From an article at icenetwork.com on Alexander Fadeev:

"

"Nice photo of him and his wife to accompany article.

He's still coaching in the Chicago area, where

he's lived for over 20 years."





Actually Lois Elfman, the author, got it wrong. Fadeev has been in the midwest

for 20 years since coming to the States but not in Chicago. I'm pretty sure he

settled in Midland, MI. and taught skating there for many years before moving to

Illinois. Not to long ago there was a podcast with him by a woman who posts over

at FSU and he talked about that. Apparently he was very happy in Midland but

after 9/11 in 2001 the work pretty much dried up forcing him to relocate. He

said he was very happy in Midland and would have liked to stay there but it just

didn't make economic sense to do so.



As an eligible skater I was always a big fan of Fadeev's. He was super fast over

the ice and was a great jumper. A really exciting skater. His LP in Toyko back

in 1985 when he won his only world title is one for the ages.





David Forberg





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here's a story I just found by Googling that name out of idle curiosity today:



http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1612803



It's from a Kingston, Ontario newspaper, where the city's drum and bugle corps

is celebrating its 50th anniversary. It quotes alumni of the group who still

come out to hear it play and get inspired just by being there.



"'I almost picked up a horn when I got here today," said Brian Orser, 58, who

joined the corps in 1967, one of many in his family to don a Grenadiers'

uniform.



"'It's the desire to perform. It gets into your blood. It's like any musician

out there. You just want to keep performing.'



"His brother, Doug Orser, 72, was a founding member of the corps and has marched

in more than 500 shows in 50 years. He picked up a horn to play in the

performance Saturday afternoon...



"The Grenadiers fell out of fashion as the decades moved along. The average age

of members rose as fewer young people joined the corps, distracted by other

options and possibly dissuaded by the eight-hour practices needed to make

perfect every step of every formation and every note of every piece.



"'There's too many things going on for kids,' Doug Orser said. 'It takes a

certain kind of person to spend eight hours a day on the field.'"



And, he might have added, a certain kind of person to spend hours and hours a

day on the ice.



Anyway, this article amused me because I learned long ago that the Orser side of

Brian-the-Skating-Orser's family hails from people who settled in Kingston back

in the 18th century, and I understand that there are still roads you can drive

down in the area where you will find numerous mailboxes bearing the Orser name.



This article not only suggested that this is true--it told me that if you look

hard enough, you can even find a Brian Orser in Kingston. One who, once upon a

time, had the discipline to train eight hours a day so he could perform for the

public. And, sometimes, still feels the urge to do so.



Maybe musicality, the thirst to perform, and the discipline to put them to use

are just in the Orser blood.



Trudi

Just to clarify, Brian the skater was born 18 December, 1961.







2009/7/11 <tmarrapodi@...>



>

>

>

> Here's a story I just found by Googling that name out of idle curiosity

> today:

>

> http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1612803

>

> It's from a Kingston, Ontario newspaper, where the city's drum and bugle

> corps is celebrating its 50th anniversary. It quotes alumni of the group who

> still come out to hear it play and get inspired just by being there.

>

> "'I almost picked up a horn when I got here today," said Brian Orser, 58,

> who joined the corps in 1967, one of many in his family to don a Grenadiers'

> uniform.

>

> "'It's the desire to perform. It gets into your blood. It's like any

> musician out there. You just want to keep performing.'

>

> "His brother, Doug Orser, 72, was a founding member of the corps and has

> marched in more than 500 shows in 50 years. He picked up a horn to play in

> the performance Saturday afternoon...

>

> "The Grenadiers fell out of fashion as the decades moved along. The average

> age of members rose as fewer young people joined the corps, distracted by

> other options and possibly dissuaded by the eight-hour practices needed to

> make perfect every step of every formation and every note of every piece.

>

> "'There's too many things going on for kids,' Doug Orser said. 'It takes a

> certain kind of person to spend eight hours a day on the field.'"

>

> And, he might have added, a certain kind of person to spend hours and hours

> a day on the ice.

>

> Anyway, this article amused me because I learned long ago that the Orser

> side of Brian-the-Skating-Orser's family hails from people who settled in

> Kingston back in the 18th century, and I understand that there are still

> roads you can drive down in the area where you will find numerous mailboxes

> bearing the Orser name.

>

> This article not only suggested that this is true--it told me that if you

> look hard enough, you can even find a Brian Orser in Kingston. One who, once

> upon a time, had the discipline to train eight hours a day so he could

> perform for the public. And, sometimes, still feels the urge to do so.

>

> Maybe musicality, the thirst to perform, and the discipline to put them to

> use are just in the Orser blood.

>

> Trudi

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ryk L wrote:



>Just to clarify, Brian the skater was born 18 December, 1961.

>

>

>

Yeah, as soon as I saw Brian Orser, 58, I knew it had to be a different

guy.  That would have made him 37 in Calgary.  Interesting, though, that

he is probably a distant relation.



Susan McC

Brian would have been 26, turning 27 in December.



2009/7/11 Susan <smc413@...>



>

>

> ryk L wrote:

>

> >Just to clarify, Brian the skater was born 18 December, 1961.

> >

> >

> >

> Yeah, as soon as I saw Brian Orser, 58, I knew it had to be a different

> guy. That would have made him 37 in Calgary. Interesting, though, that

> he is probably a distant relation.

>

> Susan McC

>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just received news that Rosaleen Kaye had a stroke.  This is FYI

for her list friends and anyone who might be tape/disk trading with

her.  I spoke very briefly with her mother who says that she's

"coming along" but still can't communicate.  Her mother is trying to

determine if there are any tickets she might have that need using.

Fingers crossed that she will be well enough to use her Olympics

tickets.



If you have any information you'd like to convey to her mother, email

me privately and I will give you her phone number.

--

Carol Wang 		 http://www.daoofsilk.com/  The Dao of Silk

http://www.chineseknotting.org  The Chinese Knotting Home Page

http://www.skate.org/ 	 Information for the Figure Skating Fan

 

Well, there was an article in the sports page that they're having Igor Moskvin's

birthday (80th) at the Yubelieni ice palace, and there will be exhibition skates

by Voronov, Kawaguchi/Smirnov, Mukhortova/Trankov and Leonova, and the mayor and

other bigwigs are expected to show.  Of course, the article gave the address and

said the show was "FREE", but failed to mention date or time. Perhaps this is

like a regular birthday and you just show up whenever you want sometime after

your workday has finished????  Well, if anyone is IN St. Pete, I hope you figure

out when the free show will be:)

 

Maureen









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Leonova, and the mayor and other bigwigs are expected to show.  Of course,

> the article gave the address and said the show was "FREE", but failed to

> mention date or time. Perhaps this is like a regular birthday and you just

> show up whenever you want sometime after your workday has finished????

> Well, if anyone is IN St. Pete, I hope you figure out when the free show

> will be:)



According to the post on a Russian forum, the show is on August 31st,

18:00 local time, which put it about 1:30 hours from right now.



Meanwhile if anyone is in Moscow, there is a Moscow Open Championships

scheduled to take place on AZLK skating rink on Sept. 2-5. It's a club

level competition, but some up and coming Junior skaters might take

part to check their programs before JGP events.



Anna.

At 08:32 AM 7/11/2009, Stinger2007@... wrote:



>As an eligible skater I was always a big fan of Fadeev's. He was

>super fast over the ice and was a great jumper. A really exciting

>skater. His LP in Toyko back in 1985 when he won his only world

>title is one for the ages.

>



Not to mention his 89(IIRC that was the year) Euros winning long

program. It's still one of my faves to watch when I get time. It's

too bad he was not more consistent(at least when I saw him in the

last few years of his career).

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Stinger2007@... wrote:





> As an eligible skater I was always a big fan of Fadeev's. He was super fast

over the ice and was a great jumper. A really exciting skater. His LP in Toyko

back in 1985 when he won his only world title is one for the ages.

>

>



I'll second this.  A video-clip of this performance

is the one I use to test new video-playing software

on a PC.



>>Kathy

Kathy wrote:

>>>I'll second this. A video-clip of this performance is the one I use to test

new video-playing software on a PC.>>>

 

Hmm, I can't agree.  Fadeev had, what, 7 triples (?), no second 3A, and a

mistake on the 3S.  Although he had a many interesting moves (e.g. 2A-flying

sitspin) and wonderful speed, the choppy, disco-esque music cuts were

excreable.  He really had no tempo variations, no highs and lows, no mood

changing, and no elegance.  He basically just barreled through the program,

showman style, short limbs flailing...just like Scott Hamilton, and the kind of

program that was his trademark!  Maybe that's why Hamilton just raved about it

while commentating.



don

































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Don Winn <dwinn10@...> writes:



> Hmm, I can't agree.  Fadeev had, what, 7 triples (?), no second 3A,

> and a mistake on the 3S.  Although he had a many interesting moves

> (e.g. 2A-flying sitspin) and wonderful speed, the choppy,

> disco-esque music cuts were excreable.  He really had no tempo

> variations, no highs and lows, no mood changing, and no elegance. 

> He basically just barreled through the program, showman style, short

> limbs flailing...just like Scott Hamilton, and the kind of program

> that was his trademark!  Maybe that's why Hamilton just raved about

> it while commentating.



It's easy to poke holes in Fadeev's skating looking back 20+ years on

it.  But, if you look at it in the context of his time, he really was

an amazing skater compared to the standards back then.  Maybe he

didn't do so much on the music or choreography side, but he was the

one who really started pushing the technical boundary for men.



I'm pretty sure I remember Hamilton saying at some point that he was

glad he retired because he was afraid of Fadeev, and he was right to be

afraid.  Hamilton never really had more than 3 different triples in his

repertoire, which was pretty typical of most of his peers in the late

70s and early 80s.  In his program in 1982 he did 3 toe loops, 2

salchows, and a lutz.  The next year, because of the Zayak rule, he had

to take out one of the toe loops and was trying to add the flip to make

up for it.  A lot of guys were still filling out their programs with

double jumps at that time.  Meanwhile, I think Fadeev was already

attempting a complete set of triples by 1983; it wasn't just that he had

the axel and Hamilton didn't.  In fact the jump content Fadeev was

attempting ca 1983-84 was head and shoulders above what any of the other

guys were putting in their programs, even Orser.  I have video of one of

his performances of that era with Toller Cranston commentating, and by

the end of the program Toller is totally raving over the amount and

difficulty of the technical content.  Anyway....  in Tokyo in 1985,

Orser pretty much took himself out of contention, Boitano was not "soup"

yet, and Fadeev gave one of his best performances ever, so it was a

well-deserved win.  And heck, I don't even think his music was that awful

compared to what other skaters of that era were using!  :-P



-Sandra

---- Sandra Loosemore <pondscum@...> wrote:

> Don Winn <dwinn10@...> writes:

>

> > Hmm, I can't agree.  Fadeev had, what, 7 triples (?), no second 3A,

> > and a mistake on the 3S.  Although he had a many interesting moves

> > (e.g. 2A-flying sitspin) and wonderful speed, the choppy,

> > disco-esque music cuts were excreable.  He really had no tempo

> > variations, no highs and lows, no mood changing, and no elegance.

> > He basically just barreled through the program, showman style, short

> > limbs flailing...just like Scott Hamilton, and the kind of program

> > that was his trademark!  Maybe that's why Hamilton just raved about

> > it while commentating.

>

> It's easy to poke holes in Fadeev's skating looking back 20+ years on

> it.  But, if you look at it in the context of his time, he really was

> an amazing skater compared to the standards back then.



Got to agree, and will explain why along with what Sandra said.



> Maybe he

> didn't do so much on the music or choreography side, but he was the

> one who really started pushing the technical boundary for men.



I wouldn't call him "the" one (several men were pushing the technical, or at

least jumping, boundaries at the time, including both Brians and Jozef

Sabovcik), but he was right in there.



> I'm pretty sure I remember Hamilton saying at some point that he was

> glad he retired because he was afraid of Fadeev, and he was right to be

> afraid.



Actually he expressed more fear of the Brians, but Fadeev probably didn't help

any.



> Hamilton never really had more than 3 different triples in his

> repertoire, which was pretty typical of most of his peers in the late

> 70s and early 80s.  In his program in 1982 he did 3 toe loops, 2

> salchows, and a lutz.  The next year, because of the Zayak rule, he had

> to take out one of the toe loops and was trying to add the flip to make

> up for it.  A lot of guys were still filling out their programs with

> double jumps at that time.



Very much true. And right through the '80s, many men were still taking time to

do a delayed SINGLE axel in their long programs, just to prove they could do it

because it was so impressive and audiences in those days appreciated the beauty

of that long hang time the way NBA audiences today appreciate a really

gorgeous-looking spinning move to the basket.



> Meanwhile, I think Fadeev was already

> attempting a complete set of triples by 1983; it wasn't just that he had

> the axel and Hamilton didn't.  In fact the jump content Fadeev was

> attempting ca 1983-84 was head and shoulders above what any of the other

> guys were putting in their programs, even Orser.



In the sense that Orser always had trouble with triple flip, and didn't feel the

need to begin including triple loop until later, yes. I don't know whether I'd

put him above Boitano in the jumping department, though.



I have video of one of

> his performances of that era with Toller Cranston commentating, and by

> the end of the program Toller is totally raving over the amount and

> difficulty of the technical content.  Anyway....  in Tokyo in 1985,

> Orser pretty much took himself out of contention,



To be fair, Orser was sick as a dog with pneumonia.



> Boitano was not "soup"

> yet, and Fadeev gave one of his best performances ever, so it was a

> well-deserved win.



Absolutely. And I would add, nobody in 1985 gave a damn that he had no second

triple axel, because two triple axels in a long program were not the going

standard in 1985. In fact, I believe we need to give Fadeev long-overdue credit

for being the first male skater to win worlds with ANY triple axel in his long

program, period.



Two triple axels in a long program didn't become "standard equipment" for men

until Orser did it in '87. Even then, Boitano was able to get away with winning

in '88 with none at all (he subbed a failed quad attempt for one and popped the

other) only because Orser buried himself by missing the combination in the

short, Fadeev had withdrawn with an injury after figures, and Browning (lander

of the first ISU quad) and Petrenko weren't soup yet. Under the rules and

scoring distribution at the time, and given the performances he was up against,

Boitano could afford to miss quite a bit and still win.



> And heck, I don't even think his music was that awful

> compared to what other skaters of that era were using!  :-P



Hear, hear. I have a tape someone made me of the complete men's long program

from '81 worlds, and if that provides even a taste of the dreadful music the

majority of male skaters were using at the time, it's enough. (Recall also that

men's long programs in 1981 were still five minutes long and you get some idea

of how painful the whole thing is to watch.) Men being less generally inclined

to want to skate to that "froufrou" classical music than women, the majority of

them chose to perform to what passed for more "macho" musical stylings, which in

the '80s consisted largely of:



--synthesized electronic crap...and when I say "synthesized," I don't mean

simulations of actual musical instruments; I mean stuff that SOUNDED like

electronic squeaks and squeals...a combination of R2-D2 from Star Wars and the

sounds that could be heard emanating from any video arcade of the era



--orchestral versions of popular rock songs: The London Symphony Orchestra plays

the Rolling Stones, the London Symphony Orchestra plays the Moody Blues, the

London Symphony Orchestra plays the...



--DISCO!!!! (Actually, to be fair, the disco in those days was actually of a

higher quality than some of today's dance music in that back in those days, it

was still performed using "real" instruments...REAL string sections, REAL horn

sections...but then you'd get a disco-fied version of a classical piece like

"The Firebird" or an old pop-music chestnut like "Tangerine" or whatever.



There were fewer Jerry Bruckheimer movies in those days, so the guys lacked lots

of movie soundtracks full of orchestras playing new macho music from the latest

teen blow-'em-up-real-good action flick. Lacking that, they chose, I think it is

safe to say, some of the absolute worst music available to them. And don't

forget, it was usually poorly recorded, with plenty of pops and hisses (some

competitors back in those days were still having their program music recorded

onto vinyl discs) and not much in the way of stereo fidelity, edited by a rusty

razor blade (no Macs in those days), and all too often with the telltale loud

"beep!" sound at the beginning that announced where the music officially

began...



In that climate, Fadeev's crimes of music sounded no worse than any of the other

guys'. Really.



As a person who is only going to Keep Getting Older, I feel morally obligated on

occasion to provide realistic pictures of the "good old days" of skating to

balance out the natural human tendency to misperceive the past or unfairly

compare it to today.



Trudi

> There were fewer Jerry Bruckheimer movies in those days, so the guys

> lacked lots of movie soundtracks full of orchestras playing new

> macho music from the latest teen blow-'em-up-real-good action flick.

> Lacking that, they chose, I think it is safe to say, some of the

> absolute worst music available to them. And don't forget, it was

> usually poorly recorded, with plenty of pops and hisses (some

> competitors back in those days were still having their program music

> recorded onto vinyl discs) and not much in the way of stereo

> fidelity, edited by a rusty razor blade (no Macs in those days), and

> all too often with the telltale loud "beep!" sound at the beginning

> that announced where the music officially began...

>



I both skated in the early 80's and I cut my own music. And it wasn't

done with a razor blade. It was done with a tape deck and across the

board, people used cassettes. Now granted, at 12 I was better at

cutting music than most of what makes it onto the skating scene these

days. But I hardly had a Mac.



It wasn't that it was impossible, simply that they didn't bother to do

it.



> As a person who is only going to Keep Getting Older, I feel morally

> obligated on occasion to provide realistic pictures of the "good old

> days" of skating to balance out the natural human tendency to

> misperceive the past or unfairly compare it to today.



Yeah, I was too busy skating in the early to mid 80's to remember most

of this.



dej



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Learn to use Google Analytics to make your web site more effective.

Buy my book! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047017501X/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I loathe writing. On the other hand I'm a great believer in money."

-- S.J. Perelman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In the midst of winter, I finally realized that deep within me there

lay an invincible summer.

--Albert Camus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am Writer, hear me Pontificate!

---- Mary E Tyler <dejahvu@...> wrote:

> > There were fewer Jerry Bruckheimer movies in those days, so the guys

> > lacked lots of movie soundtracks full of orchestras playing new

> > macho music from the latest teen blow-'em-up-real-good action flick.

> > Lacking that, they chose, I think it is safe to say, some of the

> > absolute worst music available to them. And don't forget, it was

> > usually poorly recorded, with plenty of pops and hisses (some

> > competitors back in those days were still having their program music

> > recorded onto vinyl discs) and not much in the way of stereo

> > fidelity, edited by a rusty razor blade (no Macs in those days), and

> > all too often with the telltale loud "beep!" sound at the beginning

> > that announced where the music officially began...

> >

>

> I both skated in the early 80's and I cut my own music. And it wasn't

> done with a razor blade. It was done with a tape deck



That's because you were a conscientious soul. :-)



> and across the

> board, people used cassettes.



Maybe in your neck of the woods they did. But maybe not everywhere.



I know that as late as 1980 or so, Brian Orser was still using vinyl. I know

because I saw the record case, once, many years ago. I know "anecdote does not

equal data," but if a skater at that level was still using it, it suggests he

probably wasn't the only one.



> Now granted, at 12 I was better at

> cutting music than most of what makes it onto the skating scene these

> days. But I hardly had a Mac.



'Course not. But to do nice music edits with a cassette player took patience and

skill. Nowadays you really don't need the patience and skill, all you need is

the right software and the ability to punch keys. Of course, all the equipment

in the world isn't going to tell you why it's a jarringly bad idea to cut Music

A at this point and insert Music B at that point, which is a whole different

kettle of fish. You had probably also developed a really good sense of what

sounded aesthetically acceptable as a segue and what would stuck out like the

proverbial sore thumb no matter how smooth the technology made the transition

sound.



> It wasn't that it was impossible, simply that they didn't bother to do

> it.



True--but it's easier now to at least deal with the mechanics.



> > As a person who is only going to Keep Getting Older, I feel morally

> > obligated on occasion to provide realistic pictures of the "good old

> > days" of skating to balance out the natural human tendency to

> > misperceive the past or unfairly compare it to today.

>

> Yeah, I was too busy skating in the early to mid 80's to remember most

> of this.

>

> dej



Yeah, while people like me were voraciously watching every second of other

people skating they could get their eyes on, and only wishing we could even hope

to look that good.



I can't claim to tell the truth about skating's past from a participant's

standpoint, but from the observer's, well, I intend to keep that memory alive.

Like the memory of the days when Dick Button used to get on Wide World of Sports

and apologize to the viewers at home because the network couldn't get the ISU to

take down the rink-board advertising before a competition. To the ISU, of

course, there was nothing any more wrong with rink-board ads than with a racing

venue draped with advertising to be seen in the background while the cars

circled the track, and of course not--they were making money from it, after all.

Dick and ABC, OTOH, found it an offensive affront to the aesthetics of figure

skating, and wanted it done away with. After all, you would never see a U.S.

National Championships with all those cheesy ads plastered all over the place...



Trudi

>> and across the

>> board, people used cassettes.

>

> Maybe in your neck of the woods they did. But maybe not everywhere.

>

> I know that as late as 1980 or so, Brian Orser was still using

> vinyl. I know because I saw the record case, once, many years ago. I

> know "anecdote does not equal data," but if a skater at that level

> was still using it, it suggests he probably wasn't the only one.



Maybe not and perhaps at the high end, but to file under "anecdote

does not equal data," Orser is ONE skater. And I'm talking about

hundreds of participants over multiple events over the course of four

years of competition. I never saw a single vinyl record, only

cassettes. Hundreds of data points is not an anecdote. One man is.



>> Now granted, at 12 I was better at

>> cutting music than most of what makes it onto the skating scene these

>> days. But I hardly had a Mac.

>

> 'Course not. But to do nice music edits with a cassette player took

> patience and skill. Nowadays you really don't need the patience and

> skill, all you need is the right software and the ability to punch

> keys.



I beg to differ. Cutting music on a tape deck took one good ear, two

fingers and three keys: play, rewind and record. It took time as well.

It took me about 3 hours to cut a 2.5 minute program in 1982. That was

two, perhaps three cuts. The most recent piece I cut was quite a while

back, from 6 minutes down to 2.5 took 6 hours for six cuts. It was no

easier and no quicker. The result was better, yes, but it took

significantly more skill and a lot more equipment. It's not cut and

paste and there is a significant time investment no matter what tool

you use.



> Of course, all the equipment in the world isn't going to tell you

> why it's a jarringly bad idea to cut Music A at this point and

> insert Music B at that point, which is a whole different kettle of

> fish. You had probably also developed a really good sense of what

> sounded aesthetically acceptable as a segue and what would stuck out

> like the proverbial sore thumb no matter how smooth the technology

> made the transition sound.



This is the truth. Most of the music cuts I hear, flatly, suck. I did

better when I was 12. Never have been able to figure out how to get

into the business of cutting skating music though. It seems like a lot

of it is pre-made and sold by the album.



>> It wasn't that it was impossible, simply that they didn't bother to

>> do

>> it.

>

> True--but it's easier now to at least deal with the mechanics.



Not "easier," significantly more complex but possible to yield vastly

better results. And tech can't buy you an ear.



dej

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Learn to use Google Analytics to make your web site more effective.

Buy my book! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047017501X/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I loathe writing. On the other hand I'm a great believer in money."

-- S.J. Perelman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In the midst of winter, I finally realized that deep within me there

lay an invincible summer.

--Albert Camus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am Writer, hear me Pontificate!

---- Mary E Tyler <dejahvu@...> wrote:

> >> and across the

> >> board, people used cassettes.

> >

> > Maybe in your neck of the woods they did. But maybe not everywhere.

> >

> > I know that as late as 1980 or so, Brian Orser was still using

> > vinyl. I know because I saw the record case, once, many years ago. I

> > know "anecdote does not equal data," but if a skater at that level

> > was still using it, it suggests he probably wasn't the only one.

>

> Maybe not and perhaps at the high end, but to file under "anecdote

> does not equal data," Orser is ONE skater. And I'm talking about

> hundreds of participants over multiple events over the course of four

> years of competition. I never saw a single vinyl record, only

> cassettes. Hundreds of data points is not an anecdote. One man is.



I agree, but something also tells me, where there is one, there is likely to be

more. Then again, I am not and was never trying to prove that HUGE numbers of

skaters were still using vinyl--just that not all of them were.

>

> >> Now granted, at 12 I was better at

> >> cutting music than most of what makes it onto the skating scene these

> >> days. But I hardly had a Mac.

> >

> > 'Course not. But to do nice music edits with a cassette player took

> > patience and skill. Nowadays you really don't need the patience and

> > skill, all you need is the right software and the ability to punch

> > keys.

>

> I beg to differ. Cutting music on a tape deck took one good ear, two

> fingers and three keys: play, rewind and record. It took time as well.



That's what I meant by "patience." Oh, and even with those, get the wrong

equipment and you had an ugly "CHUNK" sound in every edit regardless.



> It took me about 3 hours to cut a 2.5 minute program in 1982. That was

> two, perhaps three cuts. The most recent piece I cut was quite a while

> back, from 6 minutes down to 2.5 took 6 hours for six cuts. It was no

> easier and no quicker. The result was better, yes, but it took

> significantly more skill and a lot more equipment. It's not cut and

> paste and there is a significant time investment no matter what tool

> you use.



It's going to take time no matter what. How did it take more skill? I'm curious

to know.



> > Of course, all the equipment in the world isn't going to tell you

> > why it's a jarringly bad idea to cut Music A at this point and

> > insert Music B at that point, which is a whole different kettle of

> > fish. You had probably also developed a really good sense of what

> > sounded aesthetically acceptable as a segue and what would stuck out

> > like the proverbial sore thumb no matter how smooth the technology

> > made the transition sound.

>

> This is the truth. Most of the music cuts I hear, flatly, suck. I did

> better when I was 12. Never have been able to figure out how to get

> into the business of cutting skating music though. It seems like a lot

> of it is pre-made and sold by the album.

>

> >> It wasn't that it was impossible, simply that they didn't bother to

> >> do

> >> it.

> >

> > True--but it's easier now to at least deal with the mechanics.

>

> Not "easier," significantly more complex but possible to yield vastly

> better results.



Actually, that would be my own definition of "easier." Better technology and

better results. I'm probably simplifying to say that, but that's what I mean.



> And tech can't buy you an ear.



I think we're both agreed on that.



Trudi

>> I beg to differ. Cutting music on a tape deck took one good ear, two

>> fingers and three keys: play, rewind and record. It took time as

>> well.

>

> That's what I meant by "patience." Oh, and even with those, get the

> wrong equipment and you had an ugly "CHUNK" sound in every edit

> regardless.



The chunk sound is more bad technique than bad equipment. I cut music

from vinyl to cassette on my father's hi fi. It wasn't that fancy a

set. I think later I used my boom box. Neither were any great quality.



>>  The result was better, yes, but it took

>> significantly more skill and a lot more equipment. It's not cut and

>> paste and there is a significant time investment no matter what tool

>> you use.

>

> It's going to take time no matter what. How did it take more skill?

> I'm curious to know.



Well, using a tape deck is pretty easy. Just using a computer takes

skills--though we don't often think about it. Plus there are far more

options with sound software as far as filters and processing that

aren't even available when you're merely cutting one piece of music to

another on a tape deck. This is one area where I have to admit to

knowing there are things which I don't know but not knowing exactly

what those things are.



>> Not "easier," significantly more complex but possible to yield vastly

>> better results.

>

> Actually, that would be my own definition of "easier." Better

> technology and better results. I'm probably simplifying to say that,

> but that's what I mean.



You can also get shoddy results.



dej, who really ought to get her show on the road...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Learn to use Google Analytics to make your web site more effective.

Buy my book! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047017501X/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I loathe writing. On the other hand I'm a great believer in money."

-- S.J. Perelman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In the midst of winter, I finally realized that deep within me there

lay an invincible summer.

--Albert Camus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am Writer, hear me Pontificate!

---- Mary E Tyler <dejahvu@...> wrote:

> >> I beg to differ. Cutting music on a tape deck took one good ear, two

> >> fingers and three keys: play, rewind and record. It took time as

> >> well.

> >

> > That's what I meant by "patience." Oh, and even with those, get the

> > wrong equipment and you had an ugly "CHUNK" sound in every edit

> > regardless.

>

> The chunk sound is more bad technique than bad equipment. I cut music

> from vinyl to cassette on my father's hi fi. It wasn't that fancy a

> set. I think later I used my boom box. Neither were any great quality.



Interesting.



> >>  The result was better, yes, but it took

> >> significantly more skill and a lot more equipment. It's not cut and

> >> paste and there is a significant time investment no matter what tool

> >> you use.

> >

> > It's going to take time no matter what. How did it take more skill?

> > I'm curious to know.

>

> Well, using a tape deck is pretty easy. Just using a computer takes

> skills--though we don't often think about it. Plus there are far more

> options with sound software as far as filters and processing that

> aren't even available when you're merely cutting one piece of music to

> another on a tape deck. This is one area where I have to admit to

> knowing there are things which I don't know but not knowing exactly

> what those things are.



You sound like Rumsfeld now (not getting political, just funny, I hope)...I

would think the options would make it easier to make the edits sound good, even

if they're harder to learn.



> >> Not "easier," significantly more complex but possible to yield vastly

> >> better results.

> >

> > Actually, that would be my own definition of "easier." Better

> > technology and better results. I'm probably simplifying to say that,

> > but that's what I mean.

>

> You can also get shoddy results.



And a good craftsman never blames the tools, right? :-)



> dej, who really ought to get her show on the road...



Maybe you would do a good job doing this professionally...once you learned about

your known unknowns. :-) In any case, it helps a skater if someone does, that's

for sure--but I don't think a lot of people in the past knew what they were

doing with the equipment available. As for the music...well, as we said, that

ranged from excellent to really, really bad and for a while, really, really bad

electronic music was really "in." I guess we can blame Norbert Schramm for a lot

of that.



Trudi

Trudi wrote:

>>>Two triple axels in a long program didn't become "standard equipment" for men

until Orser did it in '87. Even then, Boitano was able to get away with winning

in '88 with none at all (he subbed a failed quad attempt for one and popped the

other) >>>

 

Interesting.  I didn't know Brian B won '88 Worlds without a 3A, after winning

the Olys with two!  That must be the last time a man won Worlds without a 3A

until Lambiel did it?

 

don













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---- Don Winn <dwinn10@...> wrote:

> Trudi wrote:

> >>>Two triple axels in a long program didn't become "standard equipment" for

men until Orser did it in '87. Even then, Boitano was able to get away with

winning in '88 with none at all (he subbed a failed quad attempt for one and

popped the other) >>>

>

> Interesting.  I didn't know Brian B won '88 Worlds without a 3A, after winning

the Olys with two!  That must be the last time a man won Worlds without a 3A

until Lambiel did it?

>

> don



I believe you'd be correct there--that was actually what I thought of at the

time Lambiel did. Of course, that was without going back through a recording of

every single man's performance from '89 on...if anyone can find an instance

between 1988 and then that a man won Worlds with no 3X in the long, they're

certainly welcome to.



Trudi