3 Jul 2006, Paul Wendt wrote:
> The series has been delayed by home computer troubles.  Because I have
> continued to think about "all this" and I have spoken with Rick Benner
> again by phone (we both skipped Seattle), the longest of six articles in
> my series, on game logs method and format, needs reconsideration.  But I
> have decided to send the other remaining articles prepared in June.
> Everyone will get a little experience with formal game logs and anyone
> who cares about 1883-1884 WCA and ICA outcomes will be able to read the
> logs, by reference to "clubs and standings" if the abbreviations need
> interpretation.  But there will not be much explicit discussion of game
> logs today.  Part 5 of 6 will be missing.

Sigh.
No, input/output trouble has blocked part 4, too, the game logs.
So everything on game logs per se must wait.  Here is the cover page for
of my little home website.  I have distributed 1-3 and 6. --Paul

--
This spring I phoned Rick Benner to talk about 19th century collegiate
baseball records, especially game logs, which are games, teams, runs at
heart (five data).  He leads the SABR Collegiate Base Ball Committee,
which has focused on identifying the collegiate careers of major
leaguers.  Even for the timespans when particular colleges fielded teams
they have relied heavily on modern athletic departments who commonly
recognize only their own histories.

We believe no one knows much about the [records of many college teams,
  . . . ]  I said that in email to the SABRcollegiate
egroup I would explain the collegiate base ball coverage in Spalding's
Guide and illustrate game logs for some example seasons.  Parts 1-3 here
correspond to the three email articles I distributed before computer
trouble late in June delayed the series and I wrote it up for the web.

1. introduction to Spalding's and college base ball
2. clubs and standings and parks and leagues
3. extended STANDINGS, WCA and ICA, 1883 and 1884
4. basic GAME LOGS, WCA and ICA, 1883 and 1884
5. compiling game logs
6. player records - scope illustrated

Have a good holiday, or end of 4-day holiday.

Paul Wendt

>>
A fortnight ago I phoned Rick Benner to talk about 19th century
collegiate baseball records, especially game logs.  I promised him I
would both explain Spalding's Guide coverage and illustrate game logs in
email to this group. I have written some details in useful tables and
the unknown number of email articles will follow pretty quickly now.
<<

The series has been delayed by home computer troubles.  Because I have
continued to think about "all this" and I have spoken with Rick Benner
again by phone (we both skipped Seattle), the longest of six articles in
my series, on game logs method and format, needs reconsideration.  But I
have decided to send the other remaining articles prepared in June.
Everyone will get a little experience with formal game logs and anyone
who cares about 1883-1884 WCA and ICA outcomes will be able to read the
logs, by reference to "clubs and standings" if the abbreviations need
interpretation.  But there will not be much explicit discussion of game
logs today.  Part 5 of 6 will be missing.

Paul Wendt

21 Jun 2006, Larry Hayes wrote:

> A book on Northwestern University athletics (The Tale of the Wildcats
> by Walter Paulison) mentions some early college baseball leagues.
>  On april 22, 1876 the "College Baseball Association of the Northwest"
> was formed. Members were Northwestern, Racine and the old Chicago
> University.  the Women's Education Association of Chicago had offered
> a silver ball to the college champion of the northwest since 1871.

Thanks, Larry.

    In the Harvard book there aren't any leagues, only Harvard and Yale
--only a slight exaggeration for the 19th century.

    By the way, did women play baseball at midwestern colleges?
Or merely sponsor men's championships?

Clearly a compilation of collegiate "champions" is within the purview of
this research committee.  And it must be more compelling work for some
people than game-level records or even standings.
    The identification of clubs is more fundamental than the standings
(season-level) and game logs (game-level) data featured in my articles.
Consider the table that I called Teams and Homes[cities not parks] in
the clubs and standings article.  The identification of leagues is more
fundamental than the standings or championships.
    It is reasonable to gather information about clubs and leagues and put
it in order.  Rick Benner's procedure has been to grow outward and
backward from NCAA baseball clubs.  Secondary sources on the olden days
are a source of data that should be mined, probably just be mined in
order to compile champions and learn a sketchy history of leagues ahead
of the pace of game-level research.
    Ultimately, I am certain, much of what we learn about collegiate
clubs, including name and location (Teams and Homes) will come from
game-level research.

Paul Wendt

[The actual Game Logs appear in the next and last "Coverage" article.
I missed a day with computer troubles.]

20 Jun 2006, Paul Wendt wrote
in "Coverage in Spalding's - clubs and standings"

> Spalding's Base Ball Guide 1884 and 1885 covers the Western Collegiate
> (WCA) and Inter-Collegiate (ICA) Base Ball Associations in two short
> chapters or sections. Inside each section it names the clubs and gives
> final standings.  Here is that data for the WCA only, presented in a way
> that hints how a database deftly uses abbreviations and multiple tables.

Folks,
Beside methodology, some in this group may be interested in the outcomes
of the four 1883-1884 collegiate league-seasons covered by Spalding's.

Therefore,
Here are extended standings for each, showing the home, visitor, and
neutral W-L records and the runs records for all WCA teams.

All these elements and team-v-team variations on same can be generated
automatically from a complete game log.  For example, see the retrosheet
webpages for each major league season.
      http://retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Y_1884.htm (1884, pick a club)
The Retrosheet format is best if there is much interest in generating
home and away elements as well as full-season ones.

Although extended in scope, these standings remain simple because every
game was played to a W-L decision.

Paul Wendt


----------------------------
Western or Northwestern CBBA, 1883-1884
----------------------------

          W       L       Club            home    visitor Runs    oRuns
WCA 1883
          6       0       Northwestern    3-0     3-0     78      41
          4       2       Wisconsin       2-1     2-1     71      35
          1       5       Racine          1-2     0-3     37      83
          1       5       Beloit          1-2     0-3     34      61
           12 games

The 1883 summary must be typical of small, poorly balanced leagues.


          W       L       Club            home    visitor Runs    oRuns
WCA 1884
          5       1       Wisconsin       3-0     2-1     51      45
          4       2       Racine          2-1     2-1     60      43
          2       4       Northwestern    0-3     2-1     71      57
          1       5       Beloit          0-3     1-2     31      68
           12 games

By winning the two biggest blowouts, at Racine and Beloit, but losing
its four other games closely, Northwestern generated unusual home-away
and unusual runs record for the association in 1884.  Racine beat
Wisconsin badly at home, 19-8, but lost lost a close one in Madison,
4-3, which amplified the unusual runs record.

----------------------------------------
Inter-Collegiate or American College BBA, 1883-1884
----------------------------------------

          W       L       Club            home    visitor neutral
ICA 1883
          7       1       Yale            3-0     3-0     1-1
          6       2       Princeton       2-0     2-0     2-2
          4       4       Amherst         2-1     1-2     1-1
          2       6       Harvard         2-2     0-4     -
          1       7       Brown           1-3     0-4     -
           20 games

Dartmouth missed this season of the otherwise stable six-team
association.  Spalding's 1885 is sympathetic to Dartmouth against
Harvard especially.  The 1884 record suggests that the issue was refusal
of other teams to visit Dartmouth.
    Amherst and Yale both played Princeton twice in New York; all other
pairs of clubs played twice home-and-home.


          W       L       Club            home    visitor neutral
ICA 1884
          9       2       Yale            4-1     2-1     3-0
          8       3       Harvard         5-1     3-1     0-1
          6       4       Amherst         3-2     3-2     -
          5       5       Brown           3-2     2-3     -
          2       8       Princeton       2-3     0-3     0-2
          1       9       Dartmouth       0-2     1-7     -
           31 games

Dartmouth was readmitted for 1884 after agreeing to visit Harvard, Yale,
and Princeton twice each, playing home-and-home only with Brown and
Amherst.
    Yale defeated Harvard in the final game, June 27 at Brooklyn,
evidently a playoff for the championship, four in a row for Yale.
Harvard beat Yale twice but also lost two games to the other strong
teams while Yale did not.

A book on Northwestern University athletics (The Tale
of the Wildcats  by Walter Paulison) mentions some
early college baseball leagues.  On april 22, 1876 the
"College Baseball Association of the Northwest" was
formed. Members were Northwestern, Racine and the old
Chicago University.  the Women's Education Association
of Chicago had offered a silver ball to the college
champion of the northwest since 1871.

champions
1871 Racine
1872 Racine
1873 Unknown
1874 Racine
1875 Spring-Chicago University
      Fall- Northwestern
1876 Chicago Univ
1877 Racine (Lake Forest joined this year)
1878 unknown
1879 Chicago Univ, Northwestern both W3 L1
1880 league folded after Northwestern withdrew
1881 no league

1882 Western College Baseball Association formed with
Michigan, Racine, Wisconsin, and Northwestern.

Champions
1882 Michigan W6 L0
1883 Northwestern W6 L0 Beloit replaced Michigan
1884 unknown
1885 unknown
1886 unknown
1887 unknown
1888 lake forest joined
1889 racine dropped out
1889 Northwestern champion
1890 Wisconsin champion
1891 Northwestern champion
1892 unknown, Illinios replaced wisconsin
1893 Intercollegiate Athletic association formed by
Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin and northwestern.  the
league lasted one year.

The eastern league 1880-1888 was called the American
College Baseball Association in Outing Magazine 1889
article.

Charles Hayes



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Folks,
Quoting the first paragraph from part one:
>>
    A fortnight ago I phoned Rick Benner to talk about 19th century
collegiate baseball records, especially game logs.  I promised him I
would both explain Spalding's Guide coverage and illustrate game logs in
email to this group. I have written some details in useful tables and
the unknown number of email articles will follow pretty quickly now.
<<

Spalding's Base Ball Guide 1884 and 1885 covers the Western Collegiate
(WCA) and Inter-Collegiate (ICA) Base Ball Associations in two short
chapters or sections. Inside each section it names the clubs and gives
final standings.  Here is that data for the WCA only, presented in a way
that hints how a database deftly uses abbreviations and multiple tables.

CLUBS AND LEAGUES
In its prose history of the WCA, Spalding's 1885 identifies the four
members for each season 1882-1884.  That is five clubs in all because
Beloit replaced Michigan in 1883.  In this case, where the club names
are names of colleges and universities, we know their city and state
"homes" from other sources but that information must commonly be
gathered from the baseball reports.  I don't know any park or field
names, which might change over time in a given home city, so I have used
a city abbreviation to *suggest* a more complete example.

Teams and Homes [for WCA 1882-1884 only]

          Team    Club                    City            State   Site
          nwu     Northwestern University Evanston        IL      eva
          rac     Racine College          Racine          WI      rac
          umi     University of Michigan  Ann Arbor       MI      ann
          uwi     University of Wisconsin Madison         WI      mad
          bel     Beloit College          Beloit          WI      bel

Leagues [for WCA 1882-1884 only]

          League  Year    Team
          WCA     1883    bel
          WCA     1884    bel
          WCA     1882    nwu
          WCA     1883    nwu
          WCA     1884    nwu
          WCA     1882    rac
          WCA     1883    rac
          WCA     1884    rac
          WCA     1882    umi
          WCA     1882    uwi
          WCA     1883    uwi
          WCA     1884    uwi

These two tables jointly provide a lot of information about each
league-season without repeating long club names or city-state data.
A table such as this one for WCA 1883 is implied for every season.

WCA 1883
          Team    Club                    City            State   Site
          rac     Racine College          Racine          WI      rac
          uwi     University of Wisconsin Madison         WI      mad
          nwu     Northwestern University Evanston        IL      eva
          bel     Beloit College          Beloit          WI      bel

The abbreviations save time and clerical error in game logs, which are
typically much bigger tables.


STANDINGS
The simplest final standings identify each team and its numbers of wins
and losses during a season.  That does cover the basics if every game is
played to a W-L decision, as in the WCA 1883 or 1884.

          Team    W       L
WCA 1883
          nwu     6       0
          uwi     4       2
          rac     1       5
          bel     1       5
WCA 1884
          uwi     5       1
          rac     4       2
          nwu     2       4
          bel     1       5

Correct final standings for a league-season can be derived from correct
and complete game logs for all the teams but the standings are redundant
only when everything is correct.  Published standings are useful during
the process, and the process may never end.

In fact, Spalding's commonly published final standings in team-vs-team
format and WCA 1884 is one instance.

WCA 1884
                  uwi     rac     nwu     bel     W       L       GP
          uwi     ...     1       2       2       5       1       6
          rac     1       ...     1       2       4       2       6
          nwu     0       1       ...     1       2       4       6
          bel     0       0       1       ...     1       5       6

          L       1       2       4       5       12


P/\/ \/\/t

Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)

Folks,

A fortnight ago I phoned Rick Benner to talk about 19th century
collegiate baseball records, especially game logs.  I promised him I
would both explain Spalding's Guide coverage and illustrate game logs in
email to this group. I have written some details in useful tables and
the unknown number of email articles will follow pretty quickly now.

GAME LOGS.  I will not get to game logs in this article.  Let me say
merely that a simple game log is a list of records, one for each game,
providing the date, two team names or other identifiers and two scores
in runs.  Given a league, which is essentially a group of teams in one
season, a complete simple game log for the league is sufficient to
reconstruct daily league standings (with runs scored and allowed)
throughout the season.  Indeed, the Retrosheet web encyclopedia gives
for every major league season from 1871 daily standings derived from
game logs.

COLLEGE BASEBALL in SPALDING'S GUIDE 1883-1884
   Spalding's Official Base Ball Guide (official for the National League)
includes coverage of two collegiate base ball associations, the Western
or Northwestern and the Inter-Collegiate or American, in both 1884 and
1885, the only editions I have checked for collegiate base ball. There
is no other coverage of college baseball. The official association names
are unclear to me.  For short I will call them the Western or WCA and
the Inter/-Collegiate or ICA.

Each of the four articles features the immediately preceding season with
game results for teams, season batting and fielding records for players.
Spalding's 1885 also covers the spring 1884 annual meeting of the ICA.

Neither collegiate association was new in 1883 but the Western was new
in 1882. Spalding's 1885 says "the first year saw only half-organized,
half-disciplined nines in the field" and says that Michigan did not lose
a game without even giving a count.  Apparently to Spalding's, it
achieved some new formality in 1883.  There were four clubs in the
Western each year: Michigan (strongest), Northwestern, Wisconsin, and
Racine in 1882; Northwestern, Wisconsin, Racine, and Beloit in 1883 and
1884.  The University of Michigan used professional players and withdrew
when the Western passed restrictions for 1883, replaced by Beloit
College.

The Inter-Collegiate was established 6 December 1879, says Spalding's
1885 before summarizing each season with a prose paragraph and a table
of standings in team-vs-team format.  Six colleges clubs were
represented but "the convention voted to exclude college players from
their names who participated in professional club teams" so Yale
ultimately withdrew.  Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth, Harvard, and Amherst
played a double round robin, essentially home and home, and finished in
that order with W-L records 6-2 to 2-6.  The season continued to be a
home and home double round robin. Yale re-entered in 1881 and won four
successive pennants, two evidently in playoffs.  The only other change
in membership was the absence of Dartmouth during 1883 only.

PLAYER DATA
In this series I will not cover the player data in any detail but here
is an account of scope that omits what is redundant because it is
literally repeated or it can be derived.

WCA 1883
    For 38 players in one list ordered by batting average, who played at
least 3 of 6 games (mainly 6 of 6):
    SURNAME,
    CLUB,
    POSITIONS,
    rank in batting,
   -games played,
   -base-hits,
   -batting average,
   -runs
    runs per game,
   -fielding average,
    rank in fielding.
That is five independent numerical data(-).  Some of the fielding
averages are impossible in only ten games: .999, .998.
    For five players in a second list ordered by batting average, who
played 1 or 2 games, the same data

WCA 1884
    For 36 players in one list ordered by batting average, who played at
least 3 of 6 games (mainly 6 of 6):
   : surname, positions, club, games, batting avg, fielding avg, fielding rank
That is three independent numerical data.
    For 9 players in a second list ordered by batting average, who played
1 or 2 of 6 games, the same data.


ICA 1883
    For 10 to 12 players on each of five teams, which may be all players,
grouped by team:
   : surname, positions, games by position, at bats, runs, batting avg, fielding
avg
That is five independent numerical data for everyone listed at only one
fielding position.
    For each team as a whole, at the bottom of each table, the same data.

ICA 1884
    For precisely nine players on each of six teams, who played at least 9
of 11 games (for playoff participants Yale and Harvard) down to 6 of 10
games (two players), grouped by team:
   : surname, positions, games played, batting avg, fielding avg
That is three independent numerical data.
    For each team, batting and fielding averages, ranks by batting and
fielding average, and the average of batting and fielding averages(!).
That is two independent numerical data beyond the W-L records and runs
scored-allowed that are in the game results.

P/\/ \/\/t

Paul Wendt, Watertown MA, USA <pgw@...>
Chair, 19th Century Committee, SABR
Owner-Administrator, 19cBB (egroup at Yahoo)

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/college/news/261154.html



Nevada Pitcher Dies From Self-Inflicted Gunshot

By Baseball America Staff

April 27, 2006

Nevada freshman lefthander Steve Masten died Tuesday from a gunshot wound
that police have said was self-inflicted.



Deputies from the Washoe County Sheriff's Office responded to a call to
Masten's Spanish Springs home in suburban Reno on Monday, and found that he
had been shot. Masten, 18, died a day later at Washoe Medical Center in
Reno, and investigators determined he had shot himself.



For the full article, click the above link.



Rod Nelson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12270540/from/ET



Winfield, Dedeaux among 10 elected to College Baseball Hall of Fame



By DENNIS WASZAK Jr.

Associated Press Sports

April 26, 2006



Dave Winfield is a Hall of Famer again, this time for his pitching and
slugging excellence back when he was the big man on campus.



The former University of Minnesota star, enshrined in Cooperstown after even
greater success in the major leagues, was among 10 former players and
coaches elected Wednesday as the College Baseball Hall of Fame's inaugural
class.





For the full story, click on the above link.



Rod Nelson







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jim,

I'm terribly sorry for this extremely late reply to your email. Don't know
where else I would have received this info.

Your message was received with great interest.  Yingling was a fascinating
character. Would like to look at his career a little more in depth at some
point.

Would still love seeing that image of Lefty Webb from the Tip Top set.

Hope you've had a chance to take a look at the latest Almanac.

Thanks, Jim.

rex



Rex Hamann
14201 Crosstown Blvd. NW
Andover, Minnesota   55304

The American Association Almanac
A Baseball History Journal (1902-1952)
www.AmericanAssociationAlmanac.com
Subscriptions available...Be the first on your block!



----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jim Mogan" <jmogan1@...>
Reply-To: SABRcollegiate@yahoogroups.com
To: <SABRcollegiate@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SABRcollegiate] Two Ohio Colleges?
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:07:28 -0400




Hello Rex.

There was a Lebanon U in Lebanon Ohio that went bankrupt in 1917 and closed
according to the Warren County Historical society.

It was originally chartered in 1855 as Southwestern State Normal School. In
1870 the name was changed to National Normal School and in 1881 became
National Normal University. The name officially changed to Lebanon
University in 1907. Yingling would have been about 17 years old in
1907.....college age.

Upon bankruptcy the school actually merged with now Wilmington College in
Wilmington, Ohio....which is about 20 miles or so from Lebanon. Wonder if
Wilmington College would have records of Lebanon U students???



Yingling (Earl) was pictured on one baseball card that I know of.....a 1917
E135 Candy card of PCL players. I don't have the minor league records of
Yingling but according to Baseball Reference he was not in the majors in
1917 yet he was before 1917 and after. As a hobby I collect sportscards,
photos, postcards (any images) of southern Ohio players. Yingling is from
Chillicothe about 20 miles down the road from me.



I could find nothing on West Ohio University.

Hope this helps.



Jim Mogan

Circleville, Ohio





----- Original Message -----

  From: REX Hamann

  To: SABRcollegiate@yahoogroups.com

  Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 4:55 PM

  Subject: [SABRcollegiate] Two Ohio Colleges?





  Never thought I'd be sending two messages to my new group in one day, but

  here goes:



  I'm looking a player file card sent to me by Steve Gietschier at the

  Sporting News for a pitcher  named Earl Yingling out of Chillicothe, Ohio.



  The first entry describing his player activity it lists "Lebanon Univ. and

  West Ohio Univ. Dayton 1907-09.



  Does anyone know if there actually was a Lebanon University (would have
been

  an awfully small town, just south of Dayton) or what college "West Ohio

  Univ. Dayton" may have morphed into, if anything?



  Thank you.





  Rex Hamann

  14201 Crosstown Blvd. NW

  Andover, Minnesota   55304



  The American Association Almanac

  A Baseball History Journal (1902-1952)

  www.AmericanAssociationAlmanac.com

  Subscriptions available...Be the first on your block!









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    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




     Visit your group "SABRcollegiate" on the web.
 
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Hello Rex.
There was a Lebanon U in Lebanon Ohio that went bankrupt in 1917 and closed
according to the Warren County Historical society.
It was originally chartered in 1855 as Southwestern State Normal School. In 1870
the name was changed to National Normal School and in 1881 became National
Normal University. The name officially changed to Lebanon University in 1907.
Yingling would have been about 17 years old in 1907.....college age.
Upon bankruptcy the school actually merged with now Wilmington College in
Wilmington, Ohio....which is about 20 miles or so from Lebanon. Wonder if
Wilmington College would have records of Lebanon U students???

Yingling (Earl) was pictured on one baseball card that I know of.....a 1917 E135
Candy card of PCL players. I don't have the minor league records of Yingling but
according to Baseball Reference he was not in the majors in 1917 yet he was
before 1917 and after. As a hobby I collect sportscards, photos, postcards (any
images) of southern Ohio players. Yingling is from Chillicothe about 20 miles
down the road from me.

I could find nothing on West Ohio University.
Hope this helps.

Jim Mogan
Circleville, Ohio


----- Original Message -----
   From: REX Hamann
   To: SABRcollegiate@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 4:55 PM
   Subject: [SABRcollegiate] Two Ohio Colleges?


   Never thought I'd be sending two messages to my new group in one day, but
   here goes:

   I'm looking a player file card sent to me by Steve Gietschier at the
   Sporting News for a pitcher  named Earl Yingling out of Chillicothe, Ohio.

   The first entry describing his player activity it lists "Lebanon Univ. and
   West Ohio Univ. Dayton 1907-09.

   Does anyone know if there actually was a Lebanon University (would have been
   an awfully small town, just south of Dayton) or what college "West Ohio
   Univ. Dayton" may have morphed into, if anything?

   Thank you.


   Rex Hamann
   14201 Crosstown Blvd. NW
   Andover, Minnesota   55304

   The American Association Almanac
   A Baseball History Journal (1902-1952)
   www.AmericanAssociationAlmanac.com
   Subscriptions available...Be the first on your block!




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

     a..  Visit your group "SABRcollegiate" on the web.

     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      SABRcollegiate-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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   No virus found in this incoming message.
   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
   Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/305 - Release Date: 4/8/2006


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, Rod.

Have a great weekend.

rex



Rex Hamann
14201 Crosstown Blvd. NW
Andover, Minnesota   55304

The American Association Almanac
A Baseball History Journal (1902-1952)
www.AmericanAssociationAlmanac.com
Subscriptions available...Be the first on your block!



----Original Message Follows----
From: "Rod Nelson" <rnelson@...>
Reply-To: SABRcollegiate@yahoogroups.com
To: <SABRcollegiate@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [SABRcollegiate] Billy Reed at Notre Dame
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:07:05 -0400




Rex - Best source for this info is former SABR member Cappy Gagnon at:

Gagnon.2@...







Rod Nelson



Research Services Manager



www.sabr.org <http://www.sabr.org/> 











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]












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Never thought I'd be sending two messages to my new group in one day, but
here goes:

I'm looking a player file card sent to me by Steve Gietschier at the
Sporting News for a pitcher  named Earl Yingling out of Chillicothe, Ohio.

The first entry describing his player activity it lists "Lebanon Univ. and
West Ohio Univ. Dayton 1907-09.

Does anyone know if there actually was a Lebanon University (would have been
an awfully small town, just south of Dayton) or what college "West Ohio
Univ. Dayton" may have morphed into, if anything?

Thank you.


Rex Hamann
14201 Crosstown Blvd. NW
Andover, Minnesota   55304

The American Association Almanac
A Baseball History Journal (1902-1952)
www.AmericanAssociationAlmanac.com
Subscriptions available...Be the first on your block!

Rex - Best source for this info is former SABR member Cappy Gagnon at:
Gagnon.2@...



Rod Nelson

Research Services Manager

www.sabr.org <http://www.sabr.org/>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings,

This is my first posting to the Collegiate SABR e-list.

I'm interested in finding Billy Reed's collegiate record at Notre Dame.
According to baseball-reference.com, he played ball there from 1944-48.

Is anyone familiar with a link/contact person who might be able to help me
find this info?

Thanks!


Rex Hamann
14201 Crosstown Blvd. NW
Andover, Minnesota   55304

The American Association Almanac
A Baseball History Journal (1902-1952)
www.AmericanAssociationAlmanac.com
Subscriptions available...Be the first on your block!

In a message dated 11/17/2005 6:55:04 P.M. MST,  <pgw02472@...> writes:

File        :  /BBM2104.yaletraining.pdf
Uploaded by : pgw02472  <pgw02472@...>
Description : "Spring Training for College  Baseball Clubs" by J.W. Cutler,
BBMag 1921-04

You can access this file  at the  URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SABRcollegiate/files/BBM2104.yaletraining.pdf



Mr. Cutler should be ashamed of himself.  The manager of the Yale team
featured in his 1921 Baseball Magazine article is erroneously and  repeatedly
identified as "WILLIAM LANDER, former Brown [University] star and  ex-Giant."
Clearly he is referring to Billy Lauder.

_http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/laudebi01.shtml_
(http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/laudebi01.shtml)
_http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/L/Lauder_Billy.stm
_
(http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/L/Lauder_Billy.stm)
_http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Plaudb101.htm_
(http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/Plaudb101.htm)

From Bill Lee's Baseball Necrology, p229
Billy Lauder
5 Years Infielder
Born 23 Feb 1874 New York City NY
Died 20 May 1933 at his home in Norwalk CT
Norwalk Cemetery Norwalk CT
He coached college baseball 15 years at Brown, Yale, Columbia and Williams
before he was a coach and scout two years for the White Sox. He then went into
the soap business in New York City. Died suddenly from heart failure.

I have no other information regarding his scouting career, but I find  no
Brown or Yale grads on White Sox rosters in the 1910's thru 1920's that
theoretically might have been signed by Lauder, with the lone possible 
exception of
Barney Reilly.
(_http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reillba01.shtml_
(http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reillba01.shtml)

As for Columbia, we do know that Charles Comiskey traded for Eddie Collins,
but that was after his professional career had been well established with
Connie  Mack's Athletics.  Art Smith appeared in three games for the Chisox in
1932, and is therefore another possibility.

I look forward to Rick Benner's book on collegiate coaches which may help  me
identify other such connections for my Scouts committee database project.

Rod Nelson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A moment ago at sabrcollegiate Files, I posted "Spring Training for
College Baseball Clubs" from Baseball Magazine, April 1921.

"Yale University in sending her team to a permanent training camp in
the south, has inaugurated a new phase of intercollegiate baseball.
Never before has any university established a site for spring quarters
. . .
  . . . [Yale plans to] remain at Macon, Ga., for a period of ten days
where the team will meet in in daily contests with southern college
nines and several major league clubs."

That is about 10% of the one-page article, 341 KB in pdf format.

Paul Wendt

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the SABRcollegiate
group.

   File        : /BBM2104.yaletraining.pdf
   Uploaded by : pgw02472 <pgw02472@...>
   Description : "Spring Training for College Baseball Clubs" by J.W. Cutler,
BBMag 1921-04

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SABRcollegiate/files/BBM2104.yaletraining.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

pgw02472 <pgw02472@...>

Part of the Collegiate BB database is reflected on our website including
the following portion of the Cornell page.
      http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/cornell.htm
>>
Name History:
Cornell University  1868-date

Baseball Team History:
1869-78, 1880-date

Major League Players
Name  Major League Debut
John H. Humphries  7/7/1883
Franklin W. Olin  7/4/1884
<<

That is, Olin played at Cornell and first played in the majors 7/4/1884.
The page does not show when Olin played at or attended Cornell.


Baseball-reference presents collegiate data attributed to this committee
including this page for Cornell.
      http://www.baseball-reference.com/schools/cornell.shtml
>>
Cornell University (Big Red), 11 players
Ithaca, NY

Collegiate Data (about) courtesy SABR's Collegiate Committee. They will
welcome all corrections to their data. View their page for this school.

   Player              From  To    G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB
SO    BA   OBP   SLG   SB   CS Years Attnd
+-------------------+---------+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-\
----+-----+-----+----+---+-----------+
   Frank Olin          1884-1885   49   177   29   56   4   2   1    0
12    0  .316  .363  .379    0   0   1882-1884
<<

That is, Olin played in the majors 1884-1885 and attended Cornell
1882-1884.
Is this committee the source of years attended data?


Anyway, Reed Howard shows Olin captain of the Cornell team in 1885,
which probably implies a correction at baseball-reference and here.

Paul Wendt

In a message dated 5/12/2005 9:34:02 A.M. MDT, mike.gustafson@...  writes:

Are you  thinking of something like  this?

http://www.techhecklers.com/polls.htm

Or this, with RPI  estimations?

http://www.boydsworld.com/baseball/rpi/currentrpi.html



Thanks Mike.

RN


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_http://www.ncaasports.com/baseball/mens/polls/_
(http://www.ncaasports.com/baseball/mens/polls/)

I see the Baseball America College Top 25 on this site, but not the NCAA's
own rankings for Division I.  Where else can I find that info, and does it
differ significantly?

Rod Nelson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Per Minor League Stars - Volume 3 p108, Frederick Wm Muller  attended  the U
of California.

RN


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm trying to get some source data, as there's not a whole lot out there
and easily accessible.  It's been on the list of things I'd like to look
at for a while now.

Collegiate Baseball has their preseason polls since 1999 available on
their website
(http://www.baseballnews.com/polls/divI/archives/index.htm).  In those
six years, the pre-season #1 team has never won the College World
Series.  The highest ranked team to win the CWS was Rice in 2003
(preseason #4).  The lowest ranked team to win the CWS was Texas in 2002
(preseason #15).

I'll write something up online or in the newsletter if I can find enough
data to do a reasonable study.

--Jeremy Mills
    jwmills@...

SABRscouts@... wrote:

> Has anyone here researched the validity of preseason polls; ie which
> is the
> better predictor when looking back at season's end, etc??  Below are
> links to
> the three biggest.
>
> Rod Nelson
>
>
> Baseball America Top 25
> http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/leagues/NCAA/top25.html
>
> Sports Weekly/ESPN Top 25
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/baseball/usatpoll.htm
>
> Collegiate Baseball Top 30
> http://www.baseballnews.com/polls/divI/currentpolldivI.htm
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SABRcollegiate/
>
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>       SABRcollegiate-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:SABRcollegiate-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Has anyone here researched the validity of preseason polls; ie which is the
better predictor when looking back at season's end, etc??  Below are links to
the three biggest.

Rod Nelson


Baseball America Top 25
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/leagues/NCAA/top25.html

Sports Weekly/ESPN Top 25
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/baseball/usatpoll.htm

Collegiate Baseball Top 30
http://www.baseballnews.com/polls/divI/currentpolldivI.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I pointed to the relavant web pages and a recent article at:
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/109825501150320.xml
http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/ithacany.htm
http://www.ithaca.edu/bombers/base/

I don't see his name on the  website, but the following news story makes a
reference to him attending  Ithaca before beginning his pro baseball  career.
My records indicate  that he was signed as a non-drafted  amateur free agent
by the Braves in  1966.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In a message dated 10/21/2004,  jwmills@... replied:

Earl attended Ithaca College during the offseason, but did not play  baseball
while there.  According to Rick, he reported to the Braves late --  after the
Spring Semester ended.

Are you sure that he was an undrafted  free agent?  I've seen the following
entry for him (source is  TheBaseballCube.com): Selected by Milwaukee Braves in
1st Round (6th Overall) of  1965 amateur draft. (Aug-Leg Phase)

--Jeremy Mills
Co-Chairman,  SABR Collegiate Committee
jwmills@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rod again:
So, rather than a correction on the Collegiate database, it appears that
it's the official transactions data that should be revised.  I'll buy that  on
his collegiate experience, and it probably explains the descrepancy in
information regarding that first draft. It would seem that Williams was 
selected (as
a pitcher) but did not sign, chosing to attend school for a year  and later
signing with John "Honey" Russell for the Braves.  It's  likely that he did so
before the 1966 June draft while the Braves still owned  his draft rights.

His name is not listed in W.C.  Madden's "Baseball's First-Year Player Draft"
McFarland 2001 on pg 298, as it  probably should.  Per Tom Ruane, Retrosheet
Transactions guru, Williams was  signed in 1966, and the database doesn't list
a record  for the Drafted-Not Signed transaction, but neither does it list
him  as a (late) signing from the 1965 draft.   The draft rules in 1966  allowed
for a special secondary phase offering teams those players who had been
previously selected in the draft, but hadn't signed and were newly  eligible. My
guess is that he came to terms before that draft.  The  following year brought
a change in the rules for the regular phase, in that  teams could no longer
draft an undergraduate players (freshman or sophomore)  from a four-year
university.

Thanks for your time.

Rod Nelson

Rod:

Earl attended Ithaca College during the offseason, but did not play baseball
while there.  According to Rick, he reported to the Braves late -- after the
Spring Semester ended.

Are you sure that he was an undrafted free agent?  I've seen the following entry
for him (source is TheBaseballCube.com): Selected by Milwaukee Braves in 1st
Round (6th Overall) of 1965 amateur draft. (Aug-Leg Phase)

--Jeremy Mills
   Co-Chairman, SABR Collegiate Committee
   jwmills@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rick - Jeremy,
I don't see his name on the website, but the following news story makes a
reference to him attending Ithaca before beginning his pro baseball  career.  My
records indicate that he was signed as a non-drafted  amateur free agent by
the Braves in 1966.

Rod Nelson

Ithaca College
_http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/ithacany.htm_
(http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/ithacany.htm)

_http://www.ithaca.edu/bombers/base/_ (http://www.ithaca.edu/bombers/base/)

_http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/109825501150320.xml
_
(http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/109825501150320.xml)

It seems that they have changed their name again since then, as the
current website is for Mid-America Christian University
(http://www.macu.edu/).

Regardless, it's clearly a different school from SWOSU.  Good work!

--Jeremy Mills
   jwmills@...

--- In SABRcollegiate@yahoogroups.com, "Gustafson, Mike"
<mike.gustafson@t...> wrote:
>
> I'm new to this list but I asked an OKC native friend of mine about
> "Oklahoma City Southwestern College" and he responded with this.
>
> "It was a small Christian school that has since changed its name to
> Mid-American Bible college."
>
> Hope that helps...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SABRscouts@a... [mailto:SABRscouts@a...]
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:12 AM
> To: SABRCollegiate@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: SABRCollege@a...
> Subject: [SABRcollegiate] Steve Christmas
>
>
> _http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/swoklahoma.htm_
> (http://www.ncaa-
baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/swoklahoma.htm)
>
> The database shows that his participation at the above  linked
> institution in Weatherford, OK is unconfirmed.  I believe  he went
to
> another school with a similar name.
>
> Steve Christmas responded to a 2002 Scouts Committee questionnaire
that
> he was signed as an undrafted free agent at age 19 on 2/13/77 by
> Cincinnati Reds scouts Hersh Freeman and George Zuraw out of
Oklahoma
> City  Southwestern College (OK). I'm not finding a homepage  for
such a
> school, although Google does turn up numerous references to a
school by
> this name that apparently did compete in baseball
intercollegiately.
>
> There may or may not be a connection (name change?) to Southwestern
> Christian University in Bethany, OK _www.swcu.edu_
(http://www.swcu.edu)
> , I just can't say.
>
> Rod Nelson

I'm new to this list but I asked an OKC native friend of mine about
"Oklahoma City Southwestern College" and he responded with this.

"It was a small Christian school that has since changed its name to
Mid-American Bible college."

Hope that helps...

-----Original Message-----
From: SABRscouts@... [mailto:SABRscouts@...]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:12 AM
To: SABRCollegiate@yahoogroups.com
Cc: SABRCollege@...
Subject: [SABRcollegiate] Steve Christmas


_http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/swoklahoma.htm_
(http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/swoklahoma.htm)

The database shows that his participation at the above  linked
institution in Weatherford, OK is unconfirmed.  I believe  he went to
another school with a similar name.

Steve Christmas responded to a 2002 Scouts Committee questionnaire that
he was signed as an undrafted free agent at age 19 on 2/13/77 by
Cincinnati Reds scouts Hersh Freeman and George Zuraw out of Oklahoma
City  Southwestern College (OK). I'm not finding a homepage  for such a
school, although Google does turn up numerous references to a  school by
this name that apparently did compete in baseball intercollegiately.

There may or may not be a connection (name change?) to Southwestern
Christian University in Bethany, OK _www.swcu.edu_ (http://www.swcu.edu)
, I just can't say.

Rod Nelson

_http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/swoklahoma.htm_
(http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/sabr/database/schools/swoklahoma.htm)

The database shows that his participation at the above  linked institution in
Weatherford, OK is unconfirmed.  I believe  he went to another school with a
similar name.

Steve Christmas responded to a 2002 Scouts Committee questionnaire that he
was signed as an undrafted free agent at age 19 on 2/13/77 by Cincinnati Reds
scouts Hersh Freeman and George Zuraw out of Oklahoma City  Southwestern
College (OK). I'm not finding a homepage  for such a school, although Google
does
turn up numerous references to a  school by this name that apparently did
compete in baseball intercollegiately.

There may or may not be a connection (name change?) to Southwestern
Christian University in Bethany, OK _www.swcu.edu_ (http://www.swcu.edu) , I
just
can't say.

Rod Nelson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]