressive system
based on the fact that those who can more easily afford to pay for our
infrastructure are asked to do so.

If we get lost in the discussion of what level of cyclists  ( pedal
commuting every day on the burke vs. mtn. biking on state lands vs. kids
biking to their friends house ) should or shouldn't be taxed then we'll
always be in a quagmire of an argument.

------
And speaking of bike commuting, especially around seattle,  I think it's
good that the city has recognized that bikes use the roads.  But this huge
project of painting bike lanes and sharrows,  seems to have some obvious
issues to me.

The biggest is creating thin areas of parking right next to a bike lane,
where cars are right  against the bike lane.  This creates a great threat of
being doored,  and a bunch of these are on downhill sections.

Also, yesterday I biked to downtown,  and all the bike racks have been
removed from westlake park.


--- ken h.



On 12/14/08 8:55 AM, "wendy williams" <wendy_wms@...> wrote:

> Another off-topic local road riding bit of news.
> See
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008474326_opin07jimvesely.html
>
> One response
> http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=833115&hp
> I like where the Stranger asks if the Times wants to tax pedestrians for their
> use of sidewalks.
>
> The Times seems remarkably out of touch, making statements like:
> "Cyclists, the most green of our population, would embrace the annual
> fee schedule as a way of ensuring more proactive cycling activity
> before our various boards and commissions."
> When does a tax on an activity ever encourage that activity??
>
> Out of touch again with generalizations like:
> "King County already imposes a user fee on cyclists. It's illegal to
> ride a bike without a helmet — something dads and their children should
> remember as they take to the sidewalks on those first trips with
> Christmas bikes."
> Wonder why he assumes it's fathers who teach the kids to ride?
> It was my mother who taught me. Dad was at work.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Do you support the BBTC? Please help us protect and create trails through
> your donation or volunteer effort. http://bbtc.org/support
>
> Have questions, comments, or concerns?  Please contact us; see
> http://bbtc.org/contact for contact info.
>
> This is an un-moderated forum hosted by BBTC.  No comments on this list should
> be construed as official announcements of the BBTC unless otherwise
> noted.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi All, I have a couple questions and would appreciate some suggestions. On last
nights ride, my fingers got numb, even though II used my heavy gloves; my toes
were a wee numb too. Therefore, I'd like to know which gloves and bike friendly
non-clipless shoes are or were the warmest you've ever owned. I looked online
for gloves, but nothing jumped out and said they were the warmest. Thanks in
advance for your suggestions. bobh

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob, I am no help on the shoes, tho' will be interested in responses since I'm a
T2 diabetic. On protecting hands from cold, some folks swear by Moose Mits; go
here for more info.  http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=473737  These go on
the bike, like the old Vetter Hippos the motorcycle cops use.

Tom Fitz

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bob Hollander
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:24 PM
   Subject: Gear Check Please


   Hi All, I have a couple questions and would appreciate some suggestions. On
last nights ride, my fingers got numb, even though II used my heavy gloves; my
toes were a wee numb too. Therefore, I'd like to know which gloves and bike
friendly non-clipless shoes are or were the warmest you've ever owned. I looked
online for gloves, but nothing jumped out and said they were the warmest. Thanks
in advance for your suggestions. bobh

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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   Checked by AVG.
   Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: 12/14/2008
12:28 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The warmest shoes I've owned and love are the Lake MXZ302.  They are VERY
warm.  I've ridden in temps in teens and have been comfortable.  They are
waterproof also.  Gloves!  Well, this time of year I like riding my
singlespeed so I wear lobster mittens with glove liners and stay very warm.
It doesn't matter that I don't have dexterity as all I need to control are
the brakes.



From: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tom Fitzpatrick
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:29 PM
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Gear Check Please




Bob, I am no help on the shoes, tho' will be interested in responses since
I'm a T2 diabetic. On protecting hands from cold, some folks swear by Moose
Mits; go here for more info. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=473737
These go on the bike, like the old Vetter Hippos the motorcycle cops use.

Tom Fitz

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Hollander
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:24 PM
Subject: Gear Check Please

Hi All, I have a couple questions and would appreciate some suggestions. On
last nights ride, my fingers got numb, even though II used my heavy gloves;
my toes were a wee numb too. Therefore, I'd like to know which gloves and
bike friendly non-clipless shoes are or were the warmest you've ever owned.
I looked online for gloves, but nothing jumped out and said they were the
warmest. Thanks in advance for your suggestions. bobh

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: 12/14/2008
12:28 PM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Joe, the Lakes are great, I used them for years. However, now that I'm
riding with flat pedals, I need a warm shoe that grips well.

One of the most significant differences in the way you ride compared to my
style:>). is that you ride so fast you create enough friction to heat the space
around your bike:>); sort of like a rocket reentering our atmosphere:>).
bobh
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Joe Martin
   To: 'Tom Fitzpatrick' ; bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:54 PM
   Subject: RE: Gear Check Please


   The warmest shoes I've owned and love are the Lake MXZ302. They are VERY
   warm. I've ridden in temps in teens and have been comfortable. They are
   waterproof also. Gloves! Well, this time of year I like riding my
   singlespeed so I wear lobster mittens with glove liners and stay very warm.
   It doesn't matter that I don't have dexterity as all I need to control are
   the brakes.

   From: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com] On
   Behalf Of Tom Fitzpatrick
   Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:29 PM
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: Gear Check Please

   Bob, I am no help on the shoes, tho' will be interested in responses since
   I'm a T2 diabetic. On protecting hands from cold, some folks swear by Moose
   Mits; go here for more info. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=473737
   These go on the bike, like the old Vetter Hippos the motorcycle cops use.

   Tom Fitz

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bob Hollander
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:24 PM
   Subject: Gear Check Please

   Hi All, I have a couple questions and would appreciate some suggestions. On
   last nights ride, my fingers got numb, even though II used my heavy gloves;
   my toes were a wee numb too. Therefore, I'd like to know which gloves and
   bike friendly non-clipless shoes are or were the warmest you've ever owned.
   I looked online for gloves, but nothing jumped out and said they were the
   warmest. Thanks in advance for your suggestions. bobh

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   ----------------------------------------------------------

   No virus found in this incoming message.
   Checked by AVG.
   Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: 12/14/2008
   12:28 PM

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's not air friction..it's gas that creates the bubble of warm air around
me!



Sorry, I didn't realize you were on flats.  With that said it seems that a
whole different category of boots would be in order but I don't have any
recommendations.



Be careful out there!  See you soon.



Joe



From: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Hollander
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:01 PM
To: 'Tom Fitzpatrick'; bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com; Joe Martin
Subject: Re: Gear Check Please



Thanks Joe, the Lakes are great, I used them for years. However, now that
I'm riding with flat pedals, I need a warm shoe that grips well.

One of the most significant differences in the way you ride compared to my
style:>). is that you ride so fast you create enough friction to heat the
space around your bike:>); sort of like a rocket reentering our
atmosphere:>).
bobh
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Martin
To: 'Tom Fitzpatrick' ; bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: Gear Check Please

The warmest shoes I've owned and love are the Lake MXZ302. They are VERY
warm. I've ridden in temps in teens and have been comfortable. They are
waterproof also. Gloves! Well, this time of year I like riding my
singlespeed so I wear lobster mittens with glove liners and stay very warm.
It doesn't matter that I don't have dexterity as all I need to control are
the brakes.

From: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Tom Fitzpatrick
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:29 PM
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Gear Check Please

Bob, I am no help on the shoes, tho' will be interested in responses since
I'm a T2 diabetic. On protecting hands from cold, some folks swear by Moose
Mits; go here for more info. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=473737
These go on the bike, like the old Vetter Hippos the motorcycle cops use.

Tom Fitz

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Hollander
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:bbtcmembers%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:24 PM
Subject: Gear Check Please

Hi All, I have a couple questions and would appreciate some suggestions. On
last nights ride, my fingers got numb, even though II used my heavy gloves;
my toes were a wee numb too. Therefore, I'd like to know which gloves and
bike friendly non-clipless shoes are or were the warmest you've ever owned.
I looked online for gloves, but nothing jumped out and said they were the
warmest. Thanks in advance for your suggestions. bobh

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: 12/14/2008
12:28 PM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob - I ride flat pedals and wear Lake shoes in the winter, and have
never had any problem with grip.

Another option is a good waterproof hiking boot.

--- In bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Hollander" <bmhollan@...>
wrote:
>
> Thanks Joe, the Lakes are great, I used them for years. However,
now that I'm riding with flat pedals, I need a warm shoe that grips
well.
>
> One of the most significant differences in the way you ride
compared to my style:>). is that you ride so fast you create enough
friction to heat the space around your bike:>); sort of like a rocket
reentering our atmosphere:>).
> bobh
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Joe Martin
>   To: 'Tom Fitzpatrick' ; bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:54 PM
>   Subject: RE: Gear Check Please
>
>
>   The warmest shoes I've owned and love are the Lake MXZ302. They
are VERY
>   warm. I've ridden in temps in teens and have been comfortable.
They are
>   waterproof also. Gloves! Well, this time of year I like riding my
>   singlespeed so I wear lobster mittens with glove liners and stay
very warm.
>   It doesn't matter that I don't have dexterity as all I need to
control are
>   the brakes.
>
>   From: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com] On
>   Behalf Of Tom Fitzpatrick
>   Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:29 PM
>   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: Gear Check Please
>
>   Bob, I am no help on the shoes, tho' will be interested in
responses since
>   I'm a T2 diabetic. On protecting hands from cold, some folks
swear by Moose
>   Mits; go here for more info.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=473737
>   These go on the bike, like the old Vetter Hippos the motorcycle
cops use.
>
>   Tom Fitz
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Bob Hollander
>   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bbtcmembers%
40yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:24 PM
>   Subject: Gear Check Please
>
>   Hi All, I have a couple questions and would appreciate some
suggestions. On
>   last nights ride, my fingers got numb, even though II used my
heavy gloves;
>   my toes were a wee numb too. Therefore, I'd like to know which
gloves and
>   bike friendly non-clipless shoes are or were the warmest you've
ever owned.
>   I looked online for gloves, but nothing jumped out and said they
were the
>   warmest. Thanks in advance for your suggestions. bobh
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>   ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>   No virus found in this incoming message.
>   Checked by AVG.
>   Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date:
12/14/2008
>   12:28 PM
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I think Igor uses hiking boots on flats (in the summer anyway. =)
I bet you could get a warm pair of those.....

I'll cast another vote for the (Pearl Izumi) Lobster gloves.
They've had them at Performance in the past.

===========
>
>
>
> Sorry, I didn't realize you were on flats. With that said it seems that a
> whole different category of boots would be in order but I don't have any
> recommendations.
>

wonder what his lighting system consisted of,  tires, brakes.




_________________________________________________________________
You live life online. So we put Windows on the web.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

31 miles, over 7000 ft of elevation gain in the Santa Ana Mountings of Sothern
Cal.  Temps starting out in the mid 30's and high 50's during the daytime. 
Started off w/ arm and leg warmers but quickly stipped those off.

Very cool trails and great people.  For those who know the area, we went up Holy
Jim, up to the top of Upper Holy Jim, down Coldwater, up Indian Truck Trail,
Main Divide, down Trabuco to the vehicles.  Finished after dark.

Kevin
"A Caffeinated Hophead"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am also a fan of the Pear Izumi Lobster gloves.  Have not solved the feet
problem yet.

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:16 PM, <gulchrider@...> wrote:

>   I think Igor uses hiking boots on flats (in the summer anyway. =)
> I bet you could get a warm pair of those.....
>
> I'll cast another vote for the (Pearl Izumi) Lobster gloves.
> They've had them at Performance in the past.
>
> ===========
> >
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I didn't realize you were on flats. With that said it seems that a
> > whole different category of boots would be in order but I don't have any
> > recommendations.
> >
>
>
>



--
Corrina Marote

The greatest weapon against stress is our ability to choose one thought over
another.  William James

http://seashe.typepad.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

my only complaint regarding them is that I end up with very damp (but
warm) hands. Maybe I'm just at the end of the bell curve in terms of
how much I sweat.

I've also found TJMaxx a source for decent waterproof, warm gloves and
mittens (even lobster style), at good prices.

r

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Corrina Marote
<corrina.marote@...> wrote:
> I am also a fan of the Pear Izumi Lobster gloves.  Have not solved the feet
> problem yet.
>
> On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:16 PM, <gulchrider@...> wrote:
>
>>   I think Igor uses hiking boots on flats (in the summer anyway. =)
>> I bet you could get a warm pair of those.....
>>
>> I'll cast another vote for the (Pearl Izumi) Lobster gloves.
>> They've had them at Performance in the past.
>>
>> ===========
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sorry, I didn't realize you were on flats. With that said it seems that a
>> > whole different category of boots would be in order but I don't have any
>> > recommendations.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Corrina Marote
>
> The greatest weapon against stress is our ability to choose one thought over
> another.  William James
>
> http://seashe.typepad.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Do you support the BBTC? Please help us protect and create trails through 
your donation or volunteer effort. http://bbtc.org/support
>
> Have questions, comments, or concerns?  Please contact us; see
http://bbtc.org/contact for contact info.
>
> This is an un-moderated forum hosted by BBTC.  No comments on this list should
be construed as official announcements of the BBTC unless otherwise noted.Yahoo!
Groups Links
>
>
>
>

This is ridiculous... how do we fight this?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "wendy williams" <wendy_wms@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:55 AM
To: "bbtc list" <bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: OT Road Riding Again: Seattle Times wants to tax cyclists

> Another off-topic local road riding bit of news.
> See
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008474326_opin07jimvesely.html
>
> One response
> http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=833115&hp
> I like where the Stranger asks if the Times wants to tax pedestrians for
> their use of sidewalks.
>
> The Times seems remarkably out of touch, making statements like:
> "Cyclists, the most green of our population, would embrace the annual
> fee schedule as a way of ensuring more proactive cycling activity
> before our various boards and commissions."
> When does a tax on an activity ever encourage that activity??
>
> Out of touch again with generalizations like:
> "King County already imposes a user fee on cyclists. It's illegal to
> ride a bike without a helmet - something dads and their children should
> remember as they take to the sidewalks on those first trips with
> Christmas bikes."
> Wonder why he assumes it's fathers who teach the kids to ride?
> It was my mother who taught me. Dad was at work.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Do you support the BBTC? Please help us protect and create trails through
> your donation or volunteer effort. http://bbtc.org/support
>
> Have questions, comments, or concerns?  Please contact us; see
> http://bbtc.org/contact for contact info.
>
> This is an un-moderated forum hosted by BBTC.  No comments on this list
> should be construed as official announcements of the BBTC unless otherwise
> noted.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>