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#33 From: "Jim Burke" <skjf@...>
Date: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:14 am
Subject: Re: Sparring in Karate mondugal
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Hey guys,

I'll throw my hat in the proverbial ring on the topic of point sparring.

The way I see it, in point sparring, because there are no "damaging" and or fatal consequences involved, it encourages many to attempt or execute un-realistic / combat ineffective techniques. I feel strongly that this lack of consequence contributes to a false sense of security for the point fighter. One that could put them in harms way if faced with an individual outside of or occasionally inside the dojo, that excels in delivering consequences. For that reason alone I personally wouldn't recommend it.

I also feel that training in a martial way demands the same common sense and respect that training with a weapon of lethal potential does. One does not "play" with it. Ikken hissatsu does not translate "Tag, I got you first". I think Funakoshi Sensei had good reason for not allowing tournament "sport" sparring. It waters down the martial aspect of karate's roots, thus removing any respect for the lethality of a fighting system originally designed to be just that.

I feel the sparring drills performed during Funakoshi's time combined with kata, while researching their bunkai and oyo are more effective in training one to "go to work" than point sparring could ever hope to be.

My two cents...

Oss.!!

----- Original Message -----

From: shotorochester

To: ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 4:29 PM

Subject: [ShotoJukuKai] Sparring in Karate

Since the forum has been quiet I'll post a contraversal question. Karate has the three k's: Kihon, Kata, and Kumite What should be the role of "point" or "tournament" sparring in Karate? Is it a valid form of Kumite practice or is it a waste of time? If Kumite should reflect actual situations shouldn't you spend more of your valuable training time on waza, ippon kumite, street defense, etc.? Just wondering what people think about this. Rick P.

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#32 From: "Dan Smiley" <dansmiley@...>
Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:59 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Sparring in Karate dansmiley
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OSS!!!

More than likely you have many types of drills to enhance your fighting skills, Kihon, Kihon Ippon Kumite, Jiyu Ippon Kumite, Gaeshi Kumite, Jiyu Kumite, jujitsu waza, etc. You wouldn’t do only one kumite drill, would you?

It seems to me that Tournament sparring is just one more “drill” to enhance the ability of a karateka to perform kumite. It gives an opportunity to see a different opponent and one that you do not know their style before you spar them. It allow one to work on their distance, timing, speed, and accuracy against another opponent—often of a high skill level.

Tournament sparring also begins to recreate some of the fear, pressure, and adrenaline that would flow in a real self-defense situation, so you can begin to learn to mange that.

I believe that tournament sparring is a valuable training adjunct for the martial artist.

OSS!!

-----Original Message-----
From: ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of shotojuku2002
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:04 PM
To: ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ShotoJukuKai] Re: Sparring in Karate

Hey Rick:

Kumite value has been controversial since Funakoshi's time, that's
why they waited 6 months after he died to hold the very first
tournament. He (Funakoshi) believed that tournaments would do little
to promote karate and perhaps even harm it. Just look at some of the
pretend competitions where you see multi-colored gi's, kata being
done to music, and board breaking. It's nealy as bad as professional
wrestling. I think he was right!

However, if you examine the legitimate tournaments featuring all
white gi, Okinawan/Japanese kata (NO MUSIC)they maintain a focus on
strong viable technique and not acrobatics.

To answer your question, one will find a greater value of their
training time found in the Dojo - seeking perfection of character
rather than seeking a six-foot tall trophy made from plastic.

OSS!!!

--- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "shotorochester"
<shotorochester@y...> wrote:
>
> Since the forum has been quiet I'll post a contraversal question.
>
> Karate has the three k's: Kihon, Kata, and Kumite
>
> What should be the role of "point" or "tournament" sparring in
Karate?
> Is it a valid form of Kumite practice or is it a waste of time? If
> Kumite should reflect actual situations shouldn't you spend more of
> your valuable training time on waza, ippon kumite, street defense,
> etc.?
>
> Just wondering what people think about this.
>
>
> Rick P.

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#31 From: mauricio quesada <morris09_cr@...>
Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:14 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sparring in Karate morris09_cr
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Hi...I totally agree with you on the fact that
unfortunatly there has been a little bit of a
misunderstanding with the true word of KARATE and in a
way with KUMITE.
It is so true that Funakoshi Sensei was completly
against it and now we know why. I am sure he is toss
and turning (if I can use this term) in his grave
after seeing what some people have done with the
KARATE.
Now, anybody can be a "WORLD CHAMPION" a 10th Degree
Black Belt and not only in one style, I know guys who
claims to have 3 or 4 black belts in different styles
and they are in their early 30's!!!...
Anyhow, coming back to the original question posted
earlier, I dont really think that the competition
Kumite is like a street fight. In fact, to me it is
not even close to a real street fight. That you can
use some of the techniques and stuff, yes, but
remember that in a street fight, everything
counts...there are no referees saying, not a good
technique, too far from target, not enough contact,
etc. On a Street Fight, there may be glasses, bottles,
chairs, sticks, rocks, you name it, anything at the
reach of hand can be used to attack or for defense.
I think that I am training Karate for a new healthy,
espiritual and mentally way of living. Not really to
go out to a bar and pick up fights to see if my kicks
or punches are strong enough or need more form. Dont
get me wrong, but I think that the best way to use
Karate is to stay away from trouble, use it only when
you have to and if it is your last resourse, but be
prepare that the other person may have a weapon or
something that you wont stop with a Soto-uke or a
gedan-barai.
I have personally seen a Black Belt on a Street Fight,
getting his rear kicked right before launching his
first Mawashi-Geri, when I saw that, I thought, well,
why a Mawashi, I would have tried first a mae-geri to
the groin and end of the discussion. My oponnent would
be on the floor right now gasping for air, but this
guy wanted to look pretty and perhaps knock his
oponent down with a kick to the face and all he got
was a good and embarassing beaten.
Do Kumite, do the drills, the sparring, it is very
important, practice your kihon and Kata, but remember
as Okasaki Sensei says, first spirit, then technique.
Go to Tournaments, compete but dont think that the
idea  is to come home with a piece of wood or plastic
(trophy), but to gain experience!!!
Keep on Training, never stop, do the repetitions, they
can save your life, but do consider that in a street
fight, the one that survives is not the one who fought
a nice, pretty and clean fight, it is the one who
reacts first and throws his oponent to the ground and
leaves him almost knocked out!!!
Sorry for my long speech here, but again this is my
personnal opinion. Just wanted to share some thoughts
and real situations with you.

A big hello from the beautiful country of Costa
Rica!!!

OSS!!!

PURA VIDA!!!

MAURICIO Q.


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#30 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:04 am
Subject: Re: Sparring in Karate shotojuku2002
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Hey Rick:

Kumite value has been controversial since Funakoshi's time, that's
why they waited 6 months after he died to hold the very first
tournament.  He (Funakoshi) believed that tournaments would do little
to promote karate and perhaps even harm it.  Just look at some of the
pretend competitions where you see multi-colored gi's, kata being
done to music, and board breaking. It's nealy as bad as professional
wrestling. I think he was right!

However, if you examine the legitimate tournaments featuring all
white gi, Okinawan/Japanese kata (NO MUSIC)they maintain a focus on
strong viable technique and not acrobatics.

To answer your question, one will find a greater value of their
training time found in the Dojo - seeking perfection of character
rather than seeking a six-foot tall trophy made from plastic.

OSS!!!

--- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "shotorochester"
<shotorochester@y...> wrote:
>
> Since the forum has been quiet I'll post a contraversal question.
>
> Karate has the three k's: Kihon, Kata, and Kumite
>
> What should be the role of "point" or "tournament" sparring in
Karate?
> Is it a valid form of Kumite practice or is it a waste of time? If
> Kumite should reflect actual situations shouldn't you spend more of
> your valuable training time on waza, ippon kumite, street defense,
> etc.?
>
> Just wondering what people think about this.
>
>
> Rick P.

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#29 From: "shotorochester" <shotorochester@...>
Date: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:29 pm
Subject: Sparring in Karate shotorochester
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Since the forum has been quiet I'll post a contraversal question.

Karate has the three k's: Kihon, Kata, and Kumite

What should be the role of "point" or "tournament" sparring in Karate?
Is it a valid form of Kumite practice or is it a waste of time? If
Kumite should reflect actual situations shouldn't you spend more of
your valuable training time on waza, ippon kumite, street defense,
etc.?

Just wondering what people think about this.


Rick P.

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#28 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:13 pm
Subject: SKJF Fall Seminar shotojuku2002
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For those who haven't heard the latest, the SKJF Fall Seminar will be
held on November 18-20 in Rochester, NY.  For registration information
go to www.SKJF.com and click on the appropriate link. OSS!!

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#27 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:11 pm
Subject: Welcome! shotojuku2002
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Welcome to the group Sensei Smiley - SKJF California, OSS!!

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#26 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:37 am
Subject: Hello New Members! shotojuku2002
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Don't be shy!  Welcome to one and all - OSS!!

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#25 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:32 pm
Subject: Where are your branches? shotojuku2002
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Ok, let's move on to another topic.  At the base of the Shotokan tree
we find Azato & Itosu serving as its roots. The trunk of the tree is
of course Funakoshi.  But as the tree has grown several distinct
branches have spouted forth.  So, what branch(es) does your Shotokan
come from?  OSS!!

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#24 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 9:51 am
Subject: Re: OSS! Ohaio Gozaimasu O-Sensei Fey! shotojuku2002
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Hello Rick - OSS!!

Welcome to the group!  It has been quite some time since our paths
crossed, however I hope and trust that they may again sooner than
later.  Good luck with your new career goals and stay dry over there.
OSS!!

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#23 From: "Rick" <b_hindblue_iz@...>
Date: Thu Sep 8, 2005 1:47 am
Subject: OSS! Ohaio Gozaimasu O-Sensei Fey! b_hindblue_iz
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Hello From the East Coast!

I see the Organization is alive and thriving under your expert
guidance! I have been away for a long time, but not completely gone! I
am hoping to find the time to train again soon.
It's great to see the forum go online, and be available to the world
comunity instantly! I trust you and all in your family are well and in
good spirits? I am busily completing my State Standards for Fire
Fighter, and will soon afterward add Paramedic to the list. I am
leaving the Space biz for good........
Please extend a warm hello to all those who may remember me, and I
hope to plan a visit in the not too distand future to the Honbu Dojo!

Warmly,
Rick Georg

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#22 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Sun Sep 4, 2005 11:49 am
Subject: Re: Takayuki Mikami Sensei shotojuku2002
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According to information posted on the KU forums and
also on the ISKF website, Mikami got out and has
temporarily established his headquarters in
Mississippi. The ISKF Championship which was to take
place in New Orleans in November has been cancelled.

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#21 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 2:03 am
Subject: Re: Matt says hello ... shotojuku2002
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Hello Sensei:  OSS!!  Welcome to the group!!

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#20 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Sat Sep 3, 2005 2:01 am
Subject: Re: Training Outside of Class shotojuku2002
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Patience - Tenacity - Harmony....OSS!!

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#19 From: "randallmade14" <randallmade14@...>
Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 10:55 pm
Subject: Matt says hello ... randallmade14
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O'Sensei -- Matt Michaelson from Fort Irwin, CA sending regards and
good karma .. trying to join the discussion group // commo check,
over // OSS

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#18 From: "Jim Burke" <skjf@...>
Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 2:01 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Training Outside of Class mondugal
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Let me re-phrase my question. What have any of you found to be effective in in your training that allows you to persue the new, while keep the old polished?

----- Original Message -----

From: shotojuku2002

To: ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:27 AM

Subject: [ShotoJukuKai] Re: Training Outside of Class

For some people, and even some styles, "17 karate and 6 kobudo" kata is more than enough. Even Funakoshi Sensei said "15" was enough. The pursuit of more than 50 karate/kobudo kata will last/take a lifetime, and perhaps a little longer. Time to buy a BIGGER calander. OSS!!

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#17 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Fri Sep 2, 2005 4:27 am
Subject: Re: Training Outside of Class shotojuku2002
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For some people, and even some styles, "17 karate and 6 kobudo" kata
is more than enough.  Even Funakoshi Sensei said "15" was enough.  The
pursuit of more than 50 karate/kobudo kata will last/take a lifetime,
and perhaps a little longer.  Time to buy a BIGGER calander. OSS!!

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#16 From: "shotorochester" <shotorochester@...>
Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 6:32 pm
Subject: Re: Training Outside of Class shotorochester
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Most people can't put in the time they would like to. I train 5
days a week and still can't fit everything in I would like to. Usually
I'll work opposite of whatever we work in class outside of class.


--- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burke" <skjf@t...> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I currently practice seventeen empty hand kata and six weapon, with
many more to come.  I am finding myself becoming dissatisfied with the
amount of time I can dedicate to all of them.  To add to this, I have
a growing need to return to the beginning kata and kihon and explore
them on a deeper level.
> I have several ideas on putting a schedule of sorts together that
would allow me to focus on a particular kata, etc, yet allow me to
keep the "balance" fresh and ready to use.  Before I put anything into
place, I would really like to hear from those who have "gone before
me" and what they have done to create a "balance" in their training
outside of class.
>
> Oss.!!

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#15 From: "Jim Burke" <skjf@...>
Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 3:25 pm
Subject: Training Outside of Class mondugal
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Greetings,

I currently practice seventeen empty hand kata and six weapon, with many more to come. I am finding myself becoming dissatisfied with the amount of time I can dedicate to all of them. To add to this, I have a growing need to return to the beginning kata and kihon and explore them on a deeper level.

I have several ideas on putting a schedule of sorts together that would allow me to focus on a particular kata, etc, yet allow me to keep the "balance" fresh and ready to use. Before I put anything into place, I would really like to hear from those who have "gone before me" and what they have done to create a "balance" in their training outside of class.

Oss.!!

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#14 From: "Brian R. Fey Sr." <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 5:48 am
Subject: Re: Great Idea shotojuku2002
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Welcome to the group Rick, and I'll see you guys in November - OSS!!

shotorochester <shotorochester@...> wrote:

Greetings all from not so sunny Rochester. I thinks that this is a great idea to share info and our thoughts about Shotokan. I hope that this forum brings all the SKJF members a little closer together. I'll make sure to spred the word up here. Good luck. Rick

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

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#13 From: "Brian R. Fey Sr." <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Thu Sep 1, 2005 5:47 am
Subject: Re: New kid on the block!!! shotojuku2002
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Welcome to the group Mauricio - OSS!!

morris09_cr <morris09_cr@...> wrote:

Hey guys, what's up???... I saw this new group of SHotokan Karatekas and I thought of joining in. My name is Mauricio Quesada and I am from the small Central American counrty called COSTA RICA. I have been practicing Shotokan Karate for more than 10 years and I am a Black Belt (SHodan). I made all my examintations with Sensei Takashina. I hope I will have the chance to share some of my small experience in Karate or any other topic related to it. Regards to everybody and if there is any of you coming to Costa Rica, we would be delighted to welcome you at our dojo. Thanks a lot and as we sa here...PURA VIDA!!!...(costarican saying for everything is cool!!!) OSS!!! Mauricio Quesada... Costa Rica

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#12 From: "morris09_cr" <morris09_cr@...>
Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:07 pm
Subject: New kid on the block!!! morris09_cr
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Hey guys, what's up???...
I saw this new group of SHotokan Karatekas and I thought of joining
in. My name is Mauricio Quesada and I am from the small Central
American counrty called COSTA RICA. I have been practicing Shotokan
Karate for more than 10 years and I am a Black Belt (SHodan). I made
all my examintations with Sensei Takashina.
I hope I will have the chance to share some of my small experience in
Karate or any other topic related to it.
Regards to everybody and if there is any of you coming to Costa Rica,
we would be delighted to welcome you at our dojo.
Thanks a lot and as we sa here...PURA VIDA!!!...(costarican saying for
everything is cool!!!)

OSS!!!

Mauricio Quesada...
Costa Rica

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#11 From: "shotorochester" <shotorochester@...>
Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:57 pm
Subject: Great Idea shotorochester
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Greetings all from not so sunny Rochester. I thinks that this is a
great idea to share info and our thoughts about Shotokan. I hope that
this forum brings all the SKJF members a little closer together. I'll
make sure to spred the word up here. Good luck.

Rick

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#10 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:46 am
Subject: Takayuki Mikami Sensei shotojuku2002
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I would like to offer the thoughts and prayers of the entire SKJF to
Mikami Sensei and all of the members of the LKA/ISKF - New Orleans who
may have suffered great losses due to the hurricane.  OSS!!

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#9 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:57 am
Subject: Welcome Elliot shotojuku2002
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Welcome to the group!  Your input is always appreciated. OSS!!

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#8 From: "elliotkleiner" <elliot@...>
Date: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:09 am
Subject: I wish you the best with this new forum elliotkleiner
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Oss SKJF and friends. Thanx to Jim Burke for inviting me to this forum.
As it grows, I will be a willing participant.

"Yolo-Shiku Onegai Shimasu" "Please help me to increase my knowledge"

Best of luck.

Oss

Nidan Sensei Elliot Kleiner
Karate Union of Australia - www.kua.com.au
International Shotokan Karate-Do Alliance - www.iskda.com

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#7 From: "joketsu529" <joketsu529@...>
Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:52 pm
Subject: Re: OSS!! joketsu529
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OSS!  I think that this is a great way to share the Way with other
Karateka.  I look forward to being part of this group.

--- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "joketsu529" <joketsu529@y...>
wrote:
> Ditto!
>
>
> --- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burke" <skjf@t...> wrote:
> > -I for one walk the dojo kun.  At times it is not a graceful
walk
> as
> > the dojo kun also requires practice and training.  I think this
is
> why
> > the words "SEEK" and ENDEVOUR" are paramount to me when
regarding
> the
> > dojo kun.
> >
> > I have also noticed the need to follow it more closely as I
attain
> > higher ranking.  These two things seem to go hand in hand.
> >
> > OSSS.!
> >
> > -- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "shotojuku2002"
> > <shotojuku2002@y...> wrote:
> > > As Chief Instructor of the SKJF I would like to welcome one
and
> all
> > to
> > > this new and hopefully inspiring discussion group.  Let's get
> things
> > > started then....
> > >
> > > Question:  How many out there (Sensei & Students) display,
> teach, and
> > > practice Funakoshi's Dojo Kun?   OSS!!

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#6 From: "joketsu529" <joketsu529@...>
Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: OSS!! joketsu529
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Ditto!


--- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burke" <skjf@t...> wrote:
> -I for one walk the dojo kun.  At times it is not a graceful walk
as
> the dojo kun also requires practice and training.  I think this is
why
> the words "SEEK" and ENDEVOUR" are paramount to me when regarding
the
> dojo kun.
>
> I have also noticed the need to follow it more closely as I attain
> higher ranking.  These two things seem to go hand in hand.
>
> OSSS.!
>
> -- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "shotojuku2002"
> <shotojuku2002@y...> wrote:
> > As Chief Instructor of the SKJF I would like to welcome one and
all
> to
> > this new and hopefully inspiring discussion group.  Let's get
things
> > started then....
> >
> > Question:  How many out there (Sensei & Students) display,
teach, and
> > practice Funakoshi's Dojo Kun?   OSS!!

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#5 From: "Jim Burke" <skjf@...>
Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: OSS!! mondugal
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-I for one walk the dojo kun.  At times it is not a graceful walk as
the dojo kun also requires practice and training.  I think this is why
the words "SEEK" and ENDEVOUR" are paramount to me when regarding the
dojo kun.

I have also noticed the need to follow it more closely as I attain
higher ranking.  These two things seem to go hand in hand.

OSSS.!

-- In ShotoJukuKai@yahoogroups.com, "shotojuku2002"
<shotojuku2002@y...> wrote:
> As Chief Instructor of the SKJF I would like to welcome one and all
to
> this new and hopefully inspiring discussion group.  Let's get things
> started then....
>
> Question:  How many out there (Sensei & Students) display, teach, and
> practice Funakoshi's Dojo Kun?   OSS!!

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#4 From: "shotojuku2002" <shotojuku2002@...>
Date: Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:44 am
Subject: original post shotojuku2002
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Yes, check the VERY FIRST.....

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