Whew! Well now we KNOW there couldn't be any funny business going on.
The ISU said so!
Why is my foot tapping?

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, VIKRAM SETHI <vsethi@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/2008-01-31-lysacek-weir-
scoring_N.htm
> Tie prompts USFS to double-check scoring program - USATODAY.com
>
>   "U.S. Figure Skating officials contacted the International Skating
>    Union on Wednesday about the software it uses to compute skaters'
>    scores after a question was raised following last week's tie in the
>    senior men's competition at the national championships. ...
>    At issue was whether the scoring software correctly rounded the
>    scores for a skater's program components, possibly calling
Lysacek's
>    title into question."
>
>   " ... the ISU clarified Wednesday how the software [IceCalc]
>    tabulates scores. Lysacek remains the U.S. champion."
>

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "capcomgr" <capcomop@...> wrote:
>
> Have skaters turned in their offical acceptance/refusals?


An official roster is posted on the ISU site.  It's subject to change,
of course.

http://www.isufs.org/events/fsevent00010323.htm

Thank you to all who responded with information regarding Craig's injury.

This impacts not only lifts but throws as well.

Time heals all wounds, but I wonder if there is sufficient time betweeen now
and
March for Craig to heal sufficiently and then compete without doing further
damage.

A tough call.

Best wishes to Craig!

Ryk


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/2008-01-31-lysacek-weir-scoring_N.htm
Tie prompts USFS to double-check scoring program - USATODAY.com

   "U.S. Figure Skating officials contacted the International Skating
    Union on Wednesday about the software it uses to compute skaters'
    scores after a question was raised following last week's tie in the
    senior men's competition at the national championships. ...
    At issue was whether the scoring software correctly rounded the
    scores for a skater's program components, possibly calling Lysacek's
    title into question."

   " ... the ISU clarified Wednesday how the software [IceCalc]
    tabulates scores. Lysacek remains the U.S. champion."

Well that is a miserable injury for a pairs skater to have to deal with; good
luck to him, but rotator cuffs are so "touchy" and injuries to them are hurt
like heck.  Plus -- he could make the injury far worse by training for a pairs
competition if it is half-healed.

Linda
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Elizabeth Joiner
   To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:04 PM
   Subject: Re: [SkateFans] extent of Craig Buntin's injury?



   Ryk L asks:

   > Does anyone know as to the extent of Craig Buntin's injury?

   Craig tore his rotator cuff doing a lift at the Nationals Gala and will be
   having surgery in the off-season. In the hopes of going to Worlds, they're
   not going to 4CC and he's going to have non-surgical treatment on the
   shoulder in the interim. If the injury responds to treatment, they'll do
   Worlds and he'll have the surgery right afterwards.

   Liz Joiner





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think Johnny Weir so far is skating the kind of program he is comfortable
with.  I think if he's really going after a medal -- he's going to have to go a
little bit out on a limb and try something different.

Johnny may feel he is being "different" and "true to himself" right now.....and
that may be so......but his programs still seem to give the impression of a
certain *slowness.*   I'm watching on a flat-screen monitor or t.v., and maybe
he is skating faster than it appears on these screens.  However, a number of
people have mentioned that he looks a bit slow.  There's just some kind of
impression he conveys -- and I think he needs to convey a bit more speed and
power somehow  -- added to his gorgeous jumping technique, etc., if he is going
to truly contend for an Olympic medal.

Would I ever like to see him skate with the technique he has on his elements
now, but somehow invest a little more fire in the performance and a a little
more speed.

I wonder if he will -- I wonder what he will show us in the next couple of years
(assuming he can remain uninjured).

Linda

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Cleo
   To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 4:58 PM
   Subject: Re: [SkateFans] Re: Art is War


   SallyH wrote: And I thought Overett had so much quality (despite
   the jumps) and he reminded me of Van Der Perren (not just because of
   the piraty-sword- fighting thing) because his personae was so strong
   that I could see him being SO popular all over the world if he had the
   technical ability.>>>

   Agree on the popular thing, but Overett's programs have so much more content
than VdP's.

   Re Weir, maybe "subtle" is the right word, though creating a mood as you said
may also be something people can agree to. He's still capable of much more.

   Cleo

   mskgandn <mskgandn@...> wrote:
   Cleo,
   I think you are right on. In person, Abbott's and Overett's LPs were
   just as you describe. I am not a natural Abbott fan, but I was
   engrossed (kind of like I'm not a natural Rachel Flatt fan, but fell
   right into hers). And I thought Overett had so much quality (despite
   the jumps) and he reminded me of Van Der Perren (not just because of
   the piraty-sword-fighting thing) because his personae was so strong
   that I could see him being SO popular all over the world if he had the
   technical ability.

   Per another part of this thread, Johnny attempted 3 quads in the
   warm-up, if I recall correctly. His first was right after Evan had
   landed a gorgeous 4t-3t. I think he 2-footed 2 of them and fell on one
   right before the warm-up was over. That could have effected his speed
   going into it in the program. But I don't remember the attempts as
   very fast and confident either.

   In person, I think both Weir and Lysecek have presence, but I thought
   Johnny created more of a mood with his piece. I'm not in love with
   this LP but it was definitely the best he's skated it all season, imo.

   I don't really know what to say about Evan's LP. It felt shaky to me
   throughout, even though the person behind me (a Weir fan) said 1/2 way
   through, "He's really on." I remember thinking...no he isn't. Shrug.

   SallyH

   --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Cleo <mcleomarie@...> wrote:
   >
   > I just rewatched four mens' free skates from Sunday to try to
   determine what it was about each that I found interesting, not
   interesting and so on.
   >
   > First, the programs of Jeremy Abbott and Braden Overett were
   compelling in different, yet similar ways. Both had a multitude of
   connecting moves that clearly interpreted and enhanced the music; both
   programs could be watched numerous times with the viewer finding more
   things to notice and enjoy each time. The pacing in both programs
   varied - between slow and expressive, fast and more intense (and
   expressive), back and forth. Jeremy's skating, both in the SP and LP,
   felt huge and expansive, really stepping out, and very exciting. I'd
   be curious what those who saw him in person thought. Braden is a
   master of footwork and of using it to express the music. Playing to
   his strength, he frequently begins his programs with footwork, and
   because he is so good at it, it immediately grabs the audience. His
   programs (which he choreographs) are excellent at mixing up the
   elements - jumps, footwork and spins - and how he gets from one to
   another is interesting. If you subscribe
   > to icenetwork, be sure to watch both his SP and LP (from Nationals
   and from MW Sectionals - the SP is a bit different at Sectionals).
   >
   > Johnny's skate was the most pure and clean. I find that he comes
   across better in person - he has quite a presence - moreso than on TV.
   Yet I did find this LP (and his SP) to be fairly unmemorable, I've
   watched it a few times to see what the big deal is and I just don't
   get it. Beautiful skating, but no point of view; it felt like he
   could have been skating to about anything. Maybe I needed to see it
   in person. But there just didn't seem to be a lot going on. And the
   music... bleh.
   >
   > Evan. What to say. The entire first few minutes he skated around
   from jump to jump (Ellen used the word "simple" quite a few times in
   her notes in the post that Jun referenced). He did a few little extra
   things along the way, nothing much, no musical expression (thumping
   your chest ain't it). Then the big footwork at the end, which is
   exciting (despite the flailing arms), but sheesh, how come the rest of
   the program was so forgettable and boring (unless you think jumps are
   THE THING, and they weren't great in this program). I don't get the
   high choreography and interpretation marks unless they're specifically
   for the ending footwork. The rest of the program doesn't have any. I
   think Evan is better than this. He is an excellent skater, has great
   line and needs to push himself to do better.
   >
   > Those with icenetwork should also watch Scott Smith's free skate;
   he skated well and the program was exciting (and Scott was really
   excited about skating so well <g>). Oh, and NBC is stupid for not
   showing him.
   >
   > Cleo, always opinionated
   >
   >
   >
   > ---------------------------------
   > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >

   ---------------------------------
   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ryk L asks:

> Does anyone know as to the extent of Craig Buntin's injury?


Craig tore his rotator cuff doing a lift at the Nationals Gala and will be
having surgery in the off-season.  In the hopes of going to Worlds, they're
not going to 4CC and he's going to have non-surgical treatment on the
shoulder in the interim.  If the injury responds to treatment, they'll do
Worlds and he'll have the surgery right afterwards.

Liz Joiner

Apparently he has a rotator cuff injury. He will need surgery, but they are
postponing that until
after worlds. The hope is that he will be recovered enough using non-surgery
treatment to be
able to compete at Worlds. They need a reasonably good placement at Worlds so
that their
ranking will be high enough to compete on the GP next season.

Dave

On 31 Jan 2008 at 14:18, ryk L wrote:

> Does anyone know as to the extent of Craig Buntin's injury?
> Ms. Duhamel is also in the record books as the first, with her previous
> partner
> to land side by side triple lutz's in a competition. This team has only been
> together
> 7 or 8 months.
> Ryk
>
>
> On 31/01/2008, Fred Goss <fgoss@...> wrote:
> >
> >   In the K&C at Cdns, Ms Duhamel went on about how going to Worlds
> > would be the greatest thing that has happened in her career...I think if
> > Buntin can manage it at all, they will go.
> >
> > Fred
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Stinger2007@... <Stinger2007%40comcast.net>
> > To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com <SkateFans%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:48 PM
> > Subject: [SkateFans] Weir opts out of 4 Continents
> >
> > Considering that Johnny has never gone to this event I guess it isn't a
> > surprise. I wonder if Evan will go? Jeremy Abbott will go in place of Weir
> > and remember he won the bronze medal at 4C's last year. I hope Johnny can
> > avoid his annual meltdown at worlds like we've seen for the last 3 years not
> > to mention Olympics as well. No wonder the USFSA favors Evan, I mean, with
> > Johnny's track record who can blame them.
> >
> > In pairs Dube/Davison have also opted out of 4 Continents and Craig Buntin
> > is injured so Duhamel/Buntin aren't going either. I "think" Craig Buntin is
> > still hoping to make it to worlds. Canada's 4th and 5th place pairs are both
> > ineligible due to age limits so Miller/Moram, who finished 6th at Canadians,
> > get to go as well as the 7th place couple Brodeur/Mattatall.
> >
> > David Forberg
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.17/1253 - Release Date: 1/31/08
> > 9:09 AM
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------~-~>
> SkateFans posts are copyright their original author and may not be quoted
> elsewhere without explicit written permission. Those who post to SkateFans do
> not automatically cede their copyright to any person or entity.
> ------------------------------------------_->
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

SallyH wrote:  And I thought Overett had so much quality (despite
the jumps) and he reminded me of Van Der Perren (not just because of
the piraty-sword- fighting thing) because his personae was so strong
that I could see him being SO popular all over the world if he had the
technical ability.>>>

   Agree on the popular thing, but Overett's programs have so much more content
than VdP's.

   Re Weir, maybe "subtle" is the right word, though creating a mood as you said
may also be something people can agree to.  He's still capable of much more.

   Cleo


mskgandn <mskgandn@...> wrote:
           Cleo,
I think you are right on. In person, Abbott's and Overett's LPs were
just as you describe. I am not a natural Abbott fan, but I was
engrossed (kind of like I'm not a natural Rachel Flatt fan, but fell
right into hers). And I thought Overett had so much quality (despite
the jumps) and he reminded me of Van Der Perren (not just because of
the piraty-sword-fighting thing) because his personae was so strong
that I could see him being SO popular all over the world if he had the
technical ability.

Per another part of this thread, Johnny attempted 3 quads in the
warm-up, if I recall correctly. His first was right after Evan had
landed a gorgeous 4t-3t. I think he 2-footed 2 of them and fell on one
right before the warm-up was over. That could have effected his speed
going into it in the program. But I don't remember the attempts as
very fast and confident either.

In person, I think both Weir and Lysecek have presence, but I thought
Johnny created more of a mood with his piece. I'm not in love with
this LP but it was definitely the best he's skated it all season, imo.

I don't really know what to say about Evan's LP. It felt shaky to me
throughout, even though the person behind me (a Weir fan) said 1/2 way
through, "He's really on." I remember thinking...no he isn't. Shrug.

SallyH

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Cleo <mcleomarie@...> wrote:
>
> I just rewatched four mens' free skates from Sunday to try to
determine what it was about each that I found interesting, not
interesting and so on.
>
> First, the programs of Jeremy Abbott and Braden Overett were
compelling in different, yet similar ways. Both had a multitude of
connecting moves that clearly interpreted and enhanced the music; both
programs could be watched numerous times with the viewer finding more
things to notice and enjoy each time. The pacing in both programs
varied - between slow and expressive, fast and more intense (and
expressive), back and forth. Jeremy's skating, both in the SP and LP,
felt huge and expansive, really stepping out, and very exciting. I'd
be curious what those who saw him in person thought. Braden is a
master of footwork and of using it to express the music. Playing to
his strength, he frequently begins his programs with footwork, and
because he is so good at it, it immediately grabs the audience. His
programs (which he choreographs) are excellent at mixing up the
elements - jumps, footwork and spins - and how he gets from one to
another is interesting. If you subscribe
> to icenetwork, be sure to watch both his SP and LP (from Nationals
and from MW Sectionals - the SP is a bit different at Sectionals).
>
> Johnny's skate was the most pure and clean. I find that he comes
across better in person - he has quite a presence - moreso than on TV.
Yet I did find this LP (and his SP) to be fairly unmemorable, I've
watched it a few times to see what the big deal is and I just don't
get it. Beautiful skating, but no point of view; it felt like he
could have been skating to about anything. Maybe I needed to see it
in person. But there just didn't seem to be a lot going on. And the
music... bleh.
>
> Evan. What to say. The entire first few minutes he skated around
from jump to jump (Ellen used the word "simple" quite a few times in
her notes in the post that Jun referenced). He did a few little extra
things along the way, nothing much, no musical expression (thumping
your chest ain't it). Then the big footwork at the end, which is
exciting (despite the flailing arms), but sheesh, how come the rest of
the program was so forgettable and boring (unless you think jumps are
THE THING, and they weren't great in this program). I don't get the
high choreography and interpretation marks unless they're specifically
for the ending footwork. The rest of the program doesn't have any. I
think Evan is better than this. He is an excellent skater, has great
line and needs to push himself to do better.
>
> Those with icenetwork should also watch Scott Smith's free skate;
he skated well and the program was exciting (and Scott was really
excited about skating so well <g>). Oh, and NBC is stupid for not
showing him.
>
> Cleo, always opinionated
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Stinger2007@... wrote:
>
Have skaters turned in their offical acceptance/refusals?
>
> In pairs Dube/Davison have also opted out of 4 Continents and Craig
Buntin is injured so Duhamel/Buntin aren't going either. I "think"
Craig Buntin is still hoping to make it to worlds. Canada's 4th and 5th
place pairs are both ineligible due to age limits so Miller/Moram, who
finished 6th at Canadians, get to go as well as the 7th place couple
Brodeur/Mattatall.

>
> David Forberg
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "Patti Cassalia" <pcassalia@...>
wrote:
>
> >>>>I was thinking, what could possess Johnny NOT to be rude?
> Why wouldn't Johnny be rude about Evan? After all Evan is "nothing
> special" as a human being. Why would Johnny care if he were rude
to
> someone so beneath him and unworthy of his basic consideration?
Its
> not like Johnny knows Evan, just dismisses him as a human being.
> What is rude when you don't consider the person you are speaking
> about as a unique person?<<<
>
>
> Seriously????
Yep. According to Johnny's pre-interview on Sundy night. He stated
that he wasn't friends with Evan, wouldn't be friends with Evan
because as a person he was "nothing special." He admitted he didn't
know anything about him, just that he wasn't anything special.
That pushed my button over the limit with Mr. Weir. He can be
friends and not be friends with anyone he likes, that is his right.
For me, he crosses the line when he labels someone, not someone's
skating or talent or sense of style (which could all be valid, if
clearly stated, criticisms) but the PERSON, as nothing special. That
for me goes beyond just playing the skating worlds'...what were
Johnny's words...b*tch. If that is how Johnny really feels about
Evan, then why not say nasty things about him. He isn't really a
whole person, just some faceless being.

Don't get me wrong, part of me feels sorry for Johnny and this
persona he has built. The glint in Costas' eye when remarking that
the "Truth Booth' should be interesting since you never know what
Johnny will say and that embarrassing post-SP couch thing with Joyce
mock ducking to evade their barbs. For NBC's moronic producer it was
clearly more about what would come out of Johnny's mouth then what
he would create on the ice. While that kind of pesona let's you say
a lot of crass things and hide behind the image, I have also seen it
wear at people who don't always want to be the "b*tch" and
occationally would like to be seen for the work they have done and
the art they have created.

>

Does anyone know as to the extent of Craig Buntin's injury?
Ms. Duhamel is also in the record books as the first, with her previous
partner
to land side by side triple lutz's in a competition. This team has only been
together
7 or 8 months.
Ryk


On 31/01/2008, Fred Goss <fgoss@...> wrote:
>
>   In the K&C at Cdns, Ms Duhamel went on about how going to Worlds
> would be the greatest thing that has happened in her career...I think if
> Buntin can manage it at all, they will go.
>
> Fred
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stinger2007@... <Stinger2007%40comcast.net>
> To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com <SkateFans%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:48 PM
> Subject: [SkateFans] Weir opts out of 4 Continents
>
> Considering that Johnny has never gone to this event I guess it isn't a
> surprise. I wonder if Evan will go? Jeremy Abbott will go in place of Weir
> and remember he won the bronze medal at 4C's last year. I hope Johnny can
> avoid his annual meltdown at worlds like we've seen for the last 3 years not
> to mention Olympics as well. No wonder the USFSA favors Evan, I mean, with
> Johnny's track record who can blame them.
>
> In pairs Dube/Davison have also opted out of 4 Continents and Craig Buntin
> is injured so Duhamel/Buntin aren't going either. I "think" Craig Buntin is
> still hoping to make it to worlds. Canada's 4th and 5th place pairs are both
> ineligible due to age limits so Miller/Moram, who finished 6th at Canadians,
> get to go as well as the 7th place couple Brodeur/Mattatall.
>
> David Forberg
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.17/1253 - Release Date: 1/31/08
> 9:09 AM
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Off topic but refering to the earlier posts of a comparison of him to
Christopher Bowman today is what would have been Marion Lanza's 87
birthday.
Turner Classic Movies is showcasing his movies.

Meagan Leigh

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "iaustin_28" <Austin_I@...> wrote:
>
> Maxim Staviski was sentenced today.  Staviski was given a suspended 2-
> 1/2 year jail sentence.  He was also stripped of his driving license
> for four years and ordered to pay 283,030 levs (US$214,400).
>
> His victims' families are planning to appeal the sentence.  They
> believe strongly that he should do jail time, and had previously
asked
> the court for compensation of about 2 million levs to pay for life-
long
> healthcare for the young woman who was in a coma and continue to have
> serious medical issues.
>
> http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSL3082645120080130?
> pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
>
> Ingrid
>
He got off easy, most European countries are very intolernt of drunk
driving never mind an accident with fatalities and injuries.

Meagan Leigh

In the K&C at Cdns, Ms Duhamel went on about how going to Worlds
would be the greatest thing that has happened in her career...I think if
Buntin can manage it at all, they will go.

Fred
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Stinger2007@...
   To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 12:48 PM
   Subject: [SkateFans] Weir opts out of 4 Continents


   Considering that Johnny has never gone to this event I guess it isn't a
surprise. I wonder if Evan will go? Jeremy Abbott will go in place of Weir and
remember he won the bronze medal at 4C's last year. I hope Johnny can avoid his
annual meltdown at worlds like we've seen for the last 3 years not to mention
Olympics as well. No wonder the USFSA favors Evan, I mean, with Johnny's track
record who can blame them.

   In pairs Dube/Davison have also opted out of 4 Continents and Craig Buntin is
injured so Duhamel/Buntin aren't going either. I "think" Craig Buntin is still
hoping to make it to worlds. Canada's 4th and 5th place pairs are both
ineligible due to age limits so Miller/Moram, who finished 6th at Canadians, get
to go as well as the 7th place couple Brodeur/Mattatall.

   David Forberg

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


   No virus found in this incoming message.
   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
   Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.17/1253 - Release Date: 1/31/08 9:09
AM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jan 31, 2008, at 10:17 AM, Liam wrote:
>
>   Age limits are not to 'protect' young girls from being abused.
> Puh-leaze.  IMO it is strictly due to PR.  You want your champions
> to be marketable.  Pre-pubescent four-feet somethings are not
> marketable.  It makes adults feel icky (especially adult men) to
> watch little pre-pubes hopping around in skimpy outfits.  I think
> gymnastics suffered even more (remember that awful team from 1992?)
> so they upped the age limits.
>

Yes, I think that is the main factor as well.

You can have a Little League competition, which may in fact be more
difficult technically than the senior level, but then you make sure
everyone keeps in mind that you are watching kids.

When you are pitching young women in children's bodies as the "stars"
of the sport, and perhaps asking them to portray themselves as
adults, you do get the "icky" feeling.

Tennis and other sports have instituted age limits for a reason.  One
or two young competitors can be factored into a sport at its top
levels, but when the system starts getting overwhelmed with young
competitors, age limits are often added. The NBA now requires that
players be at least 19 years old and one year removed from high
school after it started getting too many players coming in right
after high school.

Suzanne

Considering that Johnny has never gone to this event I guess it isn't a
surprise. I wonder if Evan will go? Jeremy Abbott will go in place of Weir and
remember he won the bronze medal at 4C's last year. I hope Johnny can avoid his
annual meltdown at worlds like we've seen for the last 3 years not to mention
Olympics as well. No wonder the USFSA favors Evan, I mean, with Johnny's track
record who can blame them.

In pairs Dube/Davison have also opted out of 4 Continents and Craig Buntin is
injured so Duhamel/Buntin aren't going either. I "think" Craig Buntin is still
hoping to make it to worlds. Canada's 4th and 5th place pairs are both
ineligible due to age limits so Miller/Moram, who finished 6th at Canadians, get
to go as well as the 7th place couple Brodeur/Mattatall.


David Forberg

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know.  I kind of liked growing up with Michelle Kwan (we're
close in age), and I have enjoyed watching other young skaters grow
up since I've been an adult (Sarah Hughes, Bebe Liang, Johnny Weir--
remember when he won Jr Worlds at 14?).  And TV ratings went up when
Michelle, 17, and, Tara, 15, had their big rivalry.  I seem to
remember that a lot of the objections to Tara weren't that she was
14 when she won Worlds and Nats, but that she *looked* 10.
Appearance has a lot to do with a sport like skating and it seems to
me that the appearance of "little girls" is what upsets people.
Ashley Wagner is only a few months older than Rachel Flatt, but take
a look at her body--she looks like she's finished growing and has
the body she'll have as an adult.  I finished growing at 13 and my
body hasn't changed much since then--I can still fit into the dress
and shoes I wore at my Bat Mitzvah! (not that I would--yikes!)

I'm all in favor of protecting kids, but it seems like what the ISU
really wants to do is make the sport *appear* to be something that
it isn't--i.e. fair judging, mature skaters winning, objectively
scored...etc.


--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "slainson@..." <slainson@...>
wrote:
>
> Yes, quite a few sports have age restrictions. And if they don't
have age
> restrictions, some of them have education restrictions -- you have
to have
> finished high school or even one or more years of college.
>
> A sport where the top competitors are 12-15 is a kid's sport. And
watching
> kids compete has never been a big television commercial draw. It
can get
> kind of creepy, even, to be that invested in how children do in a
sport.
>
> Suzanne
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: mirabrett ejoiner@...
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:00:13 -0000
> To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SkateFans] Re: age limits
>
> Many elite sports have instituted age limits because the carnage
from
> burn-out and over-training had become an embarrassment to their
> sport.  When Olympic gold medalists are in drunken car accidents
> before they turn 20, or have to walk their leg of the Olympic
relay
> four years later because they can't run, figure skating is not
> getting a PR boost.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and
application
> hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting
>

> Funny its just the opposite with me. Everyone I've talked to
seems to think its crazy that a sport like figure skating has an age
limit.

   Age limits are not to 'protect' young girls from being abused.
Puh-leaze.  IMO it is strictly due to PR.  You want your champions
to be marketable.  Pre-pubescent four-feet somethings are not
marketable.  It makes adults feel icky (especially adult men) to
watch little pre-pubes hopping around in skimpy outfits.  I think
gymnastics suffered even more (remember that awful team from 1992?)
so they upped the age limits.

   It's good and it's bad.  Bad that a Nagasu can't compete with the
world's best and giving the Czisnys and Liangs an opportunity.  But
it's probably better in the long run to have a marketable champion
who is adult(ish) and not a 70 pound Zhang.

   I hate seeing the Czisnys, Liangs, and Miessners fall all over
themselves competion after competetion and getting the assignments,
but I see no other choice, if the sport is going to continue to hold
on to or acquire new fans.

--Liam

"Kathy Godfrey" <Kathy.Godfrey@...> writes:

> Sat  Feb  2   US Nationals, pt 1                     CN8 9:30-11:30 p.m. EST
>               [St. Paul, MN, 1/20-27/08][Jr ladies and Jr dance]

This was previously announced as being the "U.S. Junior
Championships": the juvenile/intermediate event that took place in
Cleveland in December, not the junior-level competition from nationals
in St. Paul.  OTOH, the USFSA press release here implies it really is
the junior-level competition, so who knows?

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=40334

-Sandra the cynic

Taken from Yahoo! TV for the week of Sat. 2/2//08 through Fri. 2/8/08
All times Eastern; please doublecheck your local listings.

And always bear in mind that broadcast network afternoon
skating is often subject to the vagaries of delays due
to other live coverage, or being rescheduled, shortened,
or even completely preempted by your local affiliate,
and that ESPN evening coverage may have a delayed start
if preceded by a live event.

Thu  Jan  31  "The Cutting Edge" [movie; Hough & Ladret appear] Encore-Love
2:30-4:30 p.m. EST
Fri  Feb  1   "Made" w/ "instant" skater Zach Mendez and O. Baiul MTV 6-7
a.m. EST
               [repeat from 10/26/05]
Fri  Feb  1   "Today" w/ Sale and Pelletier               NBC 7-11 a.m. EST
Fri  Feb. 1   Bud Greenspan's Nagano Olympic documentary (rep)
ShowtimeExtreme 9:20-11:30 a.m.
               [includes Lu Chen]
Fri  Feb  1   Wynonna Tribute on Ice                        Style 5-7 p.m.
EST
               [repeat from NBC 12/23/07][Chicago, IL, 11/20/07]
Sat  Feb  2   "This Is Daniel Cook" w/ K. Browning   Disney 6:25-6:30 a.m.
EST
               [repeat from 6/7/06]
Sat  Feb. 2   Bud Greenspan's Nagano Olympic documentary (rep)
ShowtimeExtreme 5:05-7:05 a.m.
               [includes Lu Chen]
Sat  Feb  2   2008 US Nationals [St. Paul, MN, 1/20-27/08]  NBC 4-6 p.m. EST

               [gala]
Sat  Feb  2   US Nationals, pt 1                     CN8 9:30-11:30 p.m. EST
               [St. Paul, MN, 1/20-27/08][Jr ladies and Jr dance]
Sun  Feb  3   "Go Figure" (TV movie re: skater; Yamaguchi cameo) Disney
noon-2 p.m. EST
               (repeat from 6/10/05)
Sun  Feb  3   Fashion on Ice                                Style 10
a.m.-noon EST
               [repeat from NBC 1/20/08][Atlantic City, NJ, 11/17/07]
Sun  Feb  3  "The Cutting Edge" [movie; Hough & Ladret appear] WAM! 10:15
a.m.-12:35 p.m. EST
Sun  Feb  3   "Go Figure" (TV movie re: skater; Yamaguchi cameo) Disney
noon-2 p.m. EST
               (repeat from 6/10/05)
Sun  Feb  3   Grand Prix Final                           ESPN2 4:30-7 p.m.
EST
               [Torino, ITA, 12/13-16/07] [edited repeat from 12/23/07]
Sun  Feb  3  "The Cutting Edge" [movie; Hough & Ladret appear] WAM! 6-8 p.m.
EST
Sun  Feb  3   2008 Europeans [Zagreb, CRO, 1/21-27/08]   ESPN 7-10 p.m. EST
               [rescheduled from 4:30-7:30 p.m.]
Tue  Feb. 5   Bud Greenspan's Nagano Olympic documentary (rep)
ShowtimeExtreme 6-8 a.m.
               [includes Lu Chen]
Tue  Feb. 5   Understanding: Ice (w/ K. Yamaguchi)        DiscoveryScience
8-9 a.m. EST
Tue  Feb. 5   Bud Greenspan's Nagano Olympic documentary (rep)
ShowtimeExtreme 1:15-3:15 p.m.
Wed  Feb. 6   Bud Greenspan's Nagano Olympic documentary (rep)
ShowtimeExtreme 5:30-7:30 a.m.
Fri  Feb  8   "One in a Million" (S. Henie movie)         FoxMovieChannel
6-8 a.m. EST
           [Sonja demonstrates figures as well as free skating]
Fri  Feb  8   "You Are What You Eat" episode 8      BBC America 4:30-5 p.m.
EST
               ["a former ice skating champion who has let her weight
balloon"]
               [repeat from 10/15/07]
Fri  Feb  8   Fashion on Ice                                Style 5-7 p.m.
EST
               [repeat from NBC 1/20/08][Atlantic City, NJ, 11/17/07]
Sat  Feb  9   Skating & Gymnastics Spectacular              NBC 2:30-4:30p.m.
EST
               [Oklahoma City, OK, 10/14/07]  [rescheduled from 1/6/08]
Sat  Feb  9   US Nationals, pt 1                     CN8 4:30-6:30 p.m. EST
               [St. Paul, MN, 1/20-27/08][Jr ladies and Jr dance][repeat from
2/2/08]
Sun  Feb  10  The Music of Seal on Ice                      Style 10
a.m.-noon EST
               [Washington, DC, 12/18/07][repeat from NBC 1/1/08]

>>Kathy Godfrey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: <trudee44081@...>
To: <SkateFans@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [SkateFans] Why doesn't Weir compete for


> Very good point. And many "Westerners" have never gotten over how the
> collapse of the Soviet Union resulted in what was once a single country
> getting an opportunity to place a large number of its judges on a
> single panel, because so many now represent different countries. Not to
> mention the early years in which former Soviet coaches fled to the West
> to take plum coaching jobs and the best ex-Soviet skaters were offered
> incentives to follow them over and train.

Given that most of those coaches were dance coaches (Shpilbond, Tarasove,
Linichuk, Dubova etc.) I don't think North American skating fans can
complain too much.  As a result of coaching from these former Russians,
American and Canadian ice dancers are enjoying more international sucess
than their predecesors.  There wasn't an upswing in singles because North
America already had top notch singles coaches -- Frank Carroll, Carlo Fassi
et al.  Pair coaches seem to have chosen not to emigrate or to relocate only
temporarily.

Marg

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "azcalder" <azcalder@...> wrote:
>
> The January 31, edition of the Rachael Ray Show will be done entirely
> on ice.  Emily Hughes is one of the guests. The promo looks like
> she'll be skating and cooking.  Anne
At the same time!? I'm impressed :-)

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Currie" <ncurrie40@...> wrote:
>
> --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "amyp3" <amyp3@> wrote:
>
> >
> > So Nagasu/Zhang will be 16 in 2010. But I guess, according to
these
> seers, that Mao and YuNa would join Kimmie in being "past their
prime"
> by that time. *eyes*
> >
> > Although I've been a fan of young skaters in the past, I also
enjoy
> seeing them mature into young *women* and especially watching the
kids
> in a mix with other "older" female skaters. So you won't see me
> rending my garments anymore because poor this-or-that can't go to
> Worlds. I do NOT want to see a field dominated by 14-16 year-olds.
And
> it's starting to feel that way.
> > AmyP
>
> My gut intinct here is that the european judges who now dominate
the
> panals more than used to because of the expansion of the seats at
the
> table, are more determined than ever to see a non-American win the
> next Olympics.
>
> They've got help, as Asada and Yu-na are both ultimately
talented.

Geez Ben, now you expand your pan-european conspiracy theory to all
the other disciplines not just ice dance?? (**more eyes**)
>
> None of the flock of ineligibles showed the ability at present to
> challenge them; and even if you sorta extrapolate Nagasu or Zhang
or
> Flatt ahead two years in technical growth (jumping, speed) .... it
is
> by no means clear that the one who eventually emerges at the
front,
> will be competiting for the Bronze and maybe the silver.
>
> OTOH hand, at this precise moment in the 1992 cycle, Ito was
> unbeatable, Trenary could only win due to figures, and few
imagined
> that Harding and Yamaguchi would easily defeat Ito in 12 monsth
time.
>
> The landscape of 1991 was totally different from 1990.
>
> And surprisingly so.
>
> Interestingly, Tonya Harding who had asthma to be sure, was 10th
in
> the FS at the 1990 Nationals, but won in 1991 and was second at
the
> 1991 worlds ....
>
> Gosh Tonya was 19 in 1990 and 20 in 1991 ....
>
> all washed up at 19 ... and back in the hunt at 20 .....
>
> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
>
> Ben Currie\
I can give you another example of how much things can change in just
2 years timeframe, so anybody envisioning any type of outcome
especially in ladies cannot be taken seriously....
So here it is and is closer in time that the Ito / Yamaguchi
example, in 2002 at 4CC the winner and second were 2 ladies who
missed to get on their Olympic teams, Jenny Kirk won there, former
Junior World Champ. and second was someone called Shizuka Arakawa.
In just 2 more years We know what happened...Jenny ended up going
down in history with whatever she achieved up to that moment and
Shizuka won Worlds then Olympics. That much about bold predictions!!!

Joseph

Sorry for the delayed reply, but I'm on vacation and not reading the
list regularly.

When I read this post, however, even if late, I just had to come out
of lurk to say that I don't get the frequent claim here that CoP is
more baffling than the 6.0 system for the average skate fan.  I've
been watching skating for years, and I loathed the 6.0 system.
Loathed it.  Talk about being baffled.  About the only good thing I
have to say about 6.0 was the sense of excitement as you waited for
the marks to come up.  For those of us who aren't experts, the marks
didn't make much sense, but the way they were presented created a
feeling of suspense and excitment nevertheless.  But, well, really,
that isn't saying much.  CoP undoubtedly has its problems, but
baffling the ordinary fan isn't one of them.

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Susan <smc413@...> wrote:
>
> bagelpuss wrote:
>
> >Did anyone else notice the way that NBC listed the rankings for
the
> >skaters? Instead of showing their acutal scores, they showed how
many
> >points away each skater was from the one on top. ...  I feel like
it's actually
> >changing the nature of skating as a sport.
> >
> .
> I'd hardly lay this at NBC's doorstep.  It's ISU and the COP that
> changed the nature of the sport.  NBC is just presenting the
results of
> the present scoring system is a logical way.
>
> > Skating has always been
> >about the rankings, but NBC is making it look like it's all about
the
> >points.
> >
> .
>  Still, not NBC's fault.  Skating stopped being about rankings
when they
> adopted COP.  And yes, it's now all about the points.
>
> I do think, though, that this method is contributing to the
general
> bafflement of people over who skated better than whom in the free
skate
> and whether the results made sense.  While they made the math
easier in
> one way, you now have to keep your own score sheet to figure out
who was
> 1, 2 or 3 in the free skate.  Didn't we decide long ago that the
ISU
> thinks viewer bafflement is a good thing, because it leaves them
less
> likely to argue with results if they do not understand the scoring?
>
> Susan McC
>

The January 31, edition of the Rachael Ray Show will be done entirely
on ice.  Emily Hughes is one of the guests. The promo looks like
she'll be skating and cooking.  Anne

>>>>I was thinking, what could possess Johnny NOT to be rude?
Why wouldn't Johnny be rude about Evan? After all Evan is "nothing
special" as a human being. Why would Johnny care if he were rude to
someone so beneath him and unworthy of his basic consideration? Its
not like Johnny knows Evan, just dismisses him as a human being.
What is rude when you don't consider the person you are speaking
about as a unique person?<<<


Seriously????

It seems significant also that he skated last. That's a long time to
get a little cold, then do the quad, which had to have his heart
racing. Natural to be a bit out of gas at the end though. The look on
his face when he finished though. He was thrilled by his skate and
that matters.

Sally

--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, "Fiddler42" <Fiddler42@...> wrote:
>
> It is possible that with the "stress" of confronting the quad and
trying to skate a clean program -- he just didn't have "enough left"
to engage other considerations at the time.
>
> Everybody has a certain capacity for how much "stress" they can
negotiate at one time.  The freeskate begins with they physical stress
of having to endure from the beginning to the end of the program, no
matter what happens in between.  Johnny was obviously concentrating
very hard in order to get that "form" in his jumps, which everyone so
admires.  He might be visualizing the jump completely before going
into it.
>
> Maybe it's a question of how many things he can "pull off" at once
-- without "blowing something else."
>
> He didn't seem terribly upset by his basically "tied" silver medal,
at the end of the day.
>
> Linda
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Ben Currie
>   To: SkateFans@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:24 PM
>   Subject: [SkateFans] The Wand Choses the Wizard
>
>
>   --- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, trishsensei@ wrote:
>
>   > I do think that overall Weir had the better skate, but he also had
>   the benefit of skating after Lysacek. Another double-toe and it would
>   have been his. He needs to work the system better. All the talent and
>   grace in the world won't win squat if you don't have the brain
engaged.
>   >
>   > Trish
>
>   well, I don't know. I think youre right, he skated better. that's a
>   traditional platform from which to win. I can't think of a better
>   criteria for awarding the medals. <GG>
>
>   This was his smartest COP skate. By a long shot. So, this is probably
>   the best he can do in this department.
>
>   I like how close that Quad was to being landed on a one-foot flowing
>   back edge ... all things considered, I'd focus on that landing,
and not
>   on the hope of the all-powerful magic add-on double toe.
>
>   Ben
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Cleo,
I think you are right on. In person, Abbott's and Overett's LPs were
just as you describe. I am not a natural Abbott fan, but I was
engrossed (kind of like I'm not a natural Rachel Flatt fan, but fell
right into hers). And I thought Overett had so much quality (despite
the jumps) and he reminded me of Van Der Perren (not just because of
the piraty-sword-fighting thing) because his personae was so strong
that I could see him being SO popular all over the world if he had the
technical ability.

Per another part of this thread, Johnny attempted 3 quads in the
warm-up, if I recall correctly. His first was right after Evan had
landed a gorgeous 4t-3t. I think he 2-footed 2 of them and fell on one
right before the warm-up was over. That could have effected his speed
going into it in the program. But I don't remember the attempts as
very fast and confident either.

In person, I think both Weir and Lysecek have presence, but I thought
Johnny created more of a mood with his piece. I'm not in love with
this LP but it was definitely the best he's skated it all season, imo.

I don't really know what to say about Evan's LP. It felt shaky to me
throughout, even though the person behind me (a Weir fan) said 1/2 way
through, "He's really on." I remember thinking...no he isn't. Shrug.

SallyH



--- In SkateFans@yahoogroups.com, Cleo <mcleomarie@...> wrote:
>
> I just rewatched four mens' free skates from Sunday to try to
determine what it was about each that I found interesting, not
interesting and so on.
>
>   First, the programs of Jeremy Abbott and Braden Overett were
compelling in different, yet similar ways.  Both had a multitude of
connecting moves that clearly interpreted and enhanced the music; both
programs could be watched numerous times with the viewer finding more
things to notice and enjoy each time.  The pacing in both programs
varied - between slow and expressive, fast and more intense (and
expressive), back and forth.  Jeremy's skating, both in the SP and LP,
felt huge and expansive, really stepping out, and very exciting.  I'd
be curious what those who saw him in person thought.  Braden is a
master of footwork and of using it to express the music.  Playing to
his strength, he frequently begins his programs with footwork, and
because he is so good at it, it immediately grabs the audience.  His
programs (which he choreographs) are excellent at mixing up the
elements - jumps, footwork and spins - and how he gets from one to
another is interesting.  If you subscribe
>  to icenetwork, be sure to watch both his SP and LP (from Nationals
and from MW Sectionals - the SP is a bit different at Sectionals).
>
>   Johnny's skate was the most pure and clean.  I find that he comes
across better in person - he has quite a presence - moreso than on TV.
  Yet I did find this LP (and his SP) to be fairly unmemorable, I've
watched it a few times to see what the big deal is and I just don't
get it.  Beautiful skating, but no point of view; it felt like he
could have been skating to about anything.  Maybe I needed to see it
in person.  But there just didn't seem to be a lot going on.  And the
music... bleh.
>
>   Evan.  What to say.  The entire first few minutes he skated around
from jump to jump (Ellen used the word "simple" quite a few times in
her notes in the post that Jun referenced).  He did a few little extra
things along the way, nothing much, no musical expression (thumping
your chest ain't it).  Then the big footwork at the end, which is
exciting (despite the flailing arms), but sheesh, how come the rest of
the program was so forgettable and boring (unless you think jumps are
THE THING, and they weren't great in this program).  I don't get the
high choreography and interpretation marks unless they're specifically
for the ending footwork.  The rest of the program doesn't have any.  I
think Evan is better than this.  He is an excellent skater, has great
line and needs to push himself to do better.
>
>   Those with icenetwork should also watch Scott Smith's free skate;
he skated well and the program was exciting (and Scott was really
excited about skating so well <g>).  Oh, and NBC is stupid for not
showing him.
>
>   Cleo, always opinionated
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Liz wrote:

>>>Part of the reason that age restrictions were put into place is
because of the potential for abuse. Children were being abused in an
effort to rush them up to seniors. Anyone who says it wasn't
happening is being wilfully blind. Either that or they've never
spent any time at skating training centres.>>>



Agreed, but I don't remember seeing any rationale for why the age limit
doesn't apply to Nats or GP comps.  The inconsistency is glaring, but par
for the course for those in charge of skating, naturally.



don





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]