I'll bet Bob's gone through a couple of those Prodigy bottom brackets for
the same reason I have.  It does loosely have to do with the larger diameter
crank bolts, but more specifically the larger diameter bottom bracket spindle -
the part the cranks go on.  Since the spindle is larger and bikes' bottom
brackets are still the same old standard size (for the most part), that leaves
less space in between for the bearings to go in, and that means smaller
bearings.  So what you've got is a bottom bracket whose spindle is less likely
to break off and stab you in the ankle when you case a big phat landing, but
whose bearings poop out on you in a couple months of regular XC use.  When you
own a Prodigy - a bottom bracket without replaceable bearings - that means
you're out a bottom bracket.
     But this was about cranksets, wasn't it.  Heh.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jonathan Dombek
   To: 'Bob Bournique' ; bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:07 AM
   Subject: RE: Crankset?


   JD's opinion



   With XTR you can only use a shimano BB, end of story.



   With Race Face you have many BB manu's to choose from FSA, Race Face,
   Truativ are ones that I know of.  (they all make their own cranks, too)
   I think Bob's note about breaking BB's is typ. for the XC versions of
   the splined drives [I'm told that this is partly due to the larger
   diameter crank bolt used in the spline drives, and the desire to get
   them as light as possible.doesn't leave a whole lot of strength for much
   else than XC ie. won't hold up well to getting whacked on logs, slammed
   to the ground, thrown of bridges, etc].  Since, I've have BB issues
   myself on my Race Face cranks (which I love), I'm moving to a Freeride
   BB or as usual giving up weight for strength and expect I'll be living
   large.



   -----Original Message-----
   From: Bob Bournique [mailto:bbournique@...]
   Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 7:12 AM
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: Crankset?



   My shortest opinion ever...
   FSA cranksets work great and are reasonably priced. Very happy with
   Mine.
   Not with the Race Face Prodigy BB that it's attached to. On my second
   one in
   two seasons.
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Rapid Descent Racing [mailto:azonicrider@...]
   Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 7:09 AM
   To: Chris Newman; bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: Crankset?


   Have you thought about FSA cranks at all?

   --- Chris Newman <cnewmanc@...> wrote:
   > I'm building up a new frame and have narrowed my
   > crankset choices to two. I'm guessing that somone
   > will have an opinion on whether the Shimano XTR
   > (2002) or the Race Face Isis Turbine (2003) is the
   > better choice. Why should I pick one over the other?
   > I've always run Shimano but like the idea of being
   > able to remove the large chainring, which isn't an
   > option with the XTR. Whadaya think?
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been
   > removed]
   >
   >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since it only takes about an hour to drive up to Burlington and then,
maybe another 20 minutes to drive across to Ft Ebey from there,
taking roads the whole way is almost going to be the same as the
boat. It could quite possibly be even be faster if you take the extra
traffic at the Edmonds ferry terminal into consideration. It'll be
less of a headache, that's for sure. I've always liked Deception Pass
too. Once you get onto Hwy 20, it's one of the nicer drives around.

--- In bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com, knobbies@a... wrote:
> It's been called to my attention that the Mukilteo/Clinton ferry is
down this
> weekend cause of work at the Mukilteo dock.  However, they are
running a ferry
> from Edmonds to Clinton, so we can take that.  (9:40 sailing; 50
minute trip).
> Please see:
>
> http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/pdf/muk_temp_schedule.pdf
>
> And for those who will be meeting at the 65th St P&R, let's plan on
still
> meeting at 8:30.  Edmonds is closer than Mukilteo, but the lines
could be extra
> long, so....
>
> Frank/Jeff: thanks a lot for the heads-up!
>
> Ethan
>
>
>
>
> ******************
> "Twenty years from now you will be
> more disappointed by the things
> that you didn't do than by the
> ones you did do.  So throw off the
> bowlines.  Sail away from the safe
> harbor.  Catch the trade winds in
> your sails.
> Explore. Dream.  Discover."
> - Mark Twain
> ******************

Oh no, I was planning on getting them all... why did you tell everyone
:))))

Go for it, it's for a good cause...

-- fabien



fabien_pichard@...
"God is a comic playing to an audience that's afraid to laugh."
-Voltaire (1694-1778)

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony L Cree [mailto:acree@...]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 10:41 PM
To: BBTC List
Subject: FW: NWCYCLING: Clif Products!!!!!


The best way to get clif bars would be to get them from one of our
trailwork
parties, but if you can't make one, here's the second best way.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Brown [mailto:konacross@...]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:15 PM
To: Newsgroup Cycling
Subject: NWCYCLING: Clif Products!!!!!


Come to the Clif Bar booth this weekend at the Bike Expo.
Rad Racing and Clif Bar have partnered up for a Junior Cycling
Fundraiser.
Clif Products are $10 a box.
This includes:
Clif Bars
Luna Bars
Clif Shots
Mojo Bars

No limit on boxes purchased.
Cash or check made out to RRNW.
If you would like to arrange a volume purchase contact Jim Brown
360-556-4258.

See ya there.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

we do have a great cast, we have the lovers, the ones that bitch all the
time, the whiners and the "force tranquille"...

-- Fabien



fabien_pichard@...
"God is a comic playing to an audience that's afraid to laugh."
-Voltaire (1694-1778)

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Axt [mailto:mtnwuff@...]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:31 PM
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: ...and a japanese gadget....


My dream is to write up a mountain biking soap opera "As The Knobbies
Turn" and
get some club members to act in the segments.  What do you think?

Kevin Axt

--- Joe Martin <joe@...> wrote:
>  Well ain't this a coincidence.  I just ordered a Canon ZR40 digital
> camcorder and a VioSport Helmet Cam Kit.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bike Expo off to great start. Seems a bit small this year but I haven't been
since it was over at Seattle Center. Somber symbolism: Big Cannondale booth.
When the bankrupt boys show up you know there's trouble in Dodge.

Zilly's there autographing his new Kissing the Trails book. And the BBTC
booth rocks, of course. Nice standup display catches your eye, and jerseys
pinned on backdrop. I posted a pix on bbtc.org.

One booth is selling slogan T's. I got one that says "drive to work to pay
for a car to drive to work to pay for a car to drive to work..." and ends
with RIDE TO WORK!

Jeff Lenosky is not to be missed. If you thought it was hard riding an mtb
backwards, just check out Lenosky. Easy as pie. What's the big deal? I wish
the trials stage was a bit more elaborate, though. Is it scaled down as
well? Over at the Center they had ramps and half pipes, in the old days.

Some great deals on clothing and parts, etc. Gregg's is selling the Tri-Flow
squeeze bottles for $1.99, I picked up 10. I go through them fairly quickly,
they're the best lube I've found for chain & derailleur over the years. And
smart wool socks $6 a shot.

I talked down one vendor from $100 to $35 in parts as long as I promised not
to tell anybody. Tubes at $1.50 - $2 a pop, tires cheap. And gloves. One
booth had great 3/4 finger gloves for $3 a pair, in large for once (usually
these deals are small/med only).

Be sure to bring along your haggling skills. Check out the floral Maverick
(Klein does the Mav paint jobs). The golf show is next door. Guys whacking
little white balls into netting. C'mon, do what Lenny says, Just ride it!
Regards,

Paul

Paul Andrews
Column: E-conomy, The Seattle Times
Reporting: US News & World Report
Weblog: www.paulandrews.com
Books: How the Web Was Won (Broadway Books, 2000)
GATES (Touchstone, 1994)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good point Chris.  I have driven it once but didn't realize it was so short.

I'd actually favor taking the ferry over & then driving all the way back; guess
I just like them ferry trips.  But whatever, I'm open to suggestions from my
carpooler(s).

Ethan

> Since it only takes about an hour to drive up to Burlington and then,
> maybe another 20 minutes to drive across to Ft Ebey from there,
> taking roads the whole way is almost going to be the same as the
> boat. It could quite possibly be even be faster if you take the extra
> traffic at the Edmonds ferry terminal into consideration. It'll be
> less of a headache, that's for sure. I've always liked Deception Pass
> too. Once you get onto Hwy 20, it's one of the nicer drives around.
>
> --- In bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com, knobbies@a... wrote:
> > It's been called to my attention that the Mukilteo/Clinton ferry is
> down this
> > weekend cause of work at the Mukilteo dock.  However, they are
> running a ferry
> > from Edmonds to Clinton, so we can take that.  (9:40 sailing; 50
> minute trip).
> > Please see:
> >
> > http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/pdf/muk_temp_schedule.pdf
> >
> > And for those who will be meeting at the 65th St P&R, let's plan on
> still
> > meeting at 8:30.  Edmonds is closer than Mukilteo, but the lines
> could be extra
> > long, so....
> >
> > Frank/Jeff: thanks a lot for the heads-up!
> >
> > Ethan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ******************
> > "Twenty years from now you will be
> > more disappointed by the things
> > that you didn't do than by the
> > ones you did do.  So throw off the
> > bowlines.  Sail away from the safe
> > harbor.  Catch the trade winds in
> > your sails.
> > Explore. Dream.  Discover."
> > - Mark Twain
> > ******************
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> bbtcmembers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Well it has been a month now and I just could'nt handle it anymore.
The bike has been sitting in the corner of my living room staring at
me, laughing at me!
I had to start riding around my house on the streets. I still have a
cast on my hand so I can only use my front brakes and chainring
shifter (broken right hand). No rears and gears for me. Let me just
say that the awesome Avid's with their precise modulation is the
only way I can ride now. These are the best brakes I have ever had.
My buddies have always scolded me for using my rear brakes too much
and not relying on the fronts. Well, all I have to say....Look at me
know.

The rehab has begun. See you all on the trails soon. Maybe I can
have my cast molded to my handlebar like Allison Dunlap?

Dennis

The movie and meeting event didn't make it into the newsletter.  So I
took about 200 flyers to the booth yesterday.  I left a pile on the
table, made sure people who approached took one.
I stuffed a pile of newsletters with the flyer.
If you are volunteering today, please take a minute to stuff some into
the newsletter.
Please take the leftover flyers to your LBS.
Thank you.

Norman Petersen
John L. Scott
253-813-2293

Lovely Homes, quiet
streets, ZERO DOWN payment.
Free, 24 Hour Recorded Information:
1-888-810-1509 ext 512
Online Home Search:
http://www.johnlscott.com/normanp

Posted a "ride" at Griffin Creek for next Saturday.  Hopefully the weather gods
will be kind to me.

Kevin Axt

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June 7th race in Leavenworth added to calendar.  This is a good one!

Kevin Axt

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Hi, All

I've read this article in dirt rag's access action, I think it's very well
written my Phillip Keyes.
I'd also like to give a Big thanks to Dirt Rag magazine for having this forum
in their magazine, way to go!

I have worked for years on trail advocacy but I'm kind of burnt out on it,
with my son needing my time. I have continued to lead volunteer trail work
parties in the Seattle area. Nothing helps our trail access like mt bikers
helping out the local trails with time and money.
This may be old news for some of you and I am kind of I'm a little out of the
loop.
  For me, This article, kind of put together this issue in a nut shell.

How do you (The Mountain biker) see this issue? I see it as IMBA and many of
us razing the white flag and hoping for the best or the "If you can't beat
them join em". Way of thinking.



>
By: Philip Keyes


The Wilderness Paradox
Wilderness is tearing at the soul of mountain biking.

The Wilderness Act forces us to choose between protecting open space and
riding our bikes. In the name of environmental protection, it forces us to
lump mountain biking with the evils of mining, oil drilling and logging.
Wilderness forces us to see justice in allowing 1500 pound horses to chew
through Wilderness trails while our waffle prints are regarded as a scourge
of the Wilderness world.

Wilderness is not only renewing our age-old hostilities with the hiking
groups, but is pitting biker against biker in a high stakes inter-nacine
argument about the future of our passion. In the meantime, the Wilderness
juggernaut rolls on across the country.

Did they really mean bikes?
There's still debate about whether the 1964 Congress really intended bicycles
to be prohibited in Wilderness when they banned "other modes of mechanized
transport" from Wilderness areas.

IMBA's Gary Sprung and Jim Hasenauer argue that it wasn't Congress's
intention to prohibit bicycles in the original 1964 Wilderness Act. Sprung
and Hasenauer believe that the Act was intended to prevent future non-human
powered modes of transport that might come after combustible and electric
engines. Bicycles, they argue, weren't included until two decades later.

This is difficult to confirm because of the absence of a documented
legislative history about the Act, but it wasn't until 1984 under the Reagan
administration that the U.S. Forest Service explicitly listed bicycles in the
prohibition. Some bicycle advocates believe that this decision was made
behind closed doors under pressure from traditional hiking organizations like
the Sierra Club.

In a simple world, bikes could be exempted from the interpretation of
"mechanized transport" and cyclists would have little to worry about with any
existing or future Wilderness area. However, it's unlikely that the
politicians are going to be willing to revisit this, especially with the
increasing political clout of the Wilderness Coalitions. Hang gliders and
climbers who use anchor hooks are also out of luck.

The only game in town
Wilderness is a powerful legislative tool to protect open space forever. It's
congressionally sanctioned, widely understood by politicians and can be
simply plug-and-played. All that's needed is 5,000 acres of federal land and
some local political support. Sure, there are other ways to protect large
tracts of open space, but the time and energy needed to craft a new policy
that would cater to a few mountain bikers, hangliders and climbers makes it
unlikely.

Even though other models of open space protection have been bandied about
that are more recreationally friendly, no one has made much effort to get
congressional recognition of an alternative to Wilderness. Most Senators have
probably never heard of "National Conservation Areas," or of a "tiered
approach" to Wilderness that could allow for mechanized recreation on some
Wilderness lands.

For now, you either play the Wilderness game or fight it tooth and nail, and
given how fundamentally flawed Wilderness is, it's tempting to just cry foul.

But politics is as much about pragmatism as it is about idealism-and usually
pragmatism has the upper hand. The importance of being at the table-even if
you don't like the meal-is key. The fight over Wilderness in California is
raging, and even after IMBA held numerous meetings with the bill's sponsor,
Senator Barbara Boxer, over half the 2.5 million acres of proposed Wilderness
still includes popular mountain bike trails.

Did Senator Boxer stiff IMBA? Would the bill be even worse without IMBA's
negotiation? Tough to say.

But some California mountain bike advocates, such as the Warrior's Society,
are displeased with what they see as IMBA's strategy of appeasement with the
Wilderness folk. Draped in a mix of Native American political rhetoric, the
Warrior's Society doesn't want any sort of "treaty" and urges a mass mountain
bike rebellion against Boxer's bill. The Wilderness folk speak with forked
tongues, and the Warrior's Society urges mountain bikers to take a Last
Stand.

But while high on the idealism scale, last stands didn't produce many
positive results for Native Americans, and it's not hard to imagine a B-rate
movie sequel, Last of the Mountain Bikers, resulting from this zero-sum
gambit.

Not surprisingly, IMBA's recent announcement that they have signed on to a
new age of cooperation with Wilderness organizations has received a mixed
reaction from mountain bikers. The pragmatists see it as an opening to
positively affect Wilderness boundaries, engage in dialogue and salvage
important mountain bike trails. Others think IMBA is being duped by
environmental extremists who would just as soon see mountain bikes banished
from the planet.

Arizona advocate, Mark Flint, is one such critic who's opposed to
negotiation. According to Flint, "mountain bicyclists continually have access
threatened by Wilderness and people who call themselves environmentalists. To
join forces with them seems to me an exercise in futility; we have nothing to
gain and a lot of trails to lose. While IMBA sits at the table making nice
with Wilderness organizations, mountain bicyclists in Arizona, California,
Idaho, Oregon and Nevada are watching proposals that would kill their access
to trails."

Out of the fog of Wilderness, one thing is clear. The Wilderness paradox is
driving a wedge through the mountain bike community, pitting advocate against
advocate, and making it more difficult than ever to stand up to Wilderness
with any unified resolve. Conspiracy theorists might see this as part of a
Wilderness strategy to divide and conquer. However, it's more likely that we
are simply doing this to ourselves because of the difficulties we have in
getting our heads around Wilderness itself. It's time for someone-IMBA?-to
get all the different mountain bike viewpoints around a table, work out our
differences and find ways to develop a single plan and a single
front...before it's too late.
Phillip Keyes/ Dirt Rag
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------

My views,
  Frankly, I'm alarmed when people like well respected Mark Flint move away
from IMBA. I am not sure who's right, but who does?.  I've always chosen to
fight and slow or stop wilderness any way I can, Philip may be right
alternatives to wilderness have and may NOT be accepted. What's in it for
them?
     I know they have beaten us every time on these issues for well over a
decade, have they ever (Shared) an inch of trail?
  They are powerful and well funded, they have federal judges that they bring
their wilderness proposals to, who are kind of green party types. "Look out"
when issues are brought to the San Francisco and Seattle Federal court.
Wilderness will win. I believe that in my state of Washington's the last
wilderness proposal was shot down in part by Idaho Republican senator.
I belive that all wilderness issues are relate nationwide, just when they
finish one new wilderness area, they can focus all there power/money on
another one. Just when you go along with them on one wilderness they move to
the next and this time it's on your favorite trail!

  This statement is going to seem equally radical as my last. I think we
should make the wilderness proponents pay for All the cost of new wilderness
proposals. Why should the we have to pay for their private playground? We are
now paying fees to use national forest and now in Washington state park
trails.
Why hasn't IMBA used it's new legal defense fund to slow or stop the bleeding?
I guess they have raized the white flag and they are crossing their fingers.
See you on the trail!

Craig Mckinnon
  Kirkland, Washington



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A change of plans left me with an afternoon (Saturday) by myself so I drove over
to the Paradise Lake area for a quick ride.  One other car parked along Paradise
road.  I've only ridden here twice before despite it's close proximity.  The
reason I don't ride there more often is I can't stand the parking situation. 
Something about trucks roaring by while I change shoes really annoys me. 
Anyhow, I did the usual stuff for about two hours, never saw any bicycles but
ran into a half dozen motorcyclists.  Came back to the car and had about an hour
left of daylight so I explored the dirt roads north of Paradise road.  Back at
the car, almost dusk and I step into the woods to pee before leaving.  Again, I
really don't like this parking area.  Start reading a sheriff's sign on a tree
about some guy that disappeared a year ago and his remains were found in this
area a few months ago.  Look about ten feet from the tree and see a pile of
bones.  Not much left but there is a rib cage, vertebrae and some other loose
bones, all clean as can be.  Also some kind of plastic bags and the usual
garbage.  Now these bones were partially buried so I snooped around a little
more but figured it must be a horse although there was no head.  Started driving
home and stopped for gas and beer down the road at the Texaco.  Began getting a
nagging thought in my mind, why would someone dump bones there and on and on. 
Decided to report it so I called 911 from the gas station, telling them I'm sure
it was animal bones but just the same it seemed suspicious.  The sheriff's
department seemed totally unfamiliar with the area and asked me to wait for a
deputy.  Met the deputy at the site, he seemed young (they all do) and quickly
became quite excited.  He said to me "I hope these are human remains, if so it
will be my first one"  He started calling for "experts" and I left, by now it
was totally dark.  He called later that evening, somewhat disappointed and
informed me that they were elk bones, much to my relief.  Enough of my ramble,
is there any plans for a different parking area in the future?  The dumpy area
is bad but could be cleaned up, what really bugs me is parking along that busy
highway.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That is very creepy. I looked up the incident that you refer to, see the
following links. I don't like parking by the road either. Is there another
location to park, I thought it was in the works to get a sanctioned parking lot?
Were the motorcyclists riding on trails that are closed to them?
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?s\
lug=bone15e&date=20021015
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?s\
lug=dige21m&date=20021021
  kirkanderson <kirk.anderson@...> wrote:A change of plans left me with
an afternoon (Saturday) by myself so I drove over to the Paradise Lake area for
a quick ride.  One other car parked along Paradise road.  I've only ridden here
twice before despite it's close proximity.  The reason I don't ride there more
often is I can't stand the parking situation.  Something about trucks roaring by
while I change shoes really annoys me.  Anyhow, I did the usual stuff for about
two hours, never saw any bicycles but ran into a half dozen motorcyclists.  Came
back to the car and had about an hour left of daylight so I explored the dirt
roads north of Paradise road.  Back at the car, almost dusk and I step into the
woods to pee before leaving.  Again, I really don't like this parking area. 
Start reading a sheriff's sign on a tree about some guy that disappeared a year
ago and his remains were found in this area a few months ago.  Look about ten
feet from the tree and see a pile of bones.  Not much left but there is a rib
cage, vertebrae and some other loose bones, all clean as can be.  Also some kind
of plastic bags and the usual garbage.  Now these bones were partially buried so
I snooped around a little more but figured it must be a horse although there was
no head.  Started driving home and stopped for gas and beer down the road at the
Texaco.  Began getting a nagging thought in my mind, why would someone dump
bones there and on and on.  Decided to report it so I called 911 from the gas
station, telling them I'm sure it was animal bones but just the same it seemed
suspicious.  The sheriff's department seemed totally unfamiliar with the area
and asked me to wait for a deputy.  Met the deputy at the site, he seemed young
(they all do) and quickly became quite excited.  He said to me "I hope these are
human remains, if so it will be my first one"  He started calling for "experts"
and I left, by now it was totally dark.  He called later that evening, somewhat
disappointed and informed me that they were elk bones, much to my relief. 
Enough of my ramble, is there any plans for a different parking area in the
future?  The dumpy area is bad but could be cleaned up, what really bugs me is
parking along that busy highway.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all,

Just wondering if anyone can point in my the right direction for researching the
upcoming Peak to Creek Gravity Assisted XC Race???

I believe it is on March 29th @ Capitol Forest. Any web links or word of mouth
would be appreciated.

Also, is anyone interested in leading a pre-race ride there??

Thanks in advance!

Craig





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig (Beave) [mailto:res06774@...]
>
> Just wondering if anyone can point in my the right direction
> for researching the upcoming Peak to Creek Gravity Assisted XC Race???

Give The Peak bike shop a call and they'll tell you which trail it's on.

I know of two courses they use for P2C but didn't do the series last
year, so there may be more, but I'll describe the two courses I know.

The first is basically a straight shot down trail #30 from Capitol Peak,
the onto Molly Porter to the Waddel Creek parking lot.  These are all
motorcycle-legal trails. The top part is steep and rocky, then some
switchbacks, then /very/ steep and rocky (at least from a XC rider's
perspective; from a DH'ers perspective it's probably fairly easy), then
back into the woods for a couple of .5 mile or so climbs and rolling
terrain to the parking lot.  This course features slippery clay-style
mud and gravelly trail for the most part, with the aforementioned rocky
areas rounding it out.  I can't remember the distance for this course.
I raced this course in September of 2001 on my 30+ lb Santa Cruz Heckler
and did fairly well.  The expert winner was on a hardtail.

The second course is down Greenline #6, also from Capitol Peak (but not
the very top).  This is a horse trail, so is narrower but not as eroded
(or at least eroded in a different fashion).  It starts out with some a
series of fairly sharp switchbacks -- you can make lots of time on this
upper section if you know how to ride switchbacks fast.  It then follows
the trail generally downward with some climbing, and then there's a
mile-ish (?) climb of maybe 500 feet or so.  To do well on this course,
you /need/ a bike that you can climb on (if you ride a DH bike you will
be a hurting puppy).  After the climb, it's almost all downhill to the
parking lot, with the exception of some climbing on gravel roads.  This
course is 14 miles.  I've ridden this course a bunch of times on my
rigid singlespeed and it worked great (though I don't know how I did
when I actually raced on that bike, as the timing for my run was messed
up).

Take all this with a grain of salt as it's been over a year since I rode
these trails.

The Peak to Creek races are /very/ fun, as long as you go with the
expectation that you WILL wait a long time for results to be posted.
Just relax and drink some of the free beer after your run.

-Mo

Anybody who is signed up for Jesse's Gold Creek ride should print out
http://www.cascadeswim.com/bike/bkwa_Seabeck_GreenMountain.xml now. I may have
some downtime for a day or two shortly, as I am switching internet providers.

If the site goes down, email me, and I'll send you the content of that page,
which basically is the directions to the trailhead.

OFF TOPIC RANT BELOW

The reason I'm changing is that the company hosting the site sucks, and will not
allow me to FTP new files there anymore. When they changed dns providers, they
changed the password to my FTP site, and will not give me the new password. They
suck so bad, I haven't been able to have my domain email hosted by them for over
two years, because their customer support refuses to give me the damn password
to my own account. Unbelievable, considering I'm paying $20/month for the
(noncommercial) site. Never ask a friend to host your site, just lost a
friendship but don't care.





Ken O. Bonn
http://www.CascadeSwim.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Parking Lot???

I'm sure Jeff Mack has a little better line on this. But, as far as I know,
the county has no plans for any parking in the near future. (read: a couple
years, maybe?)

We're working on it. But, as with anything that's legit. It takes time.

Bob


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One thing to consider about P2C also is the potential for damage to
your bike when they haul it up to the top. Now, this was only my
personal experience and was NOT common but, the trailers that they
haul your baby on are pretty questionable. They just set the front of
your seat on this bar in the middle of the trailer and they haul them
15 miles up the choppy gravel road which easily bounces them off that
bar. Mine fell off and a couple other bikes fell ontop of it (I was
in the bus behind and saw it happen). Anyway, by the time we
unloaded, I noticed my fork tube was hacked up and the burrs blew the
seal on the ride down. I showed the damage to both of the guys that
run The Peak bike shop when I took it off the trailer and they said
they'd "take care of it". Long story short, they never did. I
would've just settled for a new seal and installed it myself but,
they were like the sound of one hand clapping. Regardless, I still
enjoyed the race quite a bit. The course and the free beer/food
afterwards was as much appreciated as the casual and fun atmosphere.
I really think they do a great job with their race. It was waaay
better than the WIM Battle in Seattle or the Warp Speed classic races
that left me pretty underwhelmed with the way that they only seemed
like they were doing it for the money. There's a $30 entrance fee
compared to $45 for the others and, if you win your class, you get
your entrance fee back in the form of store credit at The Peak.
That's pretty cool! But really, there's no *need* for anyone to pre-
run the course because it prbly won't make you faster. Just make sure
to sign up for a class that is as fast as you think you can ride
because passing is not easy on singletrack when everyone starts at 60
second intervals. The lower the class you sign up for, the further
back in the field that you start and you'll be struggling to pass
some pretty slow people. Believe me, that will eat into your time
more than any lack of course knowledge. The fastest guys did it in
under an hour. A blood thirsty Tom Witte did it in about 70 mins
while I was about ten minutes behind him (silly me, I drank blood
before the race). It's prbly not what you expect or are used to for a
race but, I mean that in a good way so, you'll do alright. I'm
looking forward to it.

--- In bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com, "Moishe Lettvin" <moishel@e...>
wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Craig (Beave) [mailto:res06774@v...]
> >
> > Just wondering if anyone can point in my the right direction
> > for researching the upcoming Peak to Creek Gravity Assisted XC
Race???
>
> Give The Peak bike shop a call and they'll tell you which trail
it's on.

The "dumbing down" snots have been at work up at Tolt.  When we were up there
this Saturday, we rode on Perimeter & Tour de Stump.  Both of them have had
logs removed to make it easier for the lazy sh*tz.  Tolt is becoming too
popular for its own good apparently.


=====
Kevin Axt
Redmond, WA

Opinionated SOB (Slow Onespeed Biker)

__________________________________________________
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Kirk,

You are right about the parking situation at Paradise Valley park not
being very desirable.  This area became part of the Snohomish County
Parks & Recreation department in May of last year.  The area has
suffered for years from neglect, competing interests, lack of interest,
lack of funding, etc.  The fact that the park is now in the stewardship
of Snohomish County does not necessarily solve many of these issues.
Snohomish County is no different than King county in that they have no
money to maintain the parks.  This means they also have no money to
procure and maintain parking facilities.  The park was deeded to the
county in a $3M land swap.  It's a complicated story, but eventually
parking facilities may surface out of this.  The county knows that
ultimately parking will need to be provided.

In the mean time, we just have to do the best we can in terms of
parking.  If you are reasonably familiar with the area, you might be
able to find alternate access into the park via one of the surrounding
neighborhoods but as you can imagine there is pretty keen sensitivity to
this as well.

As for the poster of the gentleman that you described, his poster is on
every tree within a 5 mile radius around there.

Regarding the garbage etc., we will be posting another work party out
there soon and would welcome your help to instill pride of ownership in
our newest park.  And you might not even have to park on the road to
join the work party.  Stay tuned and hope to see you out there.

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: kirkanderson [mailto:kirk.anderson@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 5:49 PM
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: paradise ride solo

A change of plans left me with an afternoon (Saturday) by myself so I
drove over to the Paradise Lake area for a quick ride.  One other car
parked along Paradise road.  I've only ridden here twice before despite
it's close proximity.  The reason I don't ride there more often is I
can't stand the parking situation.  Something about trucks roaring by
while I change shoes really annoys me.  Anyhow, I did the usual stuff
for about two hours, never saw any bicycles but ran into a half dozen
motorcyclists.  Came back to the car and had about an hour left of
daylight so I explored the dirt roads north of Paradise road.  Back at
the car, almost dusk and I step into the woods to pee before leaving.
Again, I really don't like this parking area.  Start reading a sheriff's
sign on a tree about some guy that disappeared a year ago and his
remains were found in this area a few months ago.  Look about ten feet
from the tree and see a pile of bones.  Not much left but there is a rib
cage, vertebrae and some other loose bones, all clean as can be.  Also
some kind of plastic bags and the usual garbage.  Now these bones were
partially buried so I snooped around a little more but figured it must
be a horse although there was no head.  Started driving home and stopped
for gas and beer down the road at the Texaco.  Began getting a nagging
thought in my mind, why would someone dump bones there and on and on.
Decided to report it so I called 911 from the gas station, telling them
I'm sure it was animal bones but just the same it seemed suspicious.
The sheriff's department seemed totally unfamiliar with the area and
asked me to wait for a deputy.  Met the deputy at the site, he seemed
young (they all do) and quickly became quite excited.  He said to me "I
hope these are human remains, if so it will be my first one"  He started
calling for "experts" and I left, by now it was totally dark.  He called
later that evening, somewhat disappointed and informed me that they were
elk bones, much to my relief.  Enough of my ramble, is there any plans
for a different parking area in the future?  The dumpy area is bad but
could be cleaned up, what really bugs me is parking along that busy
highway.

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Holy turds, isn't the idea of dumbing down Tolt a little excessive?  I mean
it's pretty cool-technical in places, but it's not like the damn place is
treacherous.  These people are going to be first up against the wall when the
revolution comes.

     Thank you

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Kevin Axt
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:17 PM
   Subject: Trail Dumbing Down


   The "dumbing down" snots have been at work up at Tolt.  When we were up there
   this Saturday, we rode on Perimeter & Tour de Stump.  Both of them have had
   logs removed to make it easier for the lazy sh*tz.  Tolt is becoming too
   popular for its own good apparently.


   =====
   Kevin Axt
   Redmond, WA

   Opinionated SOB (Slow Onespeed Biker)

   __________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom and Kevin,

We've been through this story at Tolt and other places several times over
the past few seasons in particular. It just comes down to education of the
masses.
Said culprits probably came along and attempted the log. When they could not
do it, they assumed no one else could and probably worked really hard to
make the trail "safer" and "better" for the rest of us.
IMBA and clubs like the BBTC are developing ways of keeping the difficulty
in trails that some crave while allowing those who have not developed the
skills yet necessary to clear said obstacle to ride around safely.

I truly believe that all "dumbing down" is done with good intentions.

Does it frustrate me too? Heck yeah!. It's often very difficult to rebuild.
But, as more and more people get into mountain biking and also "discover"
all the great areas we have around here, we will constantly be addressing
this issue. But, more new riders also means more trail access power.

More new riders(trail power)/dumbing down trails(frustration). Hmmm. I can
take that.

Education is everything.

Bob
2003 Rides Coordinator
(Showin' mountain bikers the trail goods since '91)

-----Original Message-----
From: tom.witte@... [mailto:tom.witte@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:35 PM
To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com; Kevin Axt
Subject: Re: Trail Dumbing Down



     Holy turds, isn't the idea of dumbing down Tolt a little excessive?  I
mean it's pretty cool-technical in places, but it's not like the damn place
is treacherous.  These people are going to be first up against the wall when
the revolution comes.

     Thank you

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Kevin Axt
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:17 PM
   Subject: Trail Dumbing Down


   The "dumbing down" snots have been at work up at Tolt.  When we were up
there
   this Saturday, we rode on Perimeter & Tour de Stump.  Both of them have
had
   logs removed to make it easier for the lazy sh*tz.  Tolt is becoming too
   popular for its own good apparently.


   =====
   Kevin Axt
   Redmond, WA

   Opinionated SOB (Slow Onespeed Biker)

   __________________________________________________
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Gregg's Greenlake store (not sure about Aurora or Bellevue) has the "Help
Wanted" sign up again for this Spring and Summer. Needed are experienced
bike mechanics, and some people to work sales. For the latter positions,
some retail experience is preferred; doesn't have to be bike-specific tho'
that's a plus.  Fastest way to get the process started is to stop by and
pick up a job application form.  The completed form and a one-page letter,
and maybe a resume if you want, will help store manager Dave Rider decide
where/if you'd best fit in the organization.

If I find out any more info, I'll let you know.

Tom Fitzpatrick

WARNING: <soapbox on>

But what is it about these people that makes them assume that just because
*they* can't do it, that it is (by reason of that one attempt) "dangerous" or
"not good"?  I mean the one I especially noticed on the Perimeter trail was
right near the end just after you make a corner and before the one climb in the
trail.  As soon as you turn the corner, you're presented with a double log
ride-over.  No big deal.  You carry a little speed and you're just fine.  Its
not like they were even big logs.  Its not a trail obstacle that even requires
a bypass route.

I've been riding offroad since '86 and have never felt the need to remove
something from the trail because I couldn't ride it ... and there are MASSIVE
amounts of trail obstacles that I haven't been able to ride and many things to
this day that continue to trip me up.  Anyone who's been on a ride with me
knows that my technical skills are largly a product of the bike being a fine
riding machine and not something that I'm doing.

I don't get the mentality behind this act.

<soapbox off>
========
Kevin Axt

Opinionated SOB (Slow Onespeed Biker)

--- Bob Bournique <bbournique@...> wrote:
> Said culprits probably came along and attempted the log. When they could not
> do it, they assumed no one else could and probably worked really hard to
> make the trail "safer" and "better" for the rest of us.


__________________________________________________
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The booth and materials were excellent. Kudos to the organizers! BUT, for
one thing, and it didn't even occur to me until someone pointed it out
(really and this is not just to toot my own horn) but there was no copy,
paper or laminated or otherwise, of the recent P-I article on the BBTC at
our booth with the excellent photo of Ferdinand on the cover --would have
been sure to be eye catching?
Perhaps next year!

Thanks again to the organizers for a nice job!

Valerie


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/travel/110567_icebike03.shtml

Hey everybody,

I have questions for you...

What's your favorite bike shop, and why?
Is it the mechanics?
The sales guys?
The choice of bikes?
The accessories?
The prices it carries?
The discount you get?
Is it just because it's at a great location?
Is it because you just belong to the team this shop sponsors?
Is it the ambiance? Do you care if there is a couch there where you can
sit, enjoy a coffee while they work on your bike?
Do you care if they also sale online at the same time? For example, you
could check the availability of a new or used part, order it, receive it
home or go and pick it up?

What else do you like in a bike shop?
Quick turn-around with the bikes? I mean they fix them fast and well?

Please reply to ME only (fabien_pichard@...) as I don't want to
pollute your mailboxes more than I did already :)

Thanks -- Fabien
fabien_pichard@...
"God is a comic playing to an audience that's afraid to laugh."
-Voltaire (1694-1778)

Now that you mention it, and if people are interested in bike-related
job opportunities:

Aaron of Aaron's Bike Repair was at the Expo. He will be operating the
new BikeStation location near Pioneer Square and is looking for staff, I
think primarily retail staff and a location manager, not sure about
mechanics.

BikeStation is a chain of bike rental/parking/repair locations in
California:
http://www.bikestation.com

Aaron's gotta be a good guy if he puts up web pages like this one:
http://www.rideyourbike.com/shopcats.html

I hope they get rid of that really annoying sharp bump with the log at the
top of it - you know, the one that gets up in between your front wheel and
bottom bracket like some sort of dental cleaning device - then Toothpick will be
a lot more rideable (what a weird name, I wonder why they call it that?).  On
the same note, I think we could all use a lot more straightening out of the
trail on Tapeworm.  And I can hardly wait 'til Mission Ridge is nice and flat
and rideable.

     No, no, I totally agree about good intentions and how education is key.

     ...Education with a firing squad!

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Bob Bournique
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 6:52 AM
   Subject: RE: Trail Dumbing Down


   Tom and Kevin,

   We've been through this story at Tolt and other places several times over
   the past few seasons in particular. It just comes down to education of the
   masses.
   Said culprits probably came along and attempted the log. When they could not
   do it, they assumed no one else could and probably worked really hard to
   make the trail "safer" and "better" for the rest of us.
   IMBA and clubs like the BBTC are developing ways of keeping the difficulty
   in trails that some crave while allowing those who have not developed the
   skills yet necessary to clear said obstacle to ride around safely.

   I truly believe that all "dumbing down" is done with good intentions.

   Does it frustrate me too? Heck yeah!. It's often very difficult to rebuild.
   But, as more and more people get into mountain biking and also "discover"
   all the great areas we have around here, we will constantly be addressing
   this issue. But, more new riders also means more trail access power.

   More new riders(trail power)/dumbing down trails(frustration). Hmmm. I can
   take that.

   Education is everything.

   Bob
   2003 Rides Coordinator
   (Showin' mountain bikers the trail goods since '91)

   -----Original Message-----
   From: tom.witte@... [mailto:tom.witte@...]
   Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:35 PM
   To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com; Kevin Axt
   Subject: Re: Trail Dumbing Down



       Holy turds, isn't the idea of dumbing down Tolt a little excessive?  I
   mean it's pretty cool-technical in places, but it's not like the damn place
   is treacherous.  These people are going to be first up against the wall when
   the revolution comes.

       Thank you

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Kevin Axt
     To: bbtcmembers@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:17 PM
     Subject: Trail Dumbing Down


     The "dumbing down" snots have been at work up at Tolt.  When we were up
   there
     this Saturday, we rode on Perimeter & Tour de Stump.  Both of them have
   had
     logs removed to make it easier for the lazy sh*tz.  Tolt is becoming too
     popular for its own good apparently.


     =====
     Kevin Axt
     Redmond, WA

     Opinionated SOB (Slow Onespeed Biker)

     __________________________________________________
     Do you Yahoo!?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good morning all!

In preparation for the club meeting next Monday, I have come across a couple
questions.

From the Rides Coordinator persepctive, I'm putting together a short(by my
standards!) talk about local riding areas and BBTC rides which frequent
those areas.

A: What do you want to know about BBTC rides? I'm looking for the content
that you will find valuable because, as many of you know, I can ramble on
about various trail specifics.


B: Anyone know where/how I can get a greater Seattle map about 48" x 36"?
Planning on putting those little numbered flags on it to correlate with a
legend stating the names of said places. Just to give everyone an overall
view of where everything is.
Would I have to get this custom made? Planning on King, Pierce, Snohomish
counties for now.

Thanks!

Bob Bournique
2003 Rides Coordinator