Hi all

Does anyone know of a klinker supplier?  We have developed a rather
large hole at the back of our second shale court and we need more
klinker to get the level back.

Thanks

Simon

EPLTC

----Original Message----
From: david.garrett@...
Date: 21/01/2008 11:45
To: <ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com>
Subj: Re: [Shale Courts] Re: Shale Supply

Hi John,

I have now received samples of Medium, Top, and Extra Fine shale from Peter Maxton.   Peter said in his e-mail, " I will include a sample of our extra fine material which is very similar to the material used on some continental courts and is quite 'dusty'."

 

I have now examined the samples, and find the Medium has quite a large percentage of grains up to 4mm, plus about 50% that is very fine - including dust.  The Top grade is about equivalent to the Terre Davis Medium (Sottomanto), with about 20% grains between 1 and 2.5mm. 

 

The Extra Fine has a maximum grain size of about 1mm, but seems to have less actual dust.   The Medium and Top grades have about the same dust content as the Terre Davis Medium. 

 

I was wondering how you found the comparison with Terre Davis shale.  That might tell me how typical my samples are.  I will, of course, report my findings to Peter, and see if the Extra Fine does have a minimum as well as a maximum grain size, as it appears to me.  I am surprised that the Sheffield club found the Medium satisfactory on its own, as the recommendation on the web site suggests.  It would appear to me that the Extra Fine is an ideal top dressing.  Unfortunately, I have no Terre Davis Fine dressing left to use for comparisons.

 

Best regards,

David.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: korkymildred

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:20 AM

Subject: [Shale Courts] Re: Shale Supply

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "canddinnz" <david.garrett@...> wrote:
David et al

We have not used the Maxsports shale but I had been contemplating
ordering some. I got small samples (med and fine) from Peter Maxton
and it certainly looks good. The "fine" is not as powdery as the
Italian product and this may be a good thing. As I understand it the
North European approach is to use shale which is less fine. I note
that Peter produces quotes from a couple of clubs, one I know of in
Rochdale and this is a good club so I'm assuming all is satisfactory.

The price seems a bit steep to me considering the imported Italian
stuff was cheaper(?) but also I am comparing against Scottish blaes
which is about £25 per ton (altho horrendous) and powdered red granite
which is £50. I don't like the granite as it does not seem to hold
moisture.

If anyone in Scotland is ordering I would like to hear from them and
maybe we can combine orders.

David, I'll comment on your irrigation email soon...thanks for the input.

John Lord (Peebles LTC)
>
> Until last year, we at Sutton Churches Tennis Club had been using
> Merrick Howse as a supplier of shale that was imported from Terre
> Davis in Italy. Merrick Howse no longer supplies shale, but
> recommends shale made by Maxsports, who claim to have supplied over 50
> clubs in the past season. The web page to see is
> http://www.tennisdiscount.co.uk/page_18a2007.htm
> From a quotation received from Peter Maxton, prices appear to have
> risen to £290 per tonne inc VAT and delivery.
>
> Can members with experience of this shale please comment on its
> colour, grain sizes, etc, and compare it to the Terre Davis product if
> possible.
>
> All the Best for 2008!
>
> David Garrett.
>

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16

David

This is very useful information on your system.  Basically I was going
for a cheap and cheerful setup based upon the fact that mobile
sprinklers driven from the mains appeared to be somewhat effective.  I
take your point about having to run for several hours though as I saw
this in practice with our court watering.  The local bowling club has
a tank and pump system.

Basically I don't think we have the financial resources to follow your
example, one of the factors being that our 2 hard courts need
resurfacing and they will take priority.  I have mentioned by basic
idea to the plumber who deals with our mains supply so I must get his
view on feasibility.

Thanks again

John

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "canddinnz" <david.garrett@...> wrote:
>
> As I installed a system of pipes and sprinklers at our club about 20
> years ago, I have a few comments:
> 1. We used a plastic piping (polypropylene, I think) and buried it
> just under the surface, but not in the playing area.  Several
> sections of it became visible after some time, but it never gave any
> trouble even though it wasn't drained in winter.  Apparently the
> pipe can expand enough if the water freezes.  I don't think the
> water board's regulations about burying to 1'(?) would apply under a
> shale court, but check.
> 2. We have decent pressure, but the other requirement is to have
> large enough pipe bores all the way from the main, and to have a
> large meter. (Most are 1/2", or 3/4" if you're lucky.) If we ran
> more than two sprinkler heads at a time, the throw was
> insufficient.  That is why we forked out for a tank and pumping
> system.  The new system uses a 1kW pump, but only addresses one
> sprinkler head at time.  Thus the throw is a reliable 15 metres, and
> the flow rate is high at about 80 litres/minute.  With our mains-
> powered system, by the time we had finished wetting all the courts,
> the first one had dried out unless we had had them running for
> several hours.  That also required someone to switch them around
> before puddling occurred.
> 3. Our contractor submitted a plan involving pop-up heads close to
> the service lines between pairs of courts.  We changed it so that
> the heads were behind the courts (close to the stop-netting in the
> run-back areas), and with one head between the net posts to fill-in
> areas that might not get covered - especially if there were a
> breeze.  This has proved wise, as it prevents members in the
> clubhouse and lawn area being sprayed when the wind is in the wrong
> direction!
> My advice is to do a flow test before you spend too much time and
> money.  If you know the jet size, devise a test where you can see
> the effect of adding more jets on the distance each jet reaches.
> How much water do you want delivered and in what time?  Unless I've
> made a mistake, you have an area of over 1000sq.m, and need a depth
> of water of, say, 3mm for a moderate wetting: That's 3cu.m, or 3000
> litres.  To deliver that in 1 hour would be a flow rate of 50
> litres/min.  How much pressure would there be at that flow rate?
> Would each head throw as far as you need?
>
> Good luck!
> David.
>
> --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred"
> <korkymildred@> wrote:
> >
> > I am contemplating using the mains water supply and Gardena pop up
> > sprinklers to irrigate our 3 shale courts (pictured in the
> gallery).
> > I reason that as the existing pressure will run 2 mobile sprinklers
> > then running pipes below the surface to points between the courts
> > would enable us to install pop-up sprinklers which could operate to
> > water the courts but with less hassle.  An Edinburgh club has a
> mains
> > driven system i.e. no storage tank, linked to sprinklers with an
> > automatic facility they made themselves.
> >
> > So I would extend 2 pipes from the existing point both of which
> could
> > be isolated so as to run 1 set as I anticipate a pressure problem
> > (maybe not?).  Installing 2 popup sprinklers per line would give us
> > some cover.  I realise this bears no comparison with proper auto
> > systems but this setup may make it possible to get some water on
> our
> > courts with a minimum of manual effort.  The sprinklers I am
> > considering are the Gardena 140 series which have a range of 15m;
> they
> > oscillate back and forth.  I have yet to establish the pattern(s)
> of
> > the area covered.  Interestingly there are time clocks available in
> > some of the systems they offer.  The sprinklers are about £50 each
> so
> > the total cost for sprinklers and MDPE pipe would be less than £500
> > for the arrangement I am contemplating.
> >
> > Since I guess we would drain the system in winter the depth for the
> > MDPE supply pipes I am considering is around 1 foot.
> >
> > I would be intersted to have comments/suggestions etc from anyone
> out
> > there.
> >
> > John Lord
> >
> > (Peebles TC)
> >
>

David

Thanks for this information.  I only had 2 samples from Peter M. these
being the Medium and Top (written fine on the bag).  I have no
first-hand knowledge of the Terre Davis very fine material (finale
mante?)other than handling it  at another club and I mentally compared
it to "talc" it was so fine. This is the club which found it entirely
unsuitable because of a slippery final surface after a few days.  I
never got to the bottom of why this happened but it put me off ever
trying it.  Possibly there was some sort of physical interaction with
the Blaes particles or they used too much.  I understand that you have
used it without problems?

I would have said a mix of particle size including dust was
appropriate in order to assist the binding together of any of the
layers.  This is purely my thinking on the subject without any
evidence to back it up!  Very fine material must be ill-advised
without an irrigation programme I would have thought and I have heard
some clubs up here report that the top surface is blown away.  This
may be why most Scottish clubs have traditionally used the cheap Blaes
which is a crude product with a wide variation in particle size.  It
does powder down easily.

So I'm afraid I am not much help.  It would be interesting to know
what the specifications were for the old UK shale.

John
--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "David Garrett"
<david.garrett@...> wrote:
>
>   Hi John,
>   I have now received samples of Medium, Top, and Extra Fine shale
from Peter Maxton.   Peter said in his e-mail, " I will include a
sample of our extra fine material which is very similar to the
material used on some continental courts and is quite 'dusty'."
>
>   I have now examined the samples, and find the Medium has quite a
large percentage of grains up to 4mm, plus about 50% that is very fine
- including dust.  The Top grade is about equivalent to the Terre
Davis Medium (Sottomanto), with about 20% grains between 1 and 2.5mm.
>
>   The Extra Fine has a maximum grain size of about 1mm, but seems to
have less actual dust.   The Medium and Top grades have about the same
dust content as the Terre Davis Medium.
>
>   I was wondering how you found the comparison with Terre Davis
shale.  That might tell me how typical my samples are.  I will, of
course, report my findings to Peter, and see if the Extra Fine does
have a minimum as well as a maximum grain size, as it appears to me.
I am surprised that the Sheffield club found the Medium satisfactory
on its own, as the recommendation on the web site suggests.  It would
appear to me that the Extra Fine is an ideal top dressing.
Unfortunately, I have no Terre Davis Fine dressing left to use for
comparisons.
>
>   Best regards,
>
>   David.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>     From: korkymildred
>     To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:20 AM
>     Subject: [Shale Courts] Re: Shale Supply
>
>
>     --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "canddinnz" <david.garrett@>
wrote:
>     David et al
>
>     We have not used the Maxsports shale but I had been contemplating
>     ordering some. I got small samples (med and fine) from Peter Maxton
>     and it certainly looks good. The "fine" is not as powdery as the
>     Italian product and this may be a good thing. As I understand it the
>     North European approach is to use shale which is less fine. I note
>     that Peter produces quotes from a couple of clubs, one I know of in
>     Rochdale and this is a good club so I'm assuming all is
satisfactory.
>
>     The price seems a bit steep to me considering the imported Italian
>     stuff was cheaper(?) but also I am comparing against Scottish blaes
>     which is about £25 per ton (altho horrendous) and powdered red
granite
>     which is £50. I don't like the granite as it does not seem to hold
>     moisture.
>
>     If anyone in Scotland is ordering I would like to hear from them and
>     maybe we can combine orders.
>
>     David, I'll comment on your irrigation email soon...thanks for
the input.
>
>     John Lord (Peebles LTC)
>     >
>     > Until last year, we at Sutton Churches Tennis Club had been using
>     > Merrick Howse as a supplier of shale that was imported from Terre
>     > Davis in Italy. Merrick Howse no longer supplies shale, but
>     > recommends shale made by Maxsports, who claim to have supplied
over 50
>     > clubs in the past season. The web page to see is
>     > http://www.tennisdiscount.co.uk/page_18a2007.htm
>     > From a quotation received from Peter Maxton, prices appear to
have
>     > risen to £290 per tonne inc VAT and delivery.
>     >
>     > Can members with experience of this shale please comment on its
>     > colour, grain sizes, etc, and compare it to the Terre Davis
product if
>     > possible.
>     >
>     > All the Best for 2008!
>     >
>     > David Garrett.
>     >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>     Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>     Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date:
09/01/2008 10:16
>

Hi John,

I have now received samples of Medium, Top, and Extra Fine shale from Peter Maxton.   Peter said in his e-mail, " I will include a sample of our extra fine material which is very similar to the material used on some continental courts and is quite 'dusty'."

 

I have now examined the samples, and find the Medium has quite a large percentage of grains up to 4mm, plus about 50% that is very fine - including dust.  The Top grade is about equivalent to the Terre Davis Medium (Sottomanto), with about 20% grains between 1 and 2.5mm. 

 

The Extra Fine has a maximum grain size of about 1mm, but seems to have less actual dust.   The Medium and Top grades have about the same dust content as the Terre Davis Medium. 

 

I was wondering how you found the comparison with Terre Davis shale.  That might tell me how typical my samples are.  I will, of course, report my findings to Peter, and see if the Extra Fine does have a minimum as well as a maximum grain size, as it appears to me.  I am surprised that the Sheffield club found the Medium satisfactory on its own, as the recommendation on the web site suggests.  It would appear to me that the Extra Fine is an ideal top dressing.  Unfortunately, I have no Terre Davis Fine dressing left to use for comparisons.

 

Best regards,

David.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: korkymildred

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:20 AM

Subject: [Shale Courts] Re: Shale Supply

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "canddinnz" <david.garrett@...> wrote:
David et al

We have not used the Maxsports shale but I had been contemplating
ordering some. I got small samples (med and fine) from Peter Maxton
and it certainly looks good. The "fine" is not as powdery as the
Italian product and this may be a good thing. As I understand it the
North European approach is to use shale which is less fine. I note
that Peter produces quotes from a couple of clubs, one I know of in
Rochdale and this is a good club so I'm assuming all is satisfactory.

The price seems a bit steep to me considering the imported Italian
stuff was cheaper(?) but also I am comparing against Scottish blaes
which is about £25 per ton (altho horrendous) and powdered red granite
which is £50. I don't like the granite as it does not seem to hold
moisture.

If anyone in Scotland is ordering I would like to hear from them and
maybe we can combine orders.

David, I'll comment on your irrigation email soon...thanks for the input.

John Lord (Peebles LTC)
>
> Until last year, we at Sutton Churches Tennis Club had been using
> Merrick Howse as a supplier of shale that was imported from Terre
> Davis in Italy. Merrick Howse no longer supplies shale, but
> recommends shale made by Maxsports, who claim to have supplied over 50
> clubs in the past season. The web page to see is
> http://www.tennisdiscount.co.uk/page_18a2007.htm
> From a quotation received from Peter Maxton, prices appear to have
> risen to £290 per tonne inc VAT and delivery.
>
> Can members with experience of this shale please comment on its
> colour, grain sizes, etc, and compare it to the Terre Davis product if
> possible.
>
> All the Best for 2008!
>
> David Garrett.
>

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "canddinnz" <david.garrett@...> wrote:
David et al

We have not used the Maxsports shale but I had been contemplating
ordering some.  I got small samples (med and fine) from Peter Maxton
and it certainly looks good.  The "fine" is not as powdery as the
Italian product and this may be a good thing.  As I understand it the
North European approach is to use shale which is less fine.  I note
that Peter produces quotes from a couple of clubs, one I know of in
Rochdale and this is a good club so I'm assuming all is satisfactory.

The price seems a bit steep to me considering the imported Italian
stuff was cheaper(?) but also I am comparing against Scottish blaes
which is about £25 per ton (altho horrendous) and powdered red granite
which is £50.  I don't like the granite as it does not seem to hold
moisture.

If anyone in Scotland is ordering I would like to hear from them and
maybe we can combine orders.

David, I'll comment on your irrigation email soon...thanks for the input.

John Lord  (Peebles LTC)
>
> Until last year, we at Sutton Churches Tennis Club had been using
> Merrick Howse as a supplier of shale that was imported from Terre
> Davis in Italy.  Merrick Howse no longer supplies shale, but
> recommends shale made by Maxsports, who claim to have supplied over 50
> clubs in the past season.  The web page to see is
> http://www.tennisdiscount.co.uk/page_18a2007.htm
> From a quotation received from Peter Maxton, prices appear to have
> risen to £290 per tonne inc VAT and delivery.
>
> Can members with experience of this shale please comment on its
> colour, grain sizes, etc, and compare it to the Terre Davis product if
> possible.
>
> All the Best for 2008!
>
> David Garrett.
>

Until last year, we at Sutton Churches Tennis Club had been using
Merrick Howse as a supplier of shale that was imported from Terre
Davis in Italy.  Merrick Howse no longer supplies shale, but
recommends shale made by Maxsports, who claim to have supplied over 50
clubs in the past season.  The web page to see is
http://www.tennisdiscount.co.uk/page_18a2007.htm
From a quotation received from Peter Maxton, prices appear to have
risen to £290 per tonne inc VAT and delivery.

Can members with experience of this shale please comment on its
colour, grain sizes, etc, and compare it to the Terre Davis product if
possible.

All the Best for 2008!

David Garrett.

As I installed a system of pipes and sprinklers at our club about 20
years ago, I have a few comments:
1. We used a plastic piping (polypropylene, I think) and buried it
just under the surface, but not in the playing area.  Several
sections of it became visible after some time, but it never gave any
trouble even though it wasn't drained in winter.  Apparently the
pipe can expand enough if the water freezes.  I don't think the
water board's regulations about burying to 1'(?) would apply under a
shale court, but check.
2. We have decent pressure, but the other requirement is to have
large enough pipe bores all the way from the main, and to have a
large meter. (Most are 1/2", or 3/4" if you're lucky.) If we ran
more than two sprinkler heads at a time, the throw was
insufficient.  That is why we forked out for a tank and pumping
system.  The new system uses a 1kW pump, but only addresses one
sprinkler head at time.  Thus the throw is a reliable 15 metres, and
the flow rate is high at about 80 litres/minute.  With our mains-
powered system, by the time we had finished wetting all the courts,
the first one had dried out unless we had had them running for
several hours.  That also required someone to switch them around
before puddling occurred.
3. Our contractor submitted a plan involving pop-up heads close to
the service lines between pairs of courts.  We changed it so that
the heads were behind the courts (close to the stop-netting in the
run-back areas), and with one head between the net posts to fill-in
areas that might not get covered - especially if there were a
breeze.  This has proved wise, as it prevents members in the
clubhouse and lawn area being sprayed when the wind is in the wrong
direction!
My advice is to do a flow test before you spend too much time and
money.  If you know the jet size, devise a test where you can see
the effect of adding more jets on the distance each jet reaches.
How much water do you want delivered and in what time?  Unless I've
made a mistake, you have an area of over 1000sq.m, and need a depth
of water of, say, 3mm for a moderate wetting: That's 3cu.m, or 3000
litres.  To deliver that in 1 hour would be a flow rate of 50
litres/min.  How much pressure would there be at that flow rate?
Would each head throw as far as you need?

Good luck!
David.

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred"
<korkymildred@...> wrote:
>
> I am contemplating using the mains water supply and Gardena pop up
> sprinklers to irrigate our 3 shale courts (pictured in the
gallery).
> I reason that as the existing pressure will run 2 mobile sprinklers
> then running pipes below the surface to points between the courts
> would enable us to install pop-up sprinklers which could operate to
> water the courts but with less hassle.  An Edinburgh club has a
mains
> driven system i.e. no storage tank, linked to sprinklers with an
> automatic facility they made themselves.
>
> So I would extend 2 pipes from the existing point both of which
could
> be isolated so as to run 1 set as I anticipate a pressure problem
> (maybe not?).  Installing 2 popup sprinklers per line would give us
> some cover.  I realise this bears no comparison with proper auto
> systems but this setup may make it possible to get some water on
our
> courts with a minimum of manual effort.  The sprinklers I am
> considering are the Gardena 140 series which have a range of 15m;
they
> oscillate back and forth.  I have yet to establish the pattern(s)
of
> the area covered.  Interestingly there are time clocks available in
> some of the systems they offer.  The sprinklers are about £50 each
so
> the total cost for sprinklers and MDPE pipe would be less than £500
> for the arrangement I am contemplating.
>
> Since I guess we would drain the system in winter the depth for the
> MDPE supply pipes I am considering is around 1 foot.
>
> I would be intersted to have comments/suggestions etc from anyone
out
> there.
>
> John Lord
>
> (Peebles TC)
>

I report that the performance of the Speziala lines has exceeded
expectations.  I would not return to the standard plastic lines for
all the tea in China.  They remained in place throughout the season
and were easy to dismantle.  Because of the court's unevenness some
nails had to be used, probably around 100 per court but this contrasts
with 2 or 3 thousand for conventional lines.  If a court is of high
standard with regard to top surface and level then no nails would be
necessary.  It was evident from certain sections of the line as to the
bedding process which occurs to anchor the lines to the surface.

I would estimate that it would take no more than 1 hour for 4
individuals to lay a complete court.  Once the anchor tubes are in
position then it may take even less.  The anchor tubes remain embedded
in the court over the winter;they are heavy duty steel pipes which
would have to be dug out I presume.  I intend to cover these with
matting for weather/heave protection.

So I unhesitatingly recommend these lines for substantial time/labour
saving and performance.  Because of their robust construction it would
take an axe to cut them and they will last for decades.

John Lord

(Peebles TC)

I am contemplating using the mains water supply and Gardena pop up
sprinklers to irrigate our 3 shale courts (pictured in the gallery).
I reason that as the existing pressure will run 2 mobile sprinklers
then running pipes below the surface to points between the courts
would enable us to install pop-up sprinklers which could operate to
water the courts but with less hassle.  An Edinburgh club has a mains
driven system i.e. no storage tank, linked to sprinklers with an
automatic facility they made themselves.

So I would extend 2 pipes from the existing point both of which could
be isolated so as to run 1 set as I anticipate a pressure problem
(maybe not?).  Installing 2 popup sprinklers per line would give us
some cover.  I realise this bears no comparison with proper auto
systems but this setup may make it possible to get some water on our
courts with a minimum of manual effort.  The sprinklers I am
considering are the Gardena 140 series which have a range of 15m; they
oscillate back and forth.  I have yet to establish the pattern(s) of
the area covered.  Interestingly there are time clocks available in
some of the systems they offer.  The sprinklers are about £50 each so
the total cost for sprinklers and MDPE pipe would be less than £500
for the arrangement I am contemplating.

Since I guess we would drain the system in winter the depth for the
MDPE supply pipes I am considering is around 1 foot.

I would be intersted to have comments/suggestions etc from anyone out
there.

John Lord

(Peebles TC)

A progress report on the lines is that performance has been very good
and the lines are well-embedded in the court surface despite periods
of dry weather which in the absence of adequate watering I thought
might lead to trouble.  The characteristics of "line balls" are better
than plastic lines and at the moment I would say they are much
superior from every perspective.  If we are able to level the courts
such that interval nailing became unnecessary I would regard them as
superb.

I noted in the French Open at Roland Garros that nailless lines
appeared to be used but these looked like solid lines of a cement-like
composition.

John Lord (Peebles TC)

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> Len
>
> Thanks for the description.
>
> I also used the roller but found that our surface was not level enough
> and that minor irregularities caused "bridging".  We are having to
> accept some instability of the lines which I think you are avoiding
> because of your superior surface. The Novotech guy I contacted some
> time ago stressed that the surface had to be as level as possible for
> their lines to work as designed.  I guess we have to try harder next
> time and certainly we have learnt a great deal from our first
> experiences with these lines.  But I believe that basically we have to
> improve the nature of the shale surface by loading with substantial
> quantities of properly derived and graded material.
>
> John Lord
> --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "ASHFORD TENNIS CLUB"
> <lenandmaryclaremont@> wrote:
> >
> > In reply to your query we have tried two methods the first was on the
> > base lines which we removed the old lines and then followed the
> > instructions in laying the new lines.
> > We removed some old material from under the old lines and then
> > scraped out the width and depth of the new line, we then filled the
> > groove with fresh shale and installed the line.
> > To seat the line down we simple put our roller over it this seemed to
> > bed the line down alright.
> > We continued to add shale and compact it the result was reasonable
> > satisfactory.
> > The first base line has bedded down very well.
> > Since then we have had a very dry spell and to add to our problems
> > our pump packed up so we have been without water for two weeks
> > therefore unable to use the courts and high winds have blown away
> > large quantities of shale.
> > Today we inspected the original base line and this one is bedded down
> > very well however the other one is a little loose in places and will
> > require some more shale and watering in.
> > We have just completed putting down our first side line this time we
> > have used a slightly different method.
> > We made a channel for the new line to sit in but did not fill it with
> > fresh shale we then tensioned the line made sure it was straight the
> > filled in the gaps with fresh shale and brushed it in to the gaps.
> > We are now going to allow water action to wash in the shale and then
> > add more as required.
> > We will monitor the result to see if is better than the first effort.
> >
> > Len Claremont
> > --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I have established that the Speziala lines are not manufactured by
> > > Novotech.  I thought they were as they are identical to their "old
> > > type" design and presumed there was some rebranding in Germany.
> > > However subsequent contact with Novotech revealed the situation.
> > >
> > > The lines are holding up pretty well despite the incredible dry
> > spell
> > > (2 rain episodes in April).  Fortunately our on-court water point
> > has
> > > eased manual watering but it is still insufficient.
> > >
> > > LenandMary...could I try and prise info from you on the query I had
> > on
> > > your line-laying?  Is your baseline absolutely level in order to
> > > support the nailless line and did you tamp in and with what?
> > >
> > > I believe we will have to add top quality standard shale to our
> > > surface to get the composition which will hold the lines.    This
> > > could mean the use of "thickness fillets" to establish a level
> > surface.
> > >
> > > Off Topic..ATP website is streaming the Italian Open on
> > broadband....
> > >
> > > John Lord
> > >
> > > --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Just to update you on details again.  These are made by Novotech
> > in
> > > > Czechoslovakia (www.novotech.info) and can be obtained from them
> > or
> > > the German online store Topspin Tennis (www.topspintennis.de).
> > > >
> > > > I ordered 3 sets from the German site and corresponded with their
> > > director by
> > > > email (Boris Krumm).  We paid 806 euros or £564 for the 3 sets and
> > > > this included the tensioner and the bank commission so this works
> > out
> > > > at £188 per court.  The tensioner appears very similar to the
> > device
> > > > hauliers use for fixing sheets to their lorries and is a simple
> > > > ratchet device for gripping the lines; it should be secured to a
> > > > strong metal rod secured beyond the end of the line being layed.
> > > > Considering the price of a set of standard lines is around £190
> > > > including new nails this price is good.  I estimated that 3000
> > nails
> > > > and 20 hours were needed to do one court by one man using the
> > flexible
> > > > tapes we normally use.
> > > >
> > > > The 2 sites give you reasonable pictures of the lines themselves
> > and
> > > > the Novotech brochure itself is a fascinating read as they have an
> > > > extaordinary range of tennis court- and sport-related equipment.
> > (I
> > > > will post some Peebles pictures sometime if I can manage this.)
> > The
> > > > principle is fairly simple.  The lines are secured at line
> > > > intersections by heavy-duty steel tubes about 8" long which are
> > > > slightly angled and then hammered into the court just forward of
> > the
> > > > actual corners.  As the lines are rigid and slotted with a
> > separate
> > > > end piece, a steel peg can be hammered through each line into the
> > tube
> > > > when the line is tensioned.  The line then lies along the court.
> > Here
> > > > I would suggest a groove should have been prepared as per the
> > Donald
> > > > Mowat method of hammering depressions with wood along a straight
> > string.
> > > >
> > > > My concern is that unless you have a level court the line may be
> > > > "suspended" at some points but the Drummond club who have used the
> > > > same lines for several years have banged in nails at metre
> > intervals
> > > > to support the line.  Another concern I have is what happens if
> > the
> > > > court dries and  breaks up because of insufficient care over the
> > > > surface and insufficient watering.  In any event the Drummond club
> > > > swear by them and their chairman was eager to replenish stocks
> > when he
> > > > heard of their existence on the continent; they can do 1 court in
> > 2
> > > > hours.  They must have been available in the UK in the distant
> > past.
> > > > They were used in the UK v Ukraine Davis Cup match.
> > > >
> > > > Well I leave it at that and update you on progress.
> > > >
> > > > John Lord  (Peebles TC)
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Len

Thanks for the description.

I also used the roller but found that our surface was not level enough
and that minor irregularities caused "bridging".  We are having to
accept some instability of the lines which I think you are avoiding
because of your superior surface. The Novotech guy I contacted some
time ago stressed that the surface had to be as level as possible for
their lines to work as designed.  I guess we have to try harder next
time and certainly we have learnt a great deal from our first
experiences with these lines.  But I believe that basically we have to
improve the nature of the shale surface by loading with substantial
quantities of properly derived and graded material.

John Lord
--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "ASHFORD TENNIS CLUB"
<lenandmaryclaremont@...> wrote:
>
> In reply to your query we have tried two methods the first was on the
> base lines which we removed the old lines and then followed the
> instructions in laying the new lines.
> We removed some old material from under the old lines and then
> scraped out the width and depth of the new line, we then filled the
> groove with fresh shale and installed the line.
> To seat the line down we simple put our roller over it this seemed to
> bed the line down alright.
> We continued to add shale and compact it the result was reasonable
> satisfactory.
> The first base line has bedded down very well.
> Since then we have had a very dry spell and to add to our problems
> our pump packed up so we have been without water for two weeks
> therefore unable to use the courts and high winds have blown away
> large quantities of shale.
> Today we inspected the original base line and this one is bedded down
> very well however the other one is a little loose in places and will
> require some more shale and watering in.
> We have just completed putting down our first side line this time we
> have used a slightly different method.
> We made a channel for the new line to sit in but did not fill it with
> fresh shale we then tensioned the line made sure it was straight the
> filled in the gaps with fresh shale and brushed it in to the gaps.
> We are now going to allow water action to wash in the shale and then
> add more as required.
> We will monitor the result to see if is better than the first effort.
>
> Len Claremont
> --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have established that the Speziala lines are not manufactured by
> > Novotech.  I thought they were as they are identical to their "old
> > type" design and presumed there was some rebranding in Germany.
> > However subsequent contact with Novotech revealed the situation.
> >
> > The lines are holding up pretty well despite the incredible dry
> spell
> > (2 rain episodes in April).  Fortunately our on-court water point
> has
> > eased manual watering but it is still insufficient.
> >
> > LenandMary...could I try and prise info from you on the query I had
> on
> > your line-laying?  Is your baseline absolutely level in order to
> > support the nailless line and did you tamp in and with what?
> >
> > I believe we will have to add top quality standard shale to our
> > surface to get the composition which will hold the lines.    This
> > could mean the use of "thickness fillets" to establish a level
> surface.
> >
> > Off Topic..ATP website is streaming the Italian Open on
> broadband....
> >
> > John Lord
> >
> > --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Just to update you on details again.  These are made by Novotech
> in
> > > Czechoslovakia (www.novotech.info) and can be obtained from them
> or
> > the German online store Topspin Tennis (www.topspintennis.de).
> > >
> > > I ordered 3 sets from the German site and corresponded with their
> > director by
> > > email (Boris Krumm).  We paid 806 euros or £564 for the 3 sets and
> > > this included the tensioner and the bank commission so this works
> out
> > > at £188 per court.  The tensioner appears very similar to the
> device
> > > hauliers use for fixing sheets to their lorries and is a simple
> > > ratchet device for gripping the lines; it should be secured to a
> > > strong metal rod secured beyond the end of the line being layed.
> > > Considering the price of a set of standard lines is around £190
> > > including new nails this price is good.  I estimated that 3000
> nails
> > > and 20 hours were needed to do one court by one man using the
> flexible
> > > tapes we normally use.
> > >
> > > The 2 sites give you reasonable pictures of the lines themselves
> and
> > > the Novotech brochure itself is a fascinating read as they have an
> > > extaordinary range of tennis court- and sport-related equipment.
> (I
> > > will post some Peebles pictures sometime if I can manage this.)
> The
> > > principle is fairly simple.  The lines are secured at line
> > > intersections by heavy-duty steel tubes about 8" long which are
> > > slightly angled and then hammered into the court just forward of
> the
> > > actual corners.  As the lines are rigid and slotted with a
> separate
> > > end piece, a steel peg can be hammered through each line into the
> tube
> > > when the line is tensioned.  The line then lies along the court.
> Here
> > > I would suggest a groove should have been prepared as per the
> Donald
> > > Mowat method of hammering depressions with wood along a straight
> string.
> > >
> > > My concern is that unless you have a level court the line may be
> > > "suspended" at some points but the Drummond club who have used the
> > > same lines for several years have banged in nails at metre
> intervals
> > > to support the line.  Another concern I have is what happens if
> the
> > > court dries and  breaks up because of insufficient care over the
> > > surface and insufficient watering.  In any event the Drummond club
> > > swear by them and their chairman was eager to replenish stocks
> when he
> > > heard of their existence on the continent; they can do 1 court in
> 2
> > > hours.  They must have been available in the UK in the distant
> past.
> > > They were used in the UK v Ukraine Davis Cup match.
> > >
> > > Well I leave it at that and update you on progress.
> > >
> > > John Lord  (Peebles TC)
> > >
> >
>

In reply to your query we have tried two methods the first was on the
base lines which we removed the old lines and then followed the
instructions in laying the new lines.
We removed some old material from under the old lines and then
scraped out the width and depth of the new line, we then filled the
groove with fresh shale and installed the line.
To seat the line down we simple put our roller over it this seemed to
bed the line down alright.
We continued to add shale and compact it the result was reasonable
satisfactory.
The first base line has bedded down very well.
Since then we have had a very dry spell and to add to our problems
our pump packed up so we have been without water for two weeks
therefore unable to use the courts and high winds have blown away
large quantities of shale.
Today we inspected the original base line and this one is bedded down
very well however the other one is a little loose in places and will
require some more shale and watering in.
We have just completed putting down our first side line this time we
have used a slightly different method.
We made a channel for the new line to sit in but did not fill it with
fresh shale we then tensioned the line made sure it was straight the
filled in the gaps with fresh shale and brushed it in to the gaps.
We are now going to allow water action to wash in the shale and then
add more as required.
We will monitor the result to see if is better than the first effort.

Len Claremont
--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> I have established that the Speziala lines are not manufactured by
> Novotech.  I thought they were as they are identical to their "old
> type" design and presumed there was some rebranding in Germany.
> However subsequent contact with Novotech revealed the situation.
>
> The lines are holding up pretty well despite the incredible dry
spell
> (2 rain episodes in April).  Fortunately our on-court water point
has
> eased manual watering but it is still insufficient.
>
> LenandMary...could I try and prise info from you on the query I had
on
> your line-laying?  Is your baseline absolutely level in order to
> support the nailless line and did you tamp in and with what?
>
> I believe we will have to add top quality standard shale to our
> surface to get the composition which will hold the lines.    This
> could mean the use of "thickness fillets" to establish a level
surface.
>
> Off Topic..ATP website is streaming the Italian Open on
broadband....
>
> John Lord
>
> --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Just to update you on details again.  These are made by Novotech
in
> > Czechoslovakia (www.novotech.info) and can be obtained from them
or
> the German online store Topspin Tennis (www.topspintennis.de).
> >
> > I ordered 3 sets from the German site and corresponded with their
> director by
> > email (Boris Krumm).  We paid 806 euros or £564 for the 3 sets and
> > this included the tensioner and the bank commission so this works
out
> > at £188 per court.  The tensioner appears very similar to the
device
> > hauliers use for fixing sheets to their lorries and is a simple
> > ratchet device for gripping the lines; it should be secured to a
> > strong metal rod secured beyond the end of the line being layed.
> > Considering the price of a set of standard lines is around £190
> > including new nails this price is good.  I estimated that 3000
nails
> > and 20 hours were needed to do one court by one man using the
flexible
> > tapes we normally use.
> >
> > The 2 sites give you reasonable pictures of the lines themselves
and
> > the Novotech brochure itself is a fascinating read as they have an
> > extaordinary range of tennis court- and sport-related equipment.
(I
> > will post some Peebles pictures sometime if I can manage this.)
The
> > principle is fairly simple.  The lines are secured at line
> > intersections by heavy-duty steel tubes about 8" long which are
> > slightly angled and then hammered into the court just forward of
the
> > actual corners.  As the lines are rigid and slotted with a
separate
> > end piece, a steel peg can be hammered through each line into the
tube
> > when the line is tensioned.  The line then lies along the court.
Here
> > I would suggest a groove should have been prepared as per the
Donald
> > Mowat method of hammering depressions with wood along a straight
string.
> >
> > My concern is that unless you have a level court the line may be
> > "suspended" at some points but the Drummond club who have used the
> > same lines for several years have banged in nails at metre
intervals
> > to support the line.  Another concern I have is what happens if
the
> > court dries and  breaks up because of insufficient care over the
> > surface and insufficient watering.  In any event the Drummond club
> > swear by them and their chairman was eager to replenish stocks
when he
> > heard of their existence on the continent; they can do 1 court in
2
> > hours.  They must have been available in the UK in the distant
past.
> > They were used in the UK v Ukraine Davis Cup match.
> >
> > Well I leave it at that and update you on progress.
> >
> > John Lord  (Peebles TC)
> >
>

I have established that the Speziala lines are not manufactured by
Novotech.  I thought they were as they are identical to their "old
type" design and presumed there was some rebranding in Germany.
However subsequent contact with Novotech revealed the situation.

The lines are holding up pretty well despite the incredible dry spell
(2 rain episodes in April).  Fortunately our on-court water point has
eased manual watering but it is still insufficient.

LenandMary...could I try and prise info from you on the query I had on
your line-laying?  Is your baseline absolutely level in order to
support the nailless line and did you tamp in and with what?

I believe we will have to add top quality standard shale to our
surface to get the composition which will hold the lines.    This
could mean the use of "thickness fillets" to establish a level surface.

Off Topic..ATP website is streaming the Italian Open on broadband....

John Lord

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> Just to update you on details again.  These are made by Novotech in
> Czechoslovakia (www.novotech.info) and can be obtained from them or
the German online store Topspin Tennis (www.topspintennis.de).
>
> I ordered 3 sets from the German site and corresponded with their
director by
> email (Boris Krumm).  We paid 806 euros or £564 for the 3 sets and
> this included the tensioner and the bank commission so this works out
> at £188 per court.  The tensioner appears very similar to the device
> hauliers use for fixing sheets to their lorries and is a simple
> ratchet device for gripping the lines; it should be secured to a
> strong metal rod secured beyond the end of the line being layed.
> Considering the price of a set of standard lines is around £190
> including new nails this price is good.  I estimated that 3000 nails
> and 20 hours were needed to do one court by one man using the flexible
> tapes we normally use.
>
> The 2 sites give you reasonable pictures of the lines themselves and
> the Novotech brochure itself is a fascinating read as they have an
> extaordinary range of tennis court- and sport-related equipment.  (I
> will post some Peebles pictures sometime if I can manage this.)  The
> principle is fairly simple.  The lines are secured at line
> intersections by heavy-duty steel tubes about 8" long which are
> slightly angled and then hammered into the court just forward of the
> actual corners.  As the lines are rigid and slotted with a separate
> end piece, a steel peg can be hammered through each line into the tube
> when the line is tensioned.  The line then lies along the court.  Here
> I would suggest a groove should have been prepared as per the Donald
> Mowat method of hammering depressions with wood along a straight string.
>
> My concern is that unless you have a level court the line may be
> "suspended" at some points but the Drummond club who have used the
> same lines for several years have banged in nails at metre intervals
> to support the line.  Another concern I have is what happens if the
> court dries and  breaks up because of insufficient care over the
> surface and insufficient watering.  In any event the Drummond club
> swear by them and their chairman was eager to replenish stocks when he
> heard of their existence on the continent; they can do 1 court in 2
> hours.  They must have been available in the UK in the distant past.
> They were used in the UK v Ukraine Davis Cup match.
>
> Well I leave it at that and update you on progress.
>
> John Lord  (Peebles TC)
>

Each message comes with a link "Start a new topic" at the bottom. So it
should not be too much trouble to manage!

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> There appears to be a growing tendency for post subjects to be
> hijacked for other topics!  The problem which ensues is that it
> becomes difficult to retrieve information e.g something which started
> as a discussion on lines turns into a piece on weeds and moss.
>
> Perhaps Joanne can suggest how this can be controlled but perhaps in
> the particular format we use this cannot be done.  Maybe it is down to
> self-discipline to go to "Start Topic" rather than just "replying".
> Maybe it doesn't matter.  Anyway it is good that we are getting
> information exchanged..
>
> john Lord
>

Ah, someone else from sunny Scotland.  Helen, I have 2 samples of the
shale and it looks good.  I would imagine that Peter Maxton would be
encouraged to deliver to Scotland if he had a few customers.  I have
been using powdered red granite from Lanarkshire for 2 years and have
some reservations about it altho 2 other clubs in E Scotland are
happy.  Cost is around £40 per ton so is considerably cheaper than
shale.  It is superior to blaes and is available in 2 grades. I would
not use blaes again, it really is dreadful stuff. I can give you more
info if interested.

john Lord  (Peebles TC)

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "Helen at Kingussie TC"
<helen@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
> I am from a small club in the North of Scotland & we have 4 blaes
> courts which are going to need some topping up soon. So I will be very
> interested to hear how Len gets on with the shale from Maxsports.
>

There appears to be a growing tendency for post subjects to be
hijacked for other topics!  The problem which ensues is that it
becomes difficult to retrieve information e.g something which started
as a discussion on lines turns into a piece on weeds and moss.

Perhaps Joanne can suggest how this can be controlled but perhaps in
the particular format we use this cannot be done.  Maybe it is down to
self-discipline to go to "Start Topic" rather than just "replying".
Maybe it doesn't matter.  Anyway it is good that we are getting
information exchanged..

john Lord

----- Original Message -----

From: Malcolm Gibbon

To: shalecourts@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:32 AM

Subject: RE: [SPAM] [Shale Courts] Re: Nailless Lines: First Impressions (see photos)

Len,
I am very interested in your solution to your moss and weed problem as we still struggle to control ours. Can you tell me the name and supplier of the specific product that you use please?
 
Malcolm Gibbon
Gloucester Civil Service TC 

---

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com
From: lenandmaryclaremont@tiscali.co.uk
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:59:50 +0100
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [Shale Courts] Re: Nailless Lines: First Impressions (see photos)

Hi

 

We have recently purchased a set of nailless lines from Germany for one of our shale courts to see if they are better than the old nail version that needed replacing.

So far we have replaced the two base lines one of which seems to have bedded down better than the other.

We have not used any additional fixing point other than the anchor points at each end.

The members have played on the court last night and seem to be impressed with the new lines( we are lucky as we have recently installed floodlights on our three shale courts which the shale lovers think are great).

We can now play on the shale until 10.30 before adjourning to the bar for a well earned drink.

The shale we have been using is a mixture of fine and medium shale from Italy(Manto Finale and Sotto Manto).

However yesterday we received two tonnes of shale from Maxsports Ltd the new British Supplier.

We will be monitoring how it performs.

Regarding moss growing on the courts we found that on serveral years in the past it was a huge problem and therefore we looked for a solution.

We now have Complete Weed Control spray our shale and hardcourts each year and this has completely alleviated the problem and saved the members a lot of work.

 

Len

Ground Rep Ashford Tennis Club (Middlesex).

----- Original Message -----

From: Joanne at Sutton Churches Tennis Club

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:49 PM

Subject: [SPAM] [Shale Courts] Re: Nailless Lines: First Impressions (see photos)

John,

Thanks for posting the photos - they are excellent. The courts look
like they are in very good nick - can't see any stones or weeds -
which puts ours to shame!

With regard to your comment about English courts - looking at yours,
I would say you have at least the depth of fine shale that we use at
Sutton Churches Tennis Club and they also look like they might be
more level. Not sure if our courts would be as suitable for the
nailless lines as yours, but definitely worth considering.

Thanks again,
Joanne

Sutton Churches Tennis Club, Sutton, Surrey.
www.clubtennis.co.uk

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> I have posted photos of the process of line laying with the Czech
> nailless lines.
> ...
> I believe the principal reason for the failure of the naille ss line
to
> work without nails is the poor quality of Scottish blaes we have
> which gives a coarse granular composition to the top surface and
> surface irregularities. You can maybe see the quality of the
surface
> in the photos. The lines are profiled such that they should be
> "stamped" into the surface allowing the "teeth" to bite into the
> surface and hold the line. This only worked to a limited extent.
Two
> important requirements are a very level surface (which we cannot
> achieve at the moment) and a firm but "muddy", fine top surface. It
> is some years since I played on an English shale court and I paid
> little attention at that time to what I was standing on. Also I do
> not recall the pre-restoration appearance of the English court. So
> these lines may work much better with the English shale.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/764 - Release Date: 17/04/2007 04:43

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/764 - Release Date: 17/04/2007 04:43

Hi
I am from a small club in the North of Scotland & we have 4 blaes
courts which are going to need some topping up soon. So I will be very
interested to hear how Len gets on with the shale from Maxsports.

---

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com
From: lenandmaryclaremont@...
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:59:50 +0100
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [Shale Courts] Re: Nailless Lines: First Impressions (see photos)

Hi

 

We have recently purchased a set of nailless lines from Germany for one of our shale courts to see if they are better than the old nail version that needed replacing.

So far we have replaced the two base lines one of which seems to have bedded down better than the other.

We have not used any additional fixing point other than the anchor points at each end.

The members have played on the court last night and seem to be impressed with the new lines( we are lucky as we have recently installed floodlights on our three shale courts which the shale lovers think are great).

We can now play on the shale until 10.30 before adjourning to the bar for a well earned drink.

The shale we have been using is a mixture of fine and medium shale from Italy(Manto Finale and Sotto Manto).

However yesterday we received two tonnes of shale from Maxsports Ltd the new British Supplier.

We will be monitoring how it performs.

Regarding moss growing on the courts we found that on serveral years in the past it was a huge problem and therefore we looked for a solution.

We now have Complete Weed Control spray our shale and hardcourts each year and this has completely alleviated the problem and saved the members a lot of work.

 

Len

Ground Rep Ashford Tennis Club (Middlesex).

----- Original Message -----

From: Joanne at Sutton Churches Tennis Club

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:49 PM

Subject: [SPAM] [Shale Courts] Re: Nailless Lines: First Impressions (see photos)

John,

Thanks for posting the photos - they are excellent. The courts look
like they are in very good nick - can't see any stones or weeds -
which puts ours to shame!

With regard to your comment about English courts - looking at yours,
I would say you have at least the depth of fine shale that we use at
Sutton Churches Tennis Club and they also look like they might be
more level. Not sure if our courts would be as suitable for the
nailless lines as yours, but definitely worth considering.

Thanks again,
Joanne

Sutton Churches Tennis Club, Sutton, Surrey.
www.clubtennis.co.uk

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> I have posted photos of the process of line laying with the Czech
> nailless lines.
> ...
> I believe the principal reason for the failure of the nailless line
to
> work without nails is the poor quality of Scottish blaes we have
> which gives a coarse granular composition to the top surface and
> surface irregularities. You can maybe see the quality of the
surface
> in the photos. The lines are profiled such that they should be
> "stamped" into the surface allowing the "teeth" to bite into the
> surface and hold the line. This only worked to a limited extent.
Two
> important requirements are a very level surface (which we cannot
> achieve at the moment) and a firm but "muddy", fine top surface. It
> is some years since I played on an English shale court and I paid
> little attention at that time to what I was standing on. Also I do
> not recall the pre-restoration appearance of the English court. So
> these lines may work much better with the English shale.

lenandmary

This is very useful information.  Did you stamp the line into the
surface as per instructions and what with?  Our baselines tend to
"dish" so the lines have to secured otherwise they are airborne; this
was particularly true on the finished court in the photo.  The next
year's task with our courts is to attempt to level them but this is
not an easy task and requires appreciable amounts of shale.  The real
benefit of these lines is not obtained unless the court is level.
Pictures of your courts with close-ups would be very interesting.

Kate T...any progress to report..photos would be fascinating..

I have obtained samples of the med and fine shale from Peter Maxton
and it looks good to me.  Some fine grades are too fine for British
courts with basic maintenance and it is soon lost. The Terre Davis
Finale Manto looks like talc.

Joanne...I think the photos flatter our courts to be honest but they
are the best we have managed in 5 years of our own maintenance.

John Lord

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "Len & Mary Claremont"
<lenandmaryclaremont@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> We have recently purchased a set of nailless lines from Germany for
one of our shale courts to see if they are better than the old nail
version that needed replacing.
> So far we have replaced the two base lines one of which seems to
have bedded down better than the other.
> We have not used any additional fixing point other than the anchor
points at each end.
> The members have played on the court last night and seem to be
impressed with the new lines( we are lucky as we have recently
installed floodlights on our three shale courts which the shale lovers
think are great).
> We can now play on the shale until 10.30 before adjourning to the
bar for a well earned drink.
> The shale we have been using is a mixture of fine and medium shale
from Italy(Manto Finale and Sotto Manto).
> However yesterday we received two tonnes of shale from Maxsports Ltd
the new British Supplier.
> We will be monitoring how it performs.
> Regarding moss growing on the courts we found that on serveral years
in the past it was a huge problem and therefore we looked for a solution.
> We now have Complete Weed Control spray our shale and hardcourts
each year and this has completely alleviated the problem and saved the
members a lot of work.
>
> Len
> Ground Rep Ashford Tennis Club (Middlesex).
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Joanne at Sutton Churches Tennis Club
>   To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:49 PM
>   Subject: [SPAM] [Shale Courts] Re: Nailless Lines: First
Impressions (see photos)
>
>
>   John,
>
>   Thanks for posting the photos - they are excellent. The courts look
>   like they are in very good nick - can't see any stones or weeds -
>   which puts ours to shame!
>
>   With regard to your comment about English courts - looking at yours,
>   I would say you have at least the depth of fine shale that we use at
>   Sutton Churches Tennis Club and they also look like they might be
>   more level. Not sure if our courts would be as suitable for the
>   nailless lines as yours, but definitely worth considering.
>
>   Thanks again,
>   Joanne
>
>   Sutton Churches Tennis Club, Sutton, Surrey.
>   www.clubtennis.co.uk
>
>   --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@>
>   wrote:
>   >
>   > I have posted photos of the process of line laying with the Czech
>   > nailless lines.
>   > ...
>   > I believe the principal reason for the failure of the nailless line
>   to
>   > work without nails is the poor quality of Scottish blaes we have
>   > which gives a coarse granular composition to the top surface and
>   > surface irregularities. You can maybe see the quality of the
>   surface
>   > in the photos. The lines are profiled such that they should be
>   > "stamped" into the surface allowing the "teeth" to bite into the
>   > surface and hold the line. This only worked to a limited extent.
>   Two
>   > important requirements are a very level surface (which we cannot
>   > achieve at the moment) and a firm but "muddy", fine top surface. It
>   > is some years since I played on an English shale court and I paid
>   > little attention at that time to what I was standing on. Also I do
>   > not recall the pre-restoration appearance of the English court. So
>   > these lines may work much better with the English shale.
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Joanne at Sutton Churches Tennis Club

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:49 PM

Subject: [SPAM] [Shale Courts] Re: Nailless Lines: First Impressions (see photos)

John,

Thanks for posting the photos - they are excellent. The courts look
like they are in very good nick - can't see any stones or weeds -
which puts ours to shame!

With regard to your comment about English courts - looking at yours,
I would say you have at least the depth of fine shale that we use at
Sutton Churches Tennis Club and they also look like they might be
more level. Not sure if our courts would be as suitable for the
nailless lines as yours, but definitely worth considering.

Thanks again,
Joanne

Sutton Churches Tennis Club, Sutton, Surrey.
www.clubtennis.co.uk

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> I have posted photos of the process of line laying with the Czech
> nailless lines.
> ...
> I believe the principal reason for the failure of the nailless line
to
> work without nails is the poor quality of Scottish blaes we have
> which gives a coarse granular composition to the top surface and
> surface irregularities. You can maybe see the quality of the
surface
> in the photos. The lines are profiled such that they should be
> "stamped" into the surface allowing the "teeth" to bite into the
> surface and hold the line. This only worked to a limited extent.
Two
> important requirements are a very level surface (which we cannot
> achieve at the moment) and a firm but "muddy", fine top surface. It
> is some years since I played on an English shale court and I paid
> little attention at that time to what I was standing on. Also I do
> not recall the pre-restoration appearance of the English court. So
> these lines may work much better with the English shale.

John,

Thanks for posting the photos - they are excellent. The courts look
like they are in very good nick - can't see any stones or weeds -
which puts ours to shame!

With regard to your comment about English courts - looking at yours,
I would say you have at least the depth of fine shale that we use at
Sutton Churches Tennis Club and they also look like they might be
more level. Not sure if our courts would be as suitable for the
nailless lines as yours, but definitely worth considering.

Thanks again,
Joanne

Sutton Churches Tennis Club, Sutton, Surrey.
www.clubtennis.co.uk

--- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "korkymildred" <korkymildred@...>
wrote:
>
> I have posted photos of the process of line laying with the Czech
> nailless lines.
> ...
> I believe the principal reason for the failure of the nailless line
to
>  work without nails is the poor quality of Scottish blaes we have
> which gives a coarse granular composition to the top surface and
> surface irregularities.  You can maybe see the quality of the
surface
> in the photos. The lines are profiled such that they should be
> "stamped" into the surface allowing the "teeth" to bite into the
> surface and hold the line.  This only worked to a limited extent.
Two
> important requirements are a very level surface (which we cannot
> achieve at the moment) and a firm but "muddy", fine top surface.  It
> is some years since I played on an English shale court and I paid
> little attention at that time to what I was standing on.  Also I do
> not recall the pre-restoration appearance of the English court.  So
> these lines may work much better with the English shale.

I have posted photos of the process of line laying with the Czech
nailless lines.

The concept of the lines is that they can be laid without nails
between 2 anchor points placed close to the ends of the lines.  We
quickly found this was not possible as indicated by the Edinburgh club
who have used them for several years.  But to the process we used.

Laying the line
1.  We stretched a string between the measured court position and made
a groove with a wood "scriber" against a straight edge (a steel
girder)placed a line width from the string.  Loose shale was trowelled
away and the bottom of the groove smoothed with a 1m piece of wood.
This is a more drastic version of the Donald Mowat method which is
just to tamp a groove against the string.  We had to do this because
of the hardening shale surface and the need to embed the line properly.

2.  Steel anchor tube hammered into court near end of line

3. A tensioner connected to the line pulls it along the groove

4. Line is secured by hammering a small steel plate through a slot
into the tube.

We had to hammer conventional nails into the slots of the line
securing to the court in the normal way.  This was done at irregular
intervals as required.  I would say we used no more than a couple of
hundred nails as against the 3000 or so for a conventional lined court.

I believe the principal reason for the failure of the nailless line to
  work without nails is the poor quality of Scottish blaes we have
which gives a coarse granular composition to the top surface and
surface irregularities.  You can maybe see the quality of the surface
in the photos. The lines are profiled such that they should be
"stamped" into the surface allowing the "teeth" to bite into the
surface and hold the line.  This only worked to a limited extent. Two
important requirements are a very level surface (which we cannot
achieve at the moment) and a firm but "muddy", fine top surface.  It
is some years since I played on an English shale court and I paid
little attention at that time to what I was standing on.  Also I do
not recall the pre-restoration appearance of the English court.  So
these lines may work much better with the English shale.

However the end result is much superior to the standard plastic lines
and the time taken to lay the lines was substantially down.  The
courts are the best we have experienced since we started to prepare
our own courts.

Any club with a very good and level surface should consider these
lines.  What I am uncertain of at the moment is whether they will stay
in position and how easy it is to remove the small securing plates.
The anchor points presumably stay in place.

One good bit of news is that our "on court" water pipe, buried for
several years beneath the surface, has been declared "live" by the
plumber so we should have a superior water point soon...

John Lord (Peebles LTC)

----- Original Message -----

From: korkymildred

To: ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:24 AM

Subject: [Shale Courts] Drummond scarifier

I have posted a photo of the Edinburgh club (Drummond) scarifier.
This is a motorised mower converted by replacing the cutters with a
board into which scarifying prongs have been hammered. Before they
used a sled into which nails had been embedded and this was weighted
with shale and manhandled across the court! This is an interesting
photo as there are a number of features on display. They have started
the scarifying and the resultant upheaval of the court is evident. I
visited their courts and saw the degree of disruption at firsthand..it
is somewhat alarming but they assured me that all would be well in the
end. At this stage they will perhaps scarify again then leave to dry
out and for the clumps to separate into finer particles. Then
powdered red granite will be added and the surface levelled by the
standard method of dragging a ladder across the surface.

This is the club which found the Italian shale (Manto Finale)unusable
due to the formation of a slippery top layer. Simon, have you any
comment on this as I'm assuming you have used the Terre Davis
material. I am reluctant to commit to this shale until I get to the
bottom of what happened. I'm thinking maybe they added too much and
it "set" in the manner of a clay pot leaving an impervious crust.

You can also see the irrigation system pipes emerging from the surface
(behind the fence) which links to a manual sprinkler hose and also to
a vertical hose on the fence which runs to a static sprinkler head.
They installed this system themselves. There are a number of
sprinklers set either on the courts (2 courts in total) or suspended
at the tops of the fence. They do not have a pump system but rely on
mains pressure and no storage tank. They did install their own timing
system. It appears there is considerable inventiveness in this club!

Kate, how are things going with you...any photos?...anybody else with
news? I am hoping to install our nailless lines next week.

John Lord (Peebles TC)

---

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13:36

I have posted a photo of the Edinburgh club (Drummond) scarifier.
This is a motorised mower converted by replacing the cutters with a
board into which scarifying prongs have been hammered.  Before they
used a sled into which nails had been embedded and this was weighted
with shale and manhandled across the court!  This is an interesting
photo as there are a number of features on display.  They have started
the scarifying and the resultant upheaval of the court is evident.  I
visited their courts and saw the degree of disruption at firsthand..it
is somewhat alarming but they assured me that all would be well in the
end. At this stage they will perhaps scarify again then leave to dry
out and for the clumps to separate into finer particles.  Then
powdered red granite will be added and the surface levelled by the
standard method of dragging a ladder across the surface.

This is the club which found the Italian shale (Manto Finale)unusable
due to the formation of a slippery top layer.  Simon, have you any
comment on this as I'm assuming you have used the Terre Davis
material.  I am reluctant to commit to this shale until I get to the
bottom of what happened.  I'm thinking maybe they added too much and
it "set" in the manner of a clay pot leaving an impervious crust.

You can also see the irrigation system pipes emerging from the surface
(behind the fence) which links to a manual sprinkler hose and also to
a vertical hose on the fence which runs to a static sprinkler head.
They installed this system themselves.  There are a number of
sprinklers set either on the courts (2 courts in total) or suspended
at the tops of the fence.  They do not have a pump system but rely on
mains pressure and no storage tank.  They did install their own timing
system.  It appears there is considerable inventiveness in this club!

Kate, how are things going with you...any photos?...anybody else with
news?  I am hoping to install our nailless lines next week.

John Lord  (Peebles TC)

An interesting and comprehensive range of sprinklers and timers are
marketed by Gardena (www.gardena.co.uk).  This company appears to be a
useful source of garden-related systems which could be exploited for
use on tennis courts.  Products range from sprinklers delivering all
manner of spray patterns to hoses and computerised timing devices.

Hello,
I can confirm what Joanne has told you.  I do not know how far afield BOIL
operate.

The contact details are as I have them.

David Garrett

Joanne at Sutton Churches Tennis Club writes:

> Hi,
>
> I'm afraid I don't have the details. Our Grounds Sec. David Garrett
> should know the answers. I'll forward to him but he may not be able
> to reply for a week or so.
>
> I do know that B.O.I.L. installed all the sprinklers, pipework and
> tank, but I think the electric control panel was installed by one of
> our members who runs an electrical company.
>
> I have just done a Google search and found the following contact
> details:-
>
> Boil Irrigation Ltd
> 46 Montford Road
> Sunbury on Thames
> TW16 6EJ
> Middlesex
>
> Contact: David Jones
> Tel: 01932 788301
> Fax: 01932 780437
> Internet: www.boilirrigation.co.uk
>
> The website is currently under construction but there is an email
> address available.
>
> Joanne
>
> --- In ShaleCourts@yahoogroups.com, "Simon at Eccleston Park LTC"
> <sjm980@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joanne
>>
>> Could you tell me about the automatic sprinkler system you have at
>> Sutton Churches?  I see it was installed by B.O.I.L irrigation in
>> 2004, did they supply all the pipes, tanks, sprinklers etc and
> install
>> it?
>>
>> We need a similar system at Eccleston Park, do you have a contact
> name
>> at B.O.I.L I could use?
>>
>> Lastly do you know if they only operate in a certain parts of the
>> country?  Any extra info would be great.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Simon
>>
>
>

I have added 4 pictures to the Photo section to illustrate the setup
of the lines and the Peebles club.
Picture 1 shows the line set up on a Workmate with the steel peg or
plate projecting from a slot at the end of the line.  This would be
hammered into the tube which would be embedded in the court surface.
Picture 2 shows the components again:line, tube, endpiece and peg.
The rigidity of the line in this and the previous photo is obvious.
The slots run along the whole line for some reason and would provide
locations for occasional nailing.
Picture 3 shows the shale/blaes courts at Peebles.  The court material
looks like a normal clay dressing but is spent shale from paraffin
extraction in West Lothian.  Millions of tons are available and anyone
flying into Edinburgh airport will see immense heaps of the stuff on
the western approach. Recently we have used powdered red granite
rather than blaes.  This must be one of the most beautiful club
locations in the UK.
Picture 4 shows the drainage pipes.  These appear to be perforated
plastic pipes.  A drain from the grass bank was discovered running
into the system.  Whether the system fuctions to any significant
degree is uncertain.  The rather coarse nature of the blaes can be
seen (it is rather poor in quality compared to standard clay court
dressing)and also some gravel which was in the foundations at this point.

John Lord