Paul,

Your post is clear why we do *not* want to keep the stints as-is.

The requirement about chrono-stints can already be addressed by a Stints
table that shows the stint order.  Several posters have already responded
positively to this.

The "batting" table's dual role has already caused problems in the past.
I think the official MLB position is that the "batting" table is the "all
appearances" table, so that any game gets recorded with a "batting"
record, even if he didn't bat.  (I'm not exactly sure about this, but I'm
going on memory here, but it's consistent with players not batting still
having a batting record.)

Anyway, from a database perspective, we don't need to have a stint denoted
in the batting *and* pitching *and* fielding tables, and ensure it
matches.  The key fields of tables are supposed to identify records in not
such a rigid way that you would have to alter the key field if you find
the data needs to be updated.  That's why playerID fields should never
change, even if a pitcher's name gets changed.  You don't want to have the
stint as a key field, if it means that it may change if we have new
information.  Imagine we introduce minor league data.  Now, you've got
MASSIVE changes in key fields for tons of players across multiple tables.
(Think of players like JJ Hardy.)

At least, with a Stints table, it will be localized to a single table,
whose entire purpose is to track that.  Indeed, you wouldn't even need to
have the stintID have to be a key field.

Had we started with a clean slate, the Stints would be treated
equivalently to Home/Away splits or Inning splits or Starter/Relief
splits.  They'd be part of a child table.

Tom



> My vote is to keep the stints as is. 
>
>
> From a database perspective, it is much, much easier to take a stint
> divided table and sum it up to get the overall numbers than it is to try
> to take a combined table and then split it back up using a separate stint
> table.  I suspect it would be harder for the administrator to maintain
> two separate tables.
>
> From a baseball perspective, the stint field in valuable to determine how
> a player moved from team to team during a season.  This is pretty basic
> information.  Does everyone need this information?  No.  Is it useful
> for people who do need this information?  Yes.
>
> Also, along with the team discrepancies on the stints that I noted to
> start this (unexpected) thread, there are also several hundred pitching
> stints in the years 2009-2011 that did not have a Batting record at all. 
> Almost all of them are in the AL and I suspect none of the pitchers
> involved ever batted.  This is not a huge deal, except that for all other
> seasons if a playerID had a Pitching record he always had a Batting
> record, even if he never batted.  You may already be aware of it at this
> point, but I mention it anyway.
>
> Paul Golba
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: anson2995 <slahman@...>
> To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:39 AM
> Subject: [baseball-databank] Re: Stints
>
>
>  
> "Tangotiger" <tom@...> wrote:
>> I'm asking if the cost of that use is a justifiable cost.
>> We had bad data in the first release, and we have bad data
>> according to the recent post, and it's traced to the stint ID.
>
> The problem of bad data don't have anything to do with the database
> design. It's 100% attributable to me, the person who processed most of the
> updates. It's the first time in several years that I made the offseason
> updates rather than Sean Forman, and the scripts I used to make and check
> the updates were outdated. It shouldn't be a problem in the future.
>
> I think it's much more labor intensive to use and maintain a table that
> lists start and end dates in a separate transaction file, especially if we
> continue to maintain batting/pitching/fielding as separate files.
>
> But I'm certainly open to further discussion, on this or other design
> issues.
>
> Regards,
> Sean Lahman
>
>
>


---------------------------------------------
The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball
http://www.InsideTheBook.com

Does anyone have a comment on the reply below?

I'm always running into problems with appearances and have to use the fielding
table.  Not the best table to JOIN with since almost every player has multiple
records per season.

Thanks,
-Chris

--- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "Tangotiger" <tom@...> wrote:
>
The "batting" table's dual role has already caused problems in the past.
I think the official MLB position is that the "batting" table is the "all
appearances" table, so that any game gets recorded with a "batting"
record, even if he didn't bat. (I'm not exactly sure about this, but I'm
going on memory here, but it's consistent with players not batting still
having a batting record.)

There's an APPEARANCES table in the Lahman DB.  I haven't verified it, but
that might help you.

Tom

> Does anyone have a comment on the reply below?
>
> I'm always running into problems with appearances and have to use the
> fielding table.  Not the best table to JOIN with since almost every player
> has multiple records per season.
>
> Thanks,
> -Chris
>
> --- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "Tangotiger" <tom@...> wrote:
>>
> The "batting" table's dual role has already caused problems in the past.
> I think the official MLB position is that the "batting" table is the "all
> appearances" table, so that any game gets recorded with a "batting"
> record, even if he didn't bat. (I'm not exactly sure about this, but I'm
> going on memory here, but it's consistent with players not batting still
> having a batting record.)
>
>


---------------------------------------------
The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball
http://www.InsideTheBook.com

I don't fully understand what is being proposed, but I just wanted to
take a moment to speak out in favor of backwards compatibility.

For example, people bought "Puresim 4" ( a baseball simulation game by
Shaun Sullivan). It loads data in the "Lahman" format. Even though the
game was published in 2010, it can still load last year's database and
this year's database. If the stint column goes away, many users will be
unable to load next year's database.

If it's too difficult to ensure that the stint data is correct, I'd
rather see it 90% correct, but with documentation that (for example)
stint data after 2010 may not be 100% accurate.

Clay

BDB or Lahman DB would be "backward compatible" with the proposed change,
or at least have that as a potential.

If we do this with a STINTS table that shows it the way we've been talking
about it, then you could join the Batting, Pitching, Fielding table to the
STINTS table, and get the stintID for virtually every record.  There's no
reason that it has to be "backward compatible" out of the box.  But, one
extra join on each table will make it backward compatible.

The only issue will be the Rob Ducey's of the world, who leave and come
back to the same team in the same year, while interrupted by a different
MLB team.  Again, that can also be handled with a StintSplits table,
similar to have a splits table for Batting v Pitch Hand if we wanted to
eventually go there.

Anyway, this is really in Lahman's hands, as the keeper of the DB.  He
says that the data quality issues was that he needed to change his script.
  If that's the case, that we won't experience data quality issue again as
a result of stints, then, fine, the issue is mostly moot.  Those of us who
have no need to the stintID field can do the appropriate matching and
summing after-the-fact.

I will say that once you incorporate minor league data, we're going to
revisit this all over again.  As it currently stands, we're going to have
massive key changes when that happens.  JJ Hardy getting sent down to the
minors and being called up will have stintID 1 and 3 in 2009, whereas
right now, he has only 1 record.  And it'll get worse for guys that get
sent down and called up multiple times in the same year.  But, we're not
there yet.

Tom

Retrosheet changed their minds and will be using TeamID MIA - I think we should
do the same...

THANKS,
Kevin

--- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Gargano <mgargano@...> wrote:
>
> Using standard database protocol, franchise ID should *never* change.
> Regardless of where the team moves.
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Sean Lahman <sl@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > My plan is to use "MIA" as the teamID for the Miami Marlins. Don't think
> > BBRef or Retrosheet have weighed in yet.
> >
> > As far as the FranchiseID, my inclination is to leave it as is for now.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sean
> >
> > ---
> > Sean Lahman
> > http://seanlahman.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I didn't see a response on this... Will DH no longer be included in the fielding
table?  Thanks.

-Chris

--- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, John Rickert <rickert@...> wrote:
>
> In the Fielding.csv file previous seasons have totals for games played at DH,
but 2011 does not.
>

Dear group members,

Please excuse the cross posting. When examining more than one season's
worth of data, do you think that there is a need to examine the data
using time-series methods?

If this is too far off topic for the general group discussion, please
feel free to respond to me directly.

Regards,

Nick Miceli

Being new to databases, I am wondering if someone might help me with
instructions on how to query career stats from the csv data provided recently.

I have tried opening the db file itself, but my computer locks up (as if the
file is too large to process. Is there a trick to this I don't know of?

All help is greatly appreciated.

You should download the Lahman MS Access database:

http://www.seanlahman.com/baseball-archive/statistics/

It'll make life easier for you.

Tom

> Being new to databases, I am wondering if someone might help me with
> instructions on how to query career stats from the csv data provided
> recently.
>
> I have tried opening the db file itself, but my computer locks up (as if
> the file is too large to process. Is there a trick to this I don't know
> of?
>
> All help is greatly appreciated.
>
>
>


---------------------------------------------
The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball
http://www.InsideTheBook.com

Hi there,

I would like to merge (unite, join or however it's called) different databases.

We have a baseball site to highlight stats of latino players and we have found
some databases that we'd like to work with. We downloaded the mlb and npb
databases. And we're working on a venezuelan baseball, italian and dutch 
databases too.

But the problem are the id's of players, teams, managers, etc. The question is:
Is there a way to create one "main", batting, pitching, etc. table other than
doing it by hand?

I'm sorry if you don't understand the question, you sure can tell that english
is not my mother language.

Thanks in advanced for any tips.

Greetings,

Good day,
While I was merging the database with the current active rosters from mlb.com I
came across the following discrepancies in birth dates:

Name           Birth     ID        MLB BD
Ervin Santana     12/12/82  santaer01 1/10/83
Erik Bedard       3/5/79    bedarer01 3/6/79
Jose Arredondo    3/12/84   arredjo01 3/30/84
George Kottaras   5/10/83   kottage01 5/16/83
Freddy Garcia     10/6/76   garcifr02 6/10/75
Humberto Quintero 8/2/79    quinthu01 8/8/79
Matt Garza        11/26/83  garzama01 11/11/83
Aaron Crow        11/10/86  crowaa01  11/11/86
Gregor Blanco     12/24/83  blancgr01 12/12/83

Has anyone encountered this before? Is there any way to determine which is
correct? I was trying to calculate the average age by team, so I am using the
MLB date for now, but I am curious to see which is correct.

Thank you,
Greg Hill

Probably a dumb question but can anyone lead me to a good source for 2012 MLB
data?

I'd like to provide current stats and suspect there are many services that
provide this data (for a fee).  I'm curious if there are any other sources or
open source projects that I can parse 2012 data from?

Thanks -Chris.

From David Vincent via Rod Nelson, the SABR Biographical database (which
Baseball-Reference.com uses) has most of these resolved:

Player    SABR DB    MLB.com

Santana   12/12/1982 same

Bedard    03/05/1979 same

Arredondo 03/12/1984 same

Kottaras  05/16/1983 05/10/1983

Garcia    10/06/1976 same

Quintero  08/02/1979 same

Garza     11/26/1983 same

Crow      11/11/1986 11/10/1986

Blanco    12/24/1983 same


THANKS,
Kevin Johnson
www.seamheads.com


--- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, KJOK <kjokbaseball@...> wrote:
>
> Freddie Garcia's discrepancy is I think well known.  Apparently the date was
originally mis-interpreted because 6/10 internationally is October 6th not June
10th, so I believe the October 10, 1976 is now considered the official date,
although whether it's correct is another story.
>
> THANKS,
> Kevin
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: OrcomBoy <gfhill@...>
> >To: baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:22 PM
> >Subject: [baseball-databank] Birth Dates differ between database and rosters
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >Good day,
> >While I was merging the database with the current active rosters from mlb.com
I came across the following discrepancies in birth dates:
> >
> >Name           Birth     ID        MLB BD
> >Ervin Santana     12/12/82  santaer01 1/10/83
> >Erik Bedard       3/5/79    bedarer01 3/6/79
> >Jose Arredondo    3/12/84   arredjo01 3/30/84
> >George Kottaras   5/10/83   kottage01 5/16/83
> >Freddy Garcia     10/6/76   garcifr02 6/10/75
> >Humberto Quintero 8/2/79    quinthu01 8/8/79
> >Matt Garza        11/26/83  garzama01 11/11/83
> >Aaron Crow        11/10/86  crowaa01  11/11/86
> >Gregor Blanco     12/24/83  blancgr01 12/12/83
> >
> >Has anyone encountered this before? Is there any way to determine which is
correct? I was trying to calculate the average age by team, so I am using the
MLB date for now, but I am curious to see which is correct.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >Greg Hill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I don't see any draft info in the master table and no external files that seem
to contain this - is there a source for draft data elsewhere?

Is this one of those times I should contribute to the project and compile my own
to upload?

Thanks,
-Chris

The only free data that I know of is from the retrosheet transactions database. 
But this will only contain draft info from players who made it to the major
leagues.  But since most players don't make it, a lot of the draft picks will be
missing.

If you are willing to contribute the remaining data, I'm sure we all would be
appreciative.  But I can imagine that manually adding this data would take a lot
of time.

If you are looking for a starting point with the retrosheet data, send me an
email (danielghirsch@...) and I'll send you an excel sheet that has this
data with databank's player and teamID's

Dan Hirsch



--- In baseball-databank@yahoogroups.com, "chrislambrou" <chrislambrou@...>
wrote:
>
> I don't see any draft info in the master table and no external files that seem
to contain this - is there a source for draft data elsewhere?
>
> Is this one of those times I should contribute to the project and compile my
own to upload?
>
> Thanks,
> -Chris
>

Speaking of stints, is there a consensus on the abbreviation to use for
the single-game wild card round when displaying player stats?

For example, the current abbreviations are ALDS, NLDS, ALCS, NLCS and WS.

Like this:

http://bit.ly/HJ5beA

I don't have the luxury of waiting until October. So, FWIW, we're using
'ALWC' and 'NLWC' to label stat lines for the Wild Card Showdown.

Clay

PlayerID for year 2011 is 'ortizra02' instead of 'ortizra01' in the appearances
table only.

Please let me know if I am missing something.  Thanks.
-Chris