Everybody asleep or nobody interested?



In Ushuaia it is the talk of the town!







500 m



39,50



36,00



1000 m



1.18,50



1.11,00



1500 m



2.00,00



1.49,00



3000 m



4.15,00



n.a.



5000 m



7.20,00 or 4.10,00 (3000 m)



6.35,00



10 0000 m



n.a.



13.30.00 or 6.30.00 (5000 m)







details at







http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1482







some picture of last weekend at



http://labestiadeportiva.com.ar/bestia/index.php?blog=1&title=patinaje_de_veloci\

dad_sobre_hielo_laguna&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1







Marnix







ps the international event in Punta Arenas unfortunately has to be cancelled due

to Influenza-related restrictions on public meetings....



________________________________

De informatie vervat in deze e-mail en meegezonden bijlagen is uitsluitend

bedoeld voor gebruik door de geadresseerde en kan vertrouwelijke informatie

bevatten. Openbaarmaking, vermenigvuldiging, verspreiding en/of verstrekking van

deze informatie aan derden is voorbehouden aan geadresseerde. De VPRO staat niet

in voor de juiste en volledige overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden

e-mail, noch voor tijdige ontvangst daarvan.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com, Marnix Koolhaas <m.koolhaas@...> wrote:

>

> Everybody asleep or nobody interested?

>

> In Ushuaia it is the talk of the town!



>

> 1500 m

>

> 2.00,00

>

> 1.49,00

>

> 3000 m

>

> 4.15,00

>

> n.a.

>

> 5000 m

>

> 7.20,00 or 4.10,00 (3000 m)

>

> 6.35,00

>

> 10 0000 m

>

> n.a.

>

> 13.30.00 or 6.30.00 (5000 m)





Actually, I see a lot of skaters that will miss these marks in Vancouver....   I

think that is funny you have to skate faster than what you will skate at the

games.  I know altitude....  but it still makes me giggle about the absurd time

standard rules that the ISU/IOC has to make to make the sport look smaller that

it even is. (my personal opinion).



BTW, have you seen who is named as one of the most "EXCITING ATHLETES" of winter

sports along side speedskater Dan Jensen?  Not Eric Heiden, not Bonnie Blair,

not Derrek Parra  (slanted to the american public since this was an American

publication).  No, it was.....



Take a look at who is at number 10 and number 5 (both of which would never have

taken part in winter Olympcs had standards been imposed back then) Maybe their

only sin is that they FOR SURE did not take "performance enhancing" substances:



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tim_layden/06/26/thrill.list/index\

.html



From SLC,  where the ice is up and will be open next week.



Eric Kraan.

Elwiz wrote:



> Take a look at who is at number 10 and number 5 (both of which would never

have taken part in winter Olympcs had standards been imposed back then)



When speed skating was Norway's most popular winter sports, the totally amateur

participants from 'exotic' countries were always among the public's greatest

favourites. Still athletes like this got lots of attantion in sports that still

allows them. Grave commentators tend to mention them as the ultimate proof of

the sport's world wide importance.



Indeed speed skating is hurting itself by limiting its participation.



And doing it to pursuit a dream of live TV coverage, that's only imaginable in 2

or 3 countries anyway.





-------------

T.B.Hansen

Terje wrote:

> Indeed speed skating is hurting itself by limiting its participation.

>

> And doing it to pursuit a dream of live TV coverage, that's only imaginable in

2 or 3 countries anyway.



No it's not. The IOC has imposed a limit on the number of speed skating

competitors, so the ISU needs some way to select them.

Jeroen Heijmans:



> The IOC has imposed a limit on the number of speed skating competitors, so the

ISU needs some way to select them.

>



The ISU started its limitation policy long before the IOC came to think of it,

and they apply them to their own ISU championships and World Cup as wel as the

Olympics.



And, as pointed out by others: The Olympic Qualification times seems to be

strickter than

the IOC demands.





-----------

TBH

Den 12. jul. 2009 kl. 19.53 skreiv T.B.Hansen:



> The ISU started its limitation policy long before the IOC came to

> think of it, and they apply them to their own ISU championships and

> World Cup as wel as the Olympics.

>



Well, as a matter of fact there was no participation limit until the

1924 OG where each country could enter only 4 skaters in each

distance. As this excluded many good allrounders, this lead to the

present awkward situation of the games being only a single-distance

event.



I believe it was the IOC and not the ISU who imposed that limit. Any

limits to participation in the ISU championships weren't imposed

until 1948.



LEF



...from Redalsgrend, where I'm briefly back home...

Lars Finsen:



> I believe it was the IOC and not the ISU who imposed that limit. Any

> limits to participation in the ISU championships weren't imposed

> until 1948.



That's national quotas.



Qualification times were introduced by the ISU in the 1980's; originally to

avoid skaters from Spain and Greece.



-----------

TBH

Terje:

> The ISU started its limitation policy long before the IOC came to

> think of it, and they apply them to their own ISU championships and

> World Cup as wel as the Olympics.



Well, yeah, but your remark was that "speed skating is hurting itself by

limiting its participation (...) to pursuit a dream of live TV coverage", which

is may be true for the other competitions, but since the ISU allows more

competitors into the Olympics than the WSD, that's a rather odd statement to

make, right?



However, qualifying times may not be the best way to pick a maximum number of

competitors. Why not, if the quotum for a distance is 40, pick the 40 fastest

skaters, rather than all skaters that have met some limit that will probably be

met by some 40 skaters? Or pick the top 40 in the World Cup ranking, to exclude

high altitude rinks from the equasion and increase WC participation?

Jeroen Heijmans:



> Well, yeah, but your remark was that "speed skating is hurting itself by

limiting its participation (...) to pursuit a dream of live TV coverage", which

is may be true for the other competitions, but since the ISU allows more

competitors into the Olympics than the WSD, that's a rather odd statement to

make, right?



It was a general comment on ISU politics, aimed at the comment to the post about

Olympic time limits; not at the post about the limits itself.



> However, qualifying times may not be the best way to pick a maximum number of

competitors. Why not, if the quotum for a distance is 40, pick the 40 fastest

skaters, rather than all skaters that have met some limit that will probably be

met by some 40 skaters?



Without national quotas, that would mean that the bulk of the participants would

come from a few countries, and that there would be no participants from

'smaller' countries. Which would be very bad and stregthen the usual argument,

that speed skating is a small and indignificant sport.



With national quotas, it might lead to the participation of a few skaters that

would not meat the strict criteria the ISU want to be met. Which is OK for me,

but bad in the eyes of the ISU.



Anyway, the idea of a ranking -- being it based on times or on World Cup

achievements --- deciding the participation of a one-time event, violates my

ideas of a one-time event.



I simply want such an event to allow the start of the athletes that's the best

at the moment of the event -- not those who peaked two or three months before to

meet the qaulification criteria.





-------------

T.B.Hansen



(whith a slight fever that might make his English a little strange.)

TB Hansen;  "Without national quotas, that would mean that the bulk of the

participants would come from a few countries, and that there would be no

participants from 'smaller' countries. Which would be very bad and strengthen

the usual argument, that speed skating is a small and insignificant sport."



Speed skating IS a small and insignificant sport in most countries.  Why not

focus the sport on the countries where it actually thrives?



I am so tired of this argument that we need to create an illusion that the sport

is this great global phenomenon.   Why must speed skating continually screw over

legitimate world class athletes in favour of inferior skaters, in the interest

of perpetuating the hoax that this is a wildly popular sport in countries that

it isn't?



I've said it before, and I'll say it now, and I'll say it next time this subject

gets covered; If you want to see a vibrant cornucopia of pretty national flags

and mixed culture, go to Disneyland and take a ride on "It's a Small World".  If

you want to see good speed skating, lose the national quotas and let the best

skaters skate at the highest level.



If you want to develop the sport in new nations, you have to do it by actually

developing actual opportunities to do the sport in those nations.  You have to

do it by selling the joy of participation, self-improvement and competition. 

You have to do it by creating clubs, rinks and programs.  Those tasks are hard,

and take time and effort - and aren't as sexy as World Cup, World Championship

and Olympic participation, but those are the things that really matter.





From: Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf Of T.B.Hansen

Sent: July-17-09 5:43 AM

To: Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Skate] Re: Olympic qualification times







Jeroen Heijmans:



> Well, yeah, but your remark was that "speed skating is hurting itself by

limiting its participation (...) to pursuit a dream of live TV coverage", which

is may be true for the other competitions, but since the ISU allows more

competitors into the Olympics than the WSD, that's a rather odd statement to

make, right?



It was a general comment on ISU politics, aimed at the comment to the post about

Olympic time limits; not at the post about the limits itself.



> However, qualifying times may not be the best way to pick a maximum number of

competitors. Why not, if the quotum for a distance is 40, pick the 40 fastest

skaters, rather than all skaters that have met some limit that will probably be

met by some 40 skaters?



Without national quotas, that would mean that the bulk of the participants would

come from a few countries, and that there would be no participants from

'smaller' countries. Which would be very bad and stregthen the usual argument,

that speed skating is a small and indignificant sport.



With national quotas, it might lead to the participation of a few skaters that

would not meat the strict criteria the ISU want to be met. Which is OK for me,

but bad in the eyes of the ISU.



Anyway, the idea of a ranking -- being it based on times or on World Cup

achievements --- deciding the participation of a one-time event, violates my

ideas of a one-time event.



I simply want such an event to allow the start of the athletes that's the best

at the moment of the event -- not those who peaked two or three months before to

meet the qaulification criteria.



-------------

T.B.Hansen



(whith a slight fever that might make his English a little strange.)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Patrick,

I agree 100% with you.  As long as you speak of World Cups, World Championships,

or the like.  Why does speedskating even have national quotas is beyond me.   If

you are a man that could take 6th place in the world, but the top 5 are from the

same country right now you have no chance of participating.  Meanwhile, good old

me, is skating around in a world cup.  AGREED!  It is an individual sport and as

such it should be treated and I would say that nobody should even wear national

uniforms.  Let them use their sponsor's (that will increase the income of the

sport and make it more profitable.



Now, as for the Olympic Games, that is different.  Those are not Championships

(even if the ISU cancels the SD Championship on Olympic years) it is an Olympic

event.   Right now, the Argentinian contingency.  An effort that is a far cry

from Eddie The Eagle, or Eric Kraan (if you want to bunch me with Eddie, I'll

wear that distinction with pride), is out of the Olympics.  I find this

ridiculous and unfair.  Now, I do admit that I am from the camp that if you are

the best your country has to offer in a particular sport, and the country is

willing to send you, then the Olympic Games should be the venue that those

people that some would say are "amateurs", part-timers, or not to the highest

level, should take part.  Not because it will grow the sport, or make it look

important, or even because of the health of the sport, but because they belong

to the community of nations and through the sport they are taking a message to

the world and back home that "we" belong in this planet.  So if a Kenyan,

Argentinian, Mexican, or a person from anywhere in this planet decides to strap

a pair of skates, skis, a bike, or running shoes and try his/her hardest and

his/her country want to celebrate his/her participation in the Olympic Games. 

LET THEM BE.  If you want Elite level competition, with only skaters that can do

sub 36 secs on the 500 and sub 13:30 on the 10k, then make that the World

Championships, World Cups, etc, this is a celebration of peace and brotherhood.



From Salt Lake City, where I will take my slow ass to the fastest ice on earth

today, and celebrate my humanity with the pain and hard effort it takes to do a

few slow laps around the track.



Eric Kraan.













--- In Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Seltsam <pseltsam@...> wrote:

>

> TB Hansen;  "Without national quotas, that would mean that the bulk of the

participants would come from a few countries, and that there would be no

participants from 'smaller' countries. Which would be very bad and strengthen

the usual argument, that speed skating is a small and insignificant sport."

>

> Speed skating IS a small and insignificant sport in most countries.  Why not

focus the sport on the countries where it actually thrives?

>

> I am so tired of this argument that we need to create an illusion that the

sport is this great global phenomenon.   Why must speed skating continually

screw over legitimate world class athletes in favour of inferior skaters, in the

interest of perpetuating the hoax that this is a wildly popular sport in

countries that it isn't?

>

> I've said it before, and I'll say it now, and I'll say it next time this

subject gets covered; If you want to see a vibrant cornucopia of pretty national

flags and mixed culture, go to Disneyland and take a ride on "It's a Small

World".  If you want to see good speed skating, lose the national quotas and let

the best skaters skate at the highest level.

>

> If you want to develop the sport in new nations, you have to do it by actually

developing actual opportunities to do the sport in those nations.  You have to

do it by selling the joy of participation, self-improvement and competition. 

You have to do it by creating clubs, rinks and programs.  Those tasks are hard,

and take time and effort - and aren't as sexy as World Cup, World Championship

and Olympic participation, but those are the things that really matter.

>

>

> From: Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf Of T.B.Hansen

> Sent: July-17-09 5:43 AM

> To: Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [Skate] Re: Olympic qualification times

>

>

>

> Jeroen Heijmans:

>

> > Well, yeah, but your remark was that "speed skating is hurting itself by

limiting its participation (...) to pursuit a dream of live TV coverage", which

is may be true for the other competitions, but since the ISU allows more

competitors into the Olympics than the WSD, that's a rather odd statement to

make, right?

>

> It was a general comment on ISU politics, aimed at the comment to the post

about Olympic time limits; not at the post about the limits itself.

>

> > However, qualifying times may not be the best way to pick a maximum number

of competitors. Why not, if the quotum for a distance is 40, pick the 40 fastest

skaters, rather than all skaters that have met some limit that will probably be

met by some 40 skaters?

>

> Without national quotas, that would mean that the bulk of the participants

would come from a few countries, and that there would be no participants from

'smaller' countries. Which would be very bad and stregthen the usual argument,

that speed skating is a small and indignificant sport.

>

> With national quotas, it might lead to the participation of a few skaters that

would not meat the strict criteria the ISU want to be met. Which is OK for me,

but bad in the eyes of the ISU.

>

> Anyway, the idea of a ranking -- being it based on times or on World Cup

achievements --- deciding the participation of a one-time event, violates my

ideas of a one-time event.

>

> I simply want such an event to allow the start of the athletes that's the best

at the moment of the event -- not those who peaked two or three months before to

meet the qaulification criteria.

>

> -------------

> T.B.Hansen

>

> (whith a slight fever that might make his English a little strange.)

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Patrick Seltsam:



> I am so tired of this argument that we need to create an illusion that the

sport is this great global phenomenon.   Why must speed skating continually

screw over legitimate world class athletes in favour of inferior skaters, in the

interest of perpetuating the hoax that this is a wildly popular sport in

countries that it isn't?



Speed skating surely needs to focus on popularity in the few countries where

it's already popular. But that's not the same thing as keeping other countries

out of international competitions.



When I'm looking at small sports in my own country, as well as small sport in

other countries that I know of, there's one thing that's obvious:



Building a sport is very much a matter of funding. There's currently only one

realistic basis of fundning sports (being it private sponsoring or government

support):



To make the athletes visible through high level international participation.



Participating in Olympic Games or World Championships is simply the only way to

get money.



Media attention is a part of this. Not many countries do actually have media

coverage of speed skating. Winter sports giant Sweden have hardly had it since

the heydays of Tomas Gustafson. Even in Norway, which is the second most speed

skating focused country in the world, there's hardly no attention on the events

with no Norwegian participants.



Speed skating was a major winter sport in Northern Europe, but it's turning into

a niche thing even here. There's many reasons for that -- but in my opinion,

limiting the participation -- and thus making the sport smaller -- is a part of

it.



-------------

T.B.Hansen

These are very sharp qualification times. I guess potential candidates at

least have to go to Calgary or SLC to skate these times. And even then: I

calculated how many skaters would start, based on past season's results. So,

with the World Cups as qualifying events and with these qualification times.

Apart from the longest distances (with 16 participants), only the 1000m men

would have a full quota (40 participants).



The other distances:

500 m women: 34 (out of 36)

1000 m women: 34 (out of 36)

1500 m women: 27 (out of 36)

3000 m women: 21 (out of 28)



500 m men: 36 (out of 40)

1000 m men: 40 (out of 40)

1500 m men: 33 (out of 40)

5000 m men: 25 (out of 28)



Marcel



----- Original Message -----

From: "Marnix Koolhaas" <m.koolhaas@...>

To: <Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 3:31 AM

Subject: [Skate] Olympic qualification times





> Everybody asleep or nobody interested?

>

> In Ushuaia it is the talk of the town!

>

>

>

> 500 m

>

> 39,50

>

> 36,00

>

> 1000 m

>

> 1.18,50

>

> 1.11,00

>

> 1500 m

>

> 2.00,00

>

> 1.49,00

>

> 3000 m

>

> 4.15,00

>

> n.a.

>

> 5000 m

>

> 7.20,00 or 4.10,00 (3000 m)

>

> 6.35,00

>

> 10 0000 m

>

> n.a.

>

> 13.30.00 or 6.30.00 (5000 m)

>

>

Is this the same tournament that has as its motto

"participation is more important than winning" ?



They should state lowland and highland limits for both indoor and outdoor

rinks, imho



When you skate in the open air on a lowland rink some of these limits are

too though

for even skaters like Shani Davis, Sven Kramer Anni Friesinger or Cindy

Classen.



Some people -or their unions- just cannot afford a trip to SLC or Calgary.



Dirk

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcel Warnaar" <mwarnaar@...>

Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:28 PM

To: <Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Skate] Olympic qualification times



> These are very sharp qualification times. I guess potential candidates at

> least have to go to Calgary or SLC to skate these times. And even then: I

> calculated how many skaters would start, based on past season's results.

> So,

> with the World Cups as qualifying events and with these qualification

> times.

> Apart from the longest distances (with 16 participants), only the 1000m

> men

> would have a full quota (40 participants).

>

> The other distances:

> 500 m women: 34 (out of 36)

> 1000 m women: 34 (out of 36)

> 1500 m women: 27 (out of 36)

> 3000 m women: 21 (out of 28)

>

> 500 m men: 36 (out of 40)

> 1000 m men: 40 (out of 40)

> 1500 m men: 33 (out of 40)

> 5000 m men: 25 (out of 28)

>

> Marcel

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Marnix Koolhaas" <m.koolhaas@...>

> To: <Speed_skating@yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 3:31 AM

> Subject: [Skate] Olympic qualification times

>

>

>> Everybody asleep or nobody interested?

>>

>> In Ushuaia it is the talk of the town!

>>

>>

>>

>> 500 m

>>

>> 39,50

>>

>> 36,00

>>

>> 1000 m

>>

>> 1.18,50

>>

>> 1.11,00

>>

>> 1500 m

>>

>> 2.00,00

>>

>> 1.49,00

>>

>> 3000 m

>>

>> 4.15,00

>>

>> n.a.

>>

>> 5000 m

>>

>> 7.20,00 or 4.10,00 (3000 m)

>>

>> 6.35,00

>>

>> 10 0000 m

>>

>> n.a.

>>

>> 13.30.00 or 6.30.00 (5000 m)

>>

>>