This is from one of our umps who just joined the board.  It happened in our

first tournament game, majors.



Runner misses home.  Catcher without the ball, it never came in, says out loud

he missed home.  Manager calls time out to talk with the pitcher.  The catcher

tells the manager the runner missed the base.  Manager yells to PU that hey I

want to appeal that play.  PU informs manager the ball must be live for any

appeal.  The manager returns, Pitcher toes the rubber, PU says play.  Without

disengaging the rubber the pitchers throws an outside pitch to the catcher.



What have you got, Ball to the batter, Illegal pitch ball to the batter, proper

appeal, batter is out.



Russ

Just to clarify-the picther clearly was not "pitching." I would define it has a

"pitch out."  The pitcher, in a relaxed manner (not his normal windup), threw

the ball to the catcher who was far to the outside (in the LH batters box,) when

he caught the ball.  There was no intent to throw a strike or a hitable pitch,

he was just trying to get the ball to the catcher.



There was no doubt this was an appeal attempt since the coach said that was his

intention and the catcher verbally stated "the last runner did not touch the

plate" after he received the ball from the pitcher and then he stepped on home

plate.

At this point I am not so convinced it was a ball. To the contrary there is a

strong arguement that this was a proper appeal:



Source: 2009 Little League Rule Book



PG 50 Rule 2.00 Definition of a Base- A base is one of four points which must be

touched by a runner in order to score a run; more usually applied to the canvas

bags and the rubber plate which mark the base points.



Source: 2009 Little League Rule Book



PG 82 Rule 8:05  An illegal pitch when a runner or runners are on base is

when....



(d) the pitcher, when touching the plate, throws, or feints a throw to an

occupied base, except for the purpose of making a play



Source: 2009 Little League Umpire School Rules Instruction Manual (RIM)



PG 83 Rule 8:05 (d) Instructor Comments:

"Throwing to an unocccupied base to make an appeal is acceptable and not a

balk."





So if the pitcher threw to an unoccupied "base" (Per defnition- in this case

home plate) for the purpose of making a play (per Rule 8:05 (d) and which

according to the RIM interpretation is perfectly fine- why is this not a proper

appeal?

A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.



How can you not call a pitcher who is properly engaged with the rubber and

throwing to home not a pitch?



As I said in my initial post above there was very little doubt in anyone's mind

(specifically mine as the PU) what was occurring:



"The pitcher, in a relaxed manner (not his normal windup), threw the ball to the

catcher who was far to the outside (in the LH batters box,) when he caught the

ball. There was no intent to throw a strike or a hitable pitch, he was just

trying to get the ball to the catcher."



I do not believe, had the pitcher been throwing to the batter, that the catcher

would have stood up during the windup, step to his right away from the batter,

catch the ball, then turn to me and state "the last runner did not touch the

plate" and step on the plate with the ball in his possession.

> Just to clarify-the picther clearly was not "pitching."



What defines a pitch is being in contact with the rubber and throwing toward the

plate. You can not redefine what a pitch is. If you are going to make an appeal

to the plate you must first step off with the pivot foot. Then make the appeal.

If you are in contact with the rubber when you throw home it is by definition a

pitch.



It does not make a difference what the pitcher intended to do. What he failed to

do was step off therefore from the rubber he is a pitcher and throwing at that

time is a pitch. By stepping off he then becomes an infielder and can throw (not

pitch)to any base he would like. But just as he cannot fake to first from the

rubber you cannot throw home from the rubber except to deliver a pitch.



Therefore it is either a ball or an IP.



clay

--- In WRLLUmpires@yahoogroups.com, "llcad33" <llcad33@...> wrote:

>

> > Just to clarify-the picther clearly was not "pitching."

>

> What defines a pitch is being in contact with the rubber and throwing toward

the plate. You can not redefine what a pitch is. If you are going to make an

appeal to the plate you must first step off with the pivot foot. Then make the

appeal. If you are in contact with the rubber when you throw home it is by

definition a pitch.

>

> It does not make a difference what the pitcher intended to do. What he failed

to do was step off therefore from the rubber he is a pitcher and throwing at

that time is a pitch. By stepping off he then becomes an infielder and can throw

(not pitch)to any base he would like. But just as he cannot fake to first from

the rubber you cannot throw home from the rubber except to deliver a pitch.

>

> Therefore it is either a ball or an IP.

>

> clay





I respectfully disagree, The definition of a pitch which Jay posted verbatim

from Rule 2.0 is: "A ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher."



Not sure where you are getting "What defines a pitch is being in contact with

the rubber and throwing toward the plate." If anyone is redefining what a pitch

is-you just did.



Can you tell me where this is in the rule book or RIM?  Because I can not find

it.



  What I can find in the RIM on PG 31 immediately following the defintion of a

pitch on pg 31 is:



"All other deliveries of the ball by one player to another are thrown balls."



I think that is the crux of the "interpretation"-was it a ball delivered to the

batter by the pitcher or was it a delivery of the ball by one player to another

which is a thrown ball?



Keep in mind- there is no requirement to disengage from the rubber to make an

appeal play.



Darrell

AZ D2

















>

What wasn't stated in the OP and, after reading Batman's rulings, IMO is the

determining factor in weather it's a pitch or appeal is... was the batter in the

box when the ball was thrown to the catcher?.



Pitcher on rubber, the ball is live, batter in box, pitcher delivers ball to

catcher...That's a pitch. The fact that everyone knew what was happening is

irrelevant.



Pitcher on rubber, ball is live, batter NOT in box, pitcher delivers the pall to

the catcher who, properly appeals to the PU which runner (if multiple) they are

making the appeal on. That's an appeal.





--- In WRLLUmpires@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Batterman" <batman@...> wrote:

>

>  Some pretty heated discussion on this one.  It seems to come up every

> year, and has been beat up each year.  Here is the ruling from EVERY

> authority out there including LL, PONY, USSSA, Evans, R/R, etc.

>

> All the arguments about 'unoccupied base', the plate being a BASE, clear

> intent to APPEAL, etc. are all good points, and if the truth were

> know...  I agree with the position you can make an appeal from the rubber

> to the plate.  However, I (we) are in the minority.  The consensus and

> rulings are:

>

> If the pitcher while in contact with the pitching plate, delivers the

> ball to the catcher, with a Batter in the box, it shall be considered a

> PITCH (or an Illegal Pitch/ Balk depending on the situation).  If there

> is NO Batter in the box, the Pitcher MAY appeal from the rubber to the

> plate, although it is not a good idea or practice.  In effect, this is no

> different than a pitcher requesting a new ball prior to the next batter

> entering the box, and without requesting 'time', he throws the ball to

> the catcher.  Time IS NOT out in this situation until the Umpire either

> take the old ball from the catcher, or take a new ball from his bag (when

> the umpire holds the ball time shall be out... by rule).  The presents of

> a Batter in the box, is the test, and MUST be strictly adhered to. 

> Although I believe the umpire can request the Batter to vacate the box,

> allowing for the appeal (I see this as a 'Game Management' issue and not

> assistance), there is a thought line out there among umpires, that feels

> the Umpire is ASSISTING the defense with their appeal id he does this.

>

> Hope this helps.

>

> BATMAN

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: russkyl49

>   To: WRLLUmpires@yahoogroups.com

>   Subject: [WRLLUmpires] Appeal from the rubber

>   Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:08:56 -0000

>

>

>

>   This is from one of our umps who just joined the board. It happened

>   in our first tournament game, majors.

>

>   Runner misses home. Catcher without the ball, it never came in, says

>   out loud he missed home. Manager calls time out to talk with the

>   pitcher. The catcher tells the manager the runner missed the base.

>   Manager yells to PU that hey I want to appeal that play. PU informs

>   manager the ball must be live for any appeal. The manager returns,

>   Pitcher toes the rubber, PU says play. Without disengaging the rubber

>   the pitchers throws an outside pitch to the catcher.

>

>   What have you got, Ball to the batter, Illegal pitch ball to the

>   batter, proper appeal, batter is out.

>

>   Russ

>

>

>

> --

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