Scaffolding Collapses At Fenway Park

#133 From: Jeff Suntala <sun@...>
Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:14 pm
Subject: Re: Baltimore Union Prk sunbobular
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Bruce answered this himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Park

make sure you double click on that image. There's a slightly larger
version of it. Nice logos on the wall!!

On Nov 22, 2005, at 4:58 PM, Jeff Suntala wrote:

> My friend Bruce Orser dug this Baltimore ballpark up in the Sanborn
> maps that are available online for another week.  Pretty neat stuff.
> Anyone know anything about this park?
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> <baltunion copy.jpg>

#132 From: Jeff Suntala <sun@...>
Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:58 pm
Subject: Baltimore Union Prk sunbobular
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My friend Bruce Orser dug this Baltimore ballpark up in the Sanborn
maps that are available online for another week.  Pretty neat stuff.
Anyone know anything about this park?

#131 From: "Paul Wendt" <pgw@...>
Date: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:13 pm
Subject: Re: Bennett Park Detroit pgw02472
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I have posted copies of some Detroit News baseball coverage related to
the enlargement and renovation of Bennett Park in April 1910.
     http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/det010410.bennett.pdf
     http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/det010425.opening.pdf

Pages one and two of the second file is two copies of a pretty
drawing, "The American League Season Opening at Bennett Park Today"
(one day late, postponed by rain yesterday).  The new seats and
benches were all in place but there was no roof yet on the grandstand
extension.  See the uprights behind third base.

Paul Wendt

#130 From: "rselter" <rselter@...>
Date: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:27 am
Subject: Bennett Park Detroit rmselter
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The SABR trial subscription to the Sanborn Fire Insurance maps has permitted the reworking of the configurations and dimensions for Detroit’s first major league ballpark-Bennett Park. The revised History of Bennett Park follows.

A History of Bennett Park - Detroit’s First ML Ballpark

By Ron Selter (Revised November 2005)

Bennett Park was named for Charlie Bennett, a popular catcher with Detroit’s NL team for eight seasons (1881-88), who lost both legs in a railway accident in 1894. The park, which came to be called Charlie Bennett’s Park, or simply Bennett Park, opened in 1896. It was the home field of the Western League Detroit Wolverines (also known as the Tigers) for 1896-99. In 1900 the Western League was renamed the American League and the league continued to use Bennett Park for its only minor league season. Major league baseball returned to Detroit in 1901 with the debut of the new and now major league American League. The Tigers on Opening Day sent the overflow crowd home happy that day with a memorable 10 run rally in the bottom of the 9th inning to defeat Milwaukee 14-13. The Tigers led by Ty Cobb and Sam Crawford won three consecutive pennants, 1907-09, and Bennett Park hosted the World Series in those years. Bennett Park was built of wood, but unlike many of the other contemporary wooden ballparks-it never burned. The park was demolished after the 1911 season to make way for Navin Field

The park was located at the Northwest corner of Michigan and Trumbull Avenues, in the city of Detroit and not far from downtown. When Bennett Park was built in 1896 the area was not highly developed, as Detroit in the late 19^th Century was not yet a major U.S. city. The park site, when Bennett Park was built in 1896, was in a semi-rural area and was not large–consisting of a land plat of 4.2 acres. By comparison, other Deadball era ballparks, for which the land plat size is known, occupied sites ranging from 5.7 acres (Ebbets Field-Brooklyn) to 9.6 acres (Hilltop Park-New York). Bennett Park when opened in 1896 had a seating capacity of around 5000. Total capacity was expanded to accommodate 8500 fans for the 1901 AL season. All capacity figures refer to permanent seating-temporary outfield bleachers were added for each of the 1907-09 World Series. The stands were modified and seating expanded a number of times after 1901. RF bleachers were added for the 1908 season, the main grandstand was expanded and both foul line bleachers were extended to about the foul poles at the same time. Additional bleachers were built for the 1910 season in LF, and after this last expansion, seating capacity reached 14,000.

In the ballpark’s first AL season (1901), the stands consisted of a covered grandstand, which extended past third base and about as far as first base and uncovered bleachers that extended part way down the LF and RF lines in foul territory. Home plate was in the Southeast corner of the site and the LF line ran about West to East-thus LH batters got the afternoon sun to look into down the LF line. Because the shape of the land plat was a trapezoid and not a rectangle, the outfield fences were oriented at more than 90 degrees in LF and less than 90 degrees in RF. In the park’s original 1901 AL configuration, a wooden clubhouse, a scoreboard, and a groundskeeper’s shed stood in LC near the corner where the LF and RF fences met. The scoreboard and both buildings were in play, but rarely reached by a batted ball.

Before the 1908 season the Tigers purchased the property behind RF (previously used as a lumberyard) and extended the ballpark’s northern property line to Cherry Street. This addition increased the size of the park’s land plat to 5.5 acres. At the same time additional rows of seats were added in front of the existing grandstand. To accommodate these additional seats, the playing field was shifted about 40 ft. towards the outfield. The additional room in RF allowed for the construction of permanent RF bleachers, with a capacity of about 2000. Prior to this time, the only outfield bleachers in the park were temporary RF bleachers used for the 1907 World Series. The new permanent RF bleachers added for the 1908 season extended from RC to within about 50 ft of the RF foul line. During this expansion of the ballpark, a clubhouse was built beneath the grandstand. This allowed the removal of the CF clubhouse (as well as the groundskeepers shed) and it was replaced with an interior CF fence.

There were other bleachers from which to view games at Bennett Park, however they were outside the park. These were the “wildcat bleachers” built on the roofs of homes or barns on National Ave. and were sited behind the not very tall LF fence. Not until the 1910 season were inside-the-park LF bleachers added in front of, and thus blocking the view from, the wildcat bleachers. The Bennett Park LF bleachers were relatively shallow in depth and extended from about the LF line almost to LC. With this and the prior additions, seating capacity was increased from 8500 in 1901 to 14,000 by 1910. These capacity figures were exclusive of as many standees as could be squeezed into the outfield and foul areas for big games. The popularity of the park as an advertising venue may be judged from the double-billboards making up the fence in CF in the last two years of the park’s existence.

In its early years of use as an AL ballpark, compared to the average pre-Classic wooden ballparks, Bennett Park was a smaller in land plat size, while it was about average in seating capacity. After the last outfield bleachers were installed in LF in 1910, Bennett Park now possessed the smallest LF in the AL while by contrast RF was much above average in size. Because of the short distance to the LF bleachers (only 295 down the line), Bennett Park had become a hitter’s park with HR park factors for 1910 and 1911 of better than 150.

A comparison of the number and type of HRs was made for Bennett Park in the 1910-11 seasons, after the LF bleachers had been built, vs. HRs in the 1908-09 seasons.

Home Runs at Bennett Park 1908-11

Time Period Total HRs OTF Bounce IP

1908-09 33 3 0 30

1910 39 16 5 23

1911 36 18 4 18

1910-11 75 34 9 41

Codes

OTF: Over-the-Fence HRs

Bounce: Bounce HRs included in the OTF category

IP: Inside-the Park HRs

Source-HR data from game accounts principally from the Detroit Free Press

The above comparison shows that HRs per season more than doubled between 1908-09 and 1910-11. The apparent effect of the introduction of the LF bleachers is exaggerated because the cork center ball was used for part of the 1910 AL season and all of the 1911 season. Note that ML HRs increased 42% with the first full-season (1911 over 1910) with the cork center ball. All of the 11 HRs (OTF excluding Bounce) in 1910 at Bennett Park were hit into the LF bleachers. In 1911 the LF bleachers accounted for 86% of the HRs (OTF excluding Bounce) - 12 HRs were into or over the LF bleachers, and two were to RF).

Dimensions-All (See following section for sources)

Time Period LF LC CF RC RF

1901-07 345 456 432 384 370

1908-09 330 440 480 412 440

1910-11 295 420 456 412 440

Notes-Straightaway RF was 374, and deepest point was 480 to right of LC in 1901-07

Straightaway RF was 400, and deepest point was 488 to right of CF in 1908-11

Fence Heights (From 1897 Sanborn or Estimated from Photos)

Time Period LF CF RF

1901-07 10 10 10

1908-09 12 12 4-12

1910-11 8 8-16 4-12

Average Outfield Distances

Time Period LF CF RF

1901-07 392 430 380

1908-09 373 461 407

1910-11 339 461 407

Average Outfield Distances (in feet)-is defined as the weighted average of several intervals for each field. The weights are the angular extent of each interval measured in degrees. The distance for each of the intervals is the average of the end points of each interval. For example 1910-11 LF in Bennett Park had the following estimated dimensions: LF foul line (0 degrees) 295, 5 degrees 304, 10 degrees 313, 15 degrees 330, 20 degrees 348, 27 degrees 387/410, and the LC field point (30 degrees) 420. LC is defined as 30 degrees and is the division point between LF and CF. The distance intervals are: 0-5 deg. = 299, 5-10 deg. = 308.5, 10-15 deg. = 321.5, and 15-20 deg. = 339, 20-27 deg. = 358.5, 27-30 deg. = 410. The weighted average (the weights are the number of degrees in each interval) of the intervals establishes the LF average distance as 339 ft.

The Basis of the Estimated Configurations and Dimensions

No listed dimensions for Bennett Park were found in the usual ballpark books ^(1,2,3). The 1901 dimensions: LF 345, CF 432, RF 370 (all dimensions are in ft.), were derived entirely from an 1897 Sanborn Fire Insurance Co. map, and ballpark photos ⁽⁴⁾. The diagram of the park and the dimensions of the park’s land plat were derived from the 1897 Sanborn. The only known dimension was LF in 1910-from the 1910 Opening Day article in the Detroit Free Press. The artist’s renditions of the park in Diamonds (p. 230) and Baseball Memories 1900-1909 (p. 52) were used to position the grandstands and playing field on the park diagram ^(2,5).

The description of the 1901 configuration of the ballpark was taken from Benson’s Ballparks of North America ⁽⁶⁾. In its original configuration Bennett Park had a small scoreboard in LC just to the left of the back of the CF clubhouse (photo in Baseball Memories p. 10). A small tool shed was to the right of the clubhouse in front of the RC-CF fence. Behind the RC-CF fence (on the northern edge of the ballpark) was a lumberyard. The first reported change in the park’s configuration (Benson-Ballparks of North America p. 49) was in 1908 before the start of the season. It consisted of: (1) the acquisition of the adjacent lumberyard property and the movement of the RF-CF fence back a considerable distance, (2) the construction of additional sections of grandstand seating in front of the old infield grandstand, and (3) the erection of permanent bleachers in fair RF territory. Because of the additional rows of seats in front of the grandstand, the home plate was moved about 40 ft towards CF ⁽⁷⁾. The additional grandstand section can be seen in a photo of the third base foul area and grandstand ⁽⁷⁾. There is also photographic evidence of some RF bleachers in a 1907 World Series photo of Bennett Park ⁽¹⁾. In this photo (The Corner p. 158-59, and Baseball Memories p. 51) low temporary bleachers are visible in RC next to the other larger and higher bleachers in RF. It is believed that both sets of bleachers were temporary seating constructed for the 1907 World Series. If the larger and higher RF bleachers had existed during the regular season, the distance to straightaway RF would have been reduced to about 325-335. At that distance a goodly number of Bounce and on-the-fly HRs into the RF bleachers should have occurred. A review of all HRs hit at Bennett Park for the 1907 season showed no HRs hit into any outfield bleachers ⁽⁸⁾.

The same photo (The Corner p. 158) reveals the RC-CF fence to be aligned with the back of the RF bleachers. The relative configuration of the RC-CF fence is shown again in a 1911 photo (The Corner p. 215). This photo also shows the RC fence to be again aligned with the back of the RF bleachers. The bleachers were built in part of the area that was added to the ballpark in 1908 (in what had been the lumberyard behind the 1907 RF fence). Thus the area of the ballpark’s land plat was significantly increased for the 1908 season. During the expansion of the ballpark in the 1907-08 off-season, a clubhouse was built beneath the grandstand. This allowed the removal of the CF clubhouse and tool shed. In CF there was a new short diagonal CF fence adjacent to the new scoreboard. A new and larger scoreboard was situated slightly to the left of dead CF. The enlarged land plat was shown on the Sanborn map and was used to estimate the RF dimensions for the 1908 and subsequent seasons. The next reported change was in 1910 and consisted of the addition of two small sections of seats to the grandstand (Benson-Ballparks of North America). In Benson there is no report of bleachers in LF. The photo of temporary LF bleachers built for the 1909 World Series (Baseball Memories 1900-1909 p.53) confirms that as late as the end of the 1909 season there were no permanent bleachers in left field. For the final two seasons of its existence, the park’s seating capacity was increased by the construction of shallow permanent bleachers in LF. There is a report of “permanent bleachers in RF and LF” (The Corner p. 215) at the start of the 1911 season. However, research into the newspaper accounts of home runs in the 1910 and 1911 seasons showed the LF bleachers to actually have been in place and in use during the 1910 season ^(8).Later research found a description of the LF bleachers in use on Opening Day 1910 ⁽⁹⁾. This same Opening Day story gave the new LF distance as 295 ⁽⁸⁾. The 1911 photo (The Corner p. 215) which shows the new scoreboard also shows double height billboards in LC and a billboard above the scoreboard. Another photo, this one included in a video on classic ballparks, shows both the depth and width of the LF bleachers ^(9). Visible are 14 rows of seats which were the basis of the estimated depth of the LF bleachers. The estimated depth of the LF bleachers in combination with the known LF dimension for 1910 (295) was the basis of the 1908-09 LF dimension (330). In addition, in this part of the video the scoreboard is visible as part of the CF diagonal fence-only in this photo the scoreboard is amongst the upper tier of billboards. As this photo shows the LF bleachers it must be in either 1910 or 1911.

In summary, most of the Bennett Park dimensions were estimated from the 1897 Sanborn map and contain a moderate amount of uncertainty. All dimensions were checked against, and are consistent with, the available photographic evidence and the HR record.

⁽¹⁾ Richard Bak, Charles Vincent and the Detroit Free Press, The Corner, 1999

⁽²⁾Michael Gershman, Diamonds-The Evolution of the Ballpark, 1993

⁽³⁾Philip J. Lowry, Green Cathedrals, Revised Ed. 1992,

⁽⁴⁾Sanborn Fire Insurance Co. map, Detroit 1897: Vol. 2, Sheet 28

⁽⁵⁾ Marc Okkonen, Baseball Memories 1900-1909, 1992

⁽⁶⁾ Michael Benson, Ballparks of North America, 1989

⁽⁷⁾ Richard Bak, A Place For Summer, 1998

⁽⁸⁾ Research by the author from game accounts in the Detroit Free Press

⁽⁹⁾ Detroit Free Press April 17, 1910

⁽¹⁰⁾ America’s Classic Ballparks, VHS by Jeff Daniels, 1990

#129 From: Jeff Suntala <sun@...>
Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 1:09 am
Subject: Re: sanborn maps sunbobular
Offline
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Here's the info that was sent out.

Thank you for requesting a custom trial for :

      Digital Sanborn Maps, 1867-1970
      ProQuest Historical Newspapers - The Chicago Defender

Your trial is now active, and it runs from 11/02/2005 to 12/01/2005.

To log in to your trial, go to:
    http://trials.proquest.com/ptc?userid=1564994
Your password is welcome.

On Nov 8, 2005, at 4:32 PM, darlene_tulley@... wrote:

> I saw the message about SABR's agreement with ProQuest for use of the
> Sanborn maps. I tried to find the Sanborn maps on ProQuest, but I
> couldn't find them. Can anyone help me find them? Thanks.
>
> Kevin Tulley

#128 From: "darlene_tulley@..." <darlene_tulley@...>
Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 9:32 pm
Subject: sanborn maps lauerspark
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I saw the message about SABR's agreement with ProQuest for use of the Sanborn maps. I tried to find the Sanborn maps on ProQuest, but I couldn't find them. Can anyone help me find them? Thanks.

Kevin Tulley

#127 From: m frankfsa <mfrankfsa@...>
Date: Tue Nov 8, 2005 12:53 am
Subject: why no response mfrankfsa
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I'm an ordinary committee member.  I noticed your
post and I know of some here or there but I figured
others would have a more comprehensive list of markers
and such.             -- M. (New York) Frank



__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

#126 From: Paul Wendt <pgw@...>
Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 1:14 am
Subject: Re: Ballpark site markers? pgw02472
Offline
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>  >   ----- Original Message -----
>  >   From: Denis Repp
>  >   To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com
>  >   Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:57 PM
>  >   Subject: [SABRballparks] Ballpark site markers?
>  >   I am peripherally involved in a current effort to shore up, spruce up
>  >and
>  >   recognize the remaining section of the left-field wall of Forbes Field,
>  >in
>  >   Pittsburgh.  One of the politicos involved in this project has asked
>  >about
>  >   what sorts of things have been done in other cities.  Before I send a
>  >   general request to SABR-L, I'm wondering if a list already exists of
>  >what
>  >   has already been done along these lines.  Can anyone help with this?

See "Preservation News, June 2003" by Bob Bluthardt.
"News on preservation of old ballparks, including Chicago, San Diego,
Birmingham, New York, Pittsfield, Boston and Detroit (taken from the
June 2003 newsletter)."
      http://sabr.org/sabr.cfm?a=cms,c,410,5,0

Maybe a regular feature of the newsletter, that one is alone on the web.

Paul Wendt

#125 From: "Valerie and Bob Bluthardt" <rfvcblue@...>
Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 1:01 am
Subject: Re: Ballpark site markers? robertbluthardt
Offline
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Good grief!

That isn't very sporting of the flock.

Where does this project stand? if a plug in our next committee newsletter would help, I would be pleased to do so.

I suppport any project to remember/mark any piece of an old ballpark and would be very pleased to contact anyone to relay that feeling.

best wishes,

Bob Bluthardt

----- Original Message -----

From: Denis Repp

To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 6:47 PM

Subject: Re: [SABRballparks] Ballpark site markers?

Thanks, Bob, but I got absolutely no help on this question. I received not a single word from any Ballpark Committee member, and just a whimsical suggestion from a SABR-L subscriber (namely, that they should consider a statue of Yogi Berra looking skyward on the site). I did not pass any of this on to the people involved in the Forbes effort; they may or may not draw their own conclusions from SABR's silence. Denis "I'll make it." - Jimmy Chitwood >From: "Valerie and Bob Bluthardt" <rfvcblue@...> >Reply-To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com >To: <SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [SABRballparks] Ballpark site markers? >Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:59:40 -0600 > >Did you get enough response on this issue? Dozens of parks on both the >minor and major league evels have been preserved either in whole >(Rickwood), in part (Braves Field) or with just a marker. Efforts are >always bubbling to save all of Tiger Stadium and now semi-doomed Yankee >Stadium. > >best wishes, > >Bob Bluthardt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Denis Repp > To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:57 PM > Subject: [SABRballparks] Ballpark site markers? > > > I am peripherally involved in a current effort to shore up, spruce up >and > recognize the remaining section of the left-field wall of Forbes Field, >in > Pittsburgh. One of the politicos involved in this project has asked >about > what sorts of things have been done in other cities. Before I send a > general request to SABR-L, I'm wondering if a list already exists of >what > has already been done along these lines. Can anyone help with this? > > Thanks, > > Denis > > "I'll make it." - Jimmy Chitwood > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Baseball Committee Baseball memorabilia sports > Sports baseball Ballpark Baseball sports equipment > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "SABRballparks" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > SABRballparks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >Service. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

#124 From: "Denis Repp" <spindown66@...>
Date: Mon Nov 7, 2005 12:47 am
Subject: Re: Ballpark site markers? picaroon89
Offline
Send Email

Thanks, Bob, but I got absolutely no help on this question.  I received not
a single word from any Ballpark Committee member, and just a whimsical
suggestion from a SABR-L subscriber (namely, that they should consider a
statue of Yogi Berra looking skyward on the site).  I did not pass any of
this on to the people involved in the Forbes effort; they may or may not
draw their own conclusions from SABR's silence.



Denis

"I'll make it." - Jimmy Chitwood






>From: "Valerie and Bob Bluthardt" <rfvcblue@...>
>Reply-To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com
>To: <SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [SABRballparks] Ballpark site markers?
>Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:59:40 -0600
>
>Did you get enough response on this issue? Dozens of parks on both the
>minor and major league evels have been preserved either in whole
>(Rickwood), in part (Braves Field) or with just a marker. Efforts are
>always bubbling to save all of Tiger Stadium and now semi-doomed Yankee
>Stadium.
>
>best wishes,
>
>Bob Bluthardt
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Denis Repp
>   To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:57 PM
>   Subject: [SABRballparks] Ballpark site markers?
>
>
>   I am peripherally involved in a current effort to shore up, spruce up
>and
>   recognize the remaining section of the left-field wall of Forbes Field,
>in
>   Pittsburgh.  One of the politicos involved in this project has asked
>about
>   what sorts of things have been done in other cities.  Before I send a
>   general request to SABR-L, I'm wondering if a list already exists of
>what
>   has already been done along these lines.  Can anyone help with this?
>
>   Thanks,
>
>   Denis
>
>   "I'll make it." - Jimmy Chitwood
>
>
>
>
>   SPONSORED LINKS Baseball  Committee  Baseball memorabilia sports
>         Sports baseball  Ballpark  Baseball sports equipment
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     a..  Visit your group "SABRballparks" on the web.
>
>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>      SABRballparks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

#123 From: "Valerie and Bob Bluthardt" <rfvcblue@...>
Date: Sun Nov 6, 2005 11:59 pm
Subject: Re: Ballpark site markers? robertbluthardt
Offline
Send Email

Did you get enough response on this issue? Dozens of parks on both the minor and major league evels have been preserved either in whole (Rickwood), in part (Braves Field) or with just a marker. Efforts are always bubbling to save all of Tiger Stadium and now semi-doomed Yankee Stadium.

best wishes,

Bob Bluthardt

----- Original Message -----

From: Denis Repp

To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:57 PM

Subject: [SABRballparks] Ballpark site markers?

I am peripherally involved in a current effort to shore up, spruce up and recognize the remaining section of the left-field wall of Forbes Field, in Pittsburgh. One of the politicos involved in this project has asked about what sorts of things have been done in other cities. Before I send a general request to SABR-L, I'm wondering if a list already exists of what has already been done along these lines. Can anyone help with this? Thanks, Denis "I'll make it." - Jimmy Chitwood

#122 From: "rselter" <rselter@...>
Date: Sat Nov 5, 2005 7:04 pm
Subject: Ballpark Sanborns rmselter
Offline
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SABR has a trial usage agreement with ProQuest until Dec. 1, 2005 for access to the on-line collection of Sanborn Fire Insurance maps. The on-line Sanborn maps are arranged by state, city, date, and then Volume. Within each Volume are up to 100 sheets of maps.

Here are the locations of several Ballpark maps:

Boston South End Grounds III: Boston 1914, Vol. 2, Sheet 58

Philadelphia Baker Bowl: Philadelphia 1921, Vol. 13 Sheet 1224

Shibe Park Philadelphia 1921, Vol. 13 Sheet 1220 and 1221

St. Louis Robison Field: St. Louis 1909, Vol. 7 Sheet 46

Sportsman’s Park: St. Louis 1909, Vol. 7 Sheet 68

Finding the correct map for any given ballparks (without the above map references) takes a good street map of the relevant city and a fair amount of trial and error.

Ron Selter

#121 From: Jeff Suntala <sun@...>
Date: Sat Nov 5, 2005 3:54 pm
Subject: Sanborn Maps sunbobular
Offline
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Hi all, I still need Sanborn maps or good quality footprint views of
the following parks. If anyone is willing to share anything with me,
please let me know. My previous email listed all the parks I DO have
and will gladly share with anyone.


Baltimore
	 1911 (Have partial park, need right field half)
Boston
	 Huntington Avenue Grounds
Chicago
	 South Side Park (with outer pavillions) Have 1911 version with no
outer stands.
Cincinnati
	 Palace of the Fans (have 1891 League Park)
Milwaukee
	 Lloyd Street Grounds (have plot of land from 1894)
Philadelphia
	 Columbia Park
Washington D.C.
	 Any of the early wooden parks.

I have some super low resolution Sanborn maps from thumbnails on the
internet of some of these. I'm looking for something a little more
substantial.

thanks,

Jeff Suntala

#120 From: Jeff Suntala <sun@...>
Date: Sat Nov 5, 2005 3:52 pm
Subject: Sanborn Maps sunbobular
Offline
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Hi eveyone,

I think everyone got a message from John at SABR HQ about our trial
subscription to the digital Sanborn Map collection. It's a wonderful
resource that's only available to us for a short time.

I immediately started hunting away, looking for info on wooden
ballparks of the Major Leagues. I was able to find a whole bunch of
stuff. Here's what I found. If anyone wants any of these, I can email
them to you. They are in pdf format, taken from microfilm, so they are
black and white. They are a reasonable resolution.


Baltimore
	 1901 Partial. Park runs off map with no corresponding other half.
Boston
	 South End Grounds
		 1887
		 1897
		 1914
	 Huntington
		 1895 (pre ballpark) just shows amusement ride "the Chutes"
Brooklyn
	 Washington Park
		 1906
Chicago
	 SouthSide Park
		 1911 (after outer pavillions were taken down. Turned into American
Giants of Negro Leagues fame park)
	 West Side Grounds
		 1905
Cincinnati
	 League Park
		 1891
Cleveland
	 League Park
		 1896
		 1913
Milwaukeee
	 Lloyd Street Grounds
		 1894 (plot of land, no ballpark)
New York
	 Hilltop Park
		 1909
	 Polo Grounds
		 1893
		 1909
Philadelphia
	 Baker Bowl
		 1921
Pittsburgh
	 Exposition
		 1906
St. Louis
	 Sportsman's Park
		 1909
	 Robison Field
		 1909
Washington D.C.
	 American League Park
		 Plot of land, no ballpark

#119 From: "rselter" <rselter@...>
Date: Tue Nov 1, 2005 5:28 pm
Subject: RE: Digest Number 45-Citizens Bank Park rmselter
Offline
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Thanks to Kevin Tulley for the research help (see message below) on the
issue of the marked vs. actual dimensions at Citizens Bank Park.  I checked
out the park diagram on the Phillies' website.  This seating diagram shows
both the LF and RF fences to be at 90 degrees to the foul lines.  Therefore
by not very complicated high-school geometry the following dimensions must
be true:

LF foul line 329
Straightaway LF (15 degrees) 341
LF Power Alley (22.5 degrees) 356
LC (30 degrees) 380

RF foul line 330
Straightaway RF (15 degrees) 342
RF Power Alley (22.5 degrees) 357
RC (30 degrees) 381

Note that the CF dimensions cannot be verified using only geometry, because
of the LC notch and CF diagonal fence.  However the CF dimensions from the
Phillies' website seating diagram are consistent with the LF and RF fences
being at 90 degrees to the foul lines.

Also note that in an earlier message on this same subject I was in error in
stating that the LF and RF dimensions were both 330.

The Phillies stated objective about the dimensions at Citizens Bank Park
having intended to be about the same as at Veterans Stadium were not
achieved for LF or RF.  Herein follows a comparison of average OF distances
by field for the two parks:

			 Citizens Bank  Veterans
LF 		 346 		   357
CF 		 396 		   396
RF 		 347 		   357

Park Composite  363 		   370

HR Park Factors for Veterans Stadium were 2001-03 = 93.3 (three year
average) while for Citizens Bank Park 2005 = 128.9

This comparison suggests that Citizens Bank Park has become a noticeably
better HR hitters parks due to relatively small decreases in the LF and RF
dimensions.

Ron Selter





Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:09:21 GMT
    From: "darlene_tulley@..." <darlene_tulley@...>
Subject: Re: Research Help-Citizens Bank Park

Ron,
      I've been to many games there and it looks to me that they are at a 90
degree angle. And looking at a seating diagram from before the 2004 season
and the 2005 season, it looks like they are at a 90 degree angle.
Saturday's Philadelphia Inquirer said, "Players and coaches contend the
power alley in left field sits between 345 and 358.5, which would make it
the shortest in the National League." Saturday's Allentown Morning Call
said, "The two-year old facility has been ridiculed by all pitchers, who
insist the power alleys - especially left field, which was erroneously
listed at 369 feet for some time - made it a "joke" and a "travesty"."
Kevin Tulley

#118 From: "darlene_tulley@..." <darlene_tulley@...>
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:09 pm
Subject: Re: Research Help-Citizens Bank Park lauerspark
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Ron,

I've been to many games there and it looks to me that they are at a 90 degree angle. And looking at a seating diagram from before the 2004 season and the 2005 season, it looks like they are at a 90 degree angle.

Saturday's Philadelphia Inquirer said, "Players and coaches contend the power alley in left field sits between 345 and 358.5, which would make it the shortest in the National League."

Saturday's Allentown Morning Call said, "The two-year old facility has been ridiculed by all pitchers, who insist the power alleys - especially left field, which was erroneously listed at 369 feet for some time - made it a "joke" and a "travesty"."

Kevin Tulley

#117 From: "rselter" <rselter@...>
Date: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:55 am
Subject: Research Help-Citizens Bank Park rmselter
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The understanding and possible correction of wrongly marked LF and perhaps RF dimensions at Citizens Bank Ballpark could be greatly helped if a Ballpark list member who has attended game at the park could answer one question: Are the LF and RF fences aligned at 90 degrees to the foul lines. If so, then the Phillies statements that the power alleys are 369 are flatly wrong.

Ron Selter

#116 From: "rselter" <rselter@...>
Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:54 pm
Subject: RE: Digest Number 43-Citizens Bank LF Wall rmselter
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Ballparks Digest No. 43 had three messages (included below) about possible
changes in the dimensions in LF at Philadelphia's Citizens Bank Park.  More
information on the possible changes is contained in a story at www.mlb.com

The background to this issue is even more interesting.  During the 2004
season it was discovered that the LF distance at the park marked on the
walls were wrong.  The full story was on-line in the Philadelphia Inquirer
of July 25, 2004.

To summarize, the LF power alley marker (369) was to have been at the 22.5
degree location.  Such a location would have clashed with an advertising
sign.  The marker was moved towards the LF line and located at a point that
(when measured in July 2004) was found to be only 358.5 ft from home plate.
All other marked distances were re-measured.  The results:

CF Marked 398  Actual 397 ft 10 inches
CF (dead CF) Marked 401  Actual 401
Straightaway LF (15 degrees) Marked 345  Actual 345
LF Power Alley Marked 369  Actual 358
LC Notch Marked 385  Actual 385
LF/RF foul poles Marked 329  Actual 329

There were also reports from players that the Straightaway LF and RF marked
distances (345) were actually located over towards the power alley locations

The Phillies' management said the intent of the design of the new park was
to approximate the prior dimensions at Veterans Stadium.  At the old Vet the
power alleys were 371.  Thus the 369 distances, if actually at the power
alleys, would have approximated the dimensions of Veterans Stadium.

The effect of these dimensions:  for the 2005 season the HR Park Factor at
Citizens Bank Park was 128.9 about fourth or fifth highest in the majors
(from story on the mlb web-site).  Pitchers have complained that the
distances at the park were too short-particularly to LF and LC.

I believe the Phillies' management is more than a little sensitive to the
pitchers complaints about the park's dimensions.  In addition they are
concerned that free agent pitchers might avoid signing with the Phillies as
has been reported with the Rockies and the Coors Field issue.


Ron Selter

    Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:34:42 GMT
    From: "darlene_tulley@..." <darlene_tulley@...>
Subject: Citizens Bank Park left field wall

I received my Phillies e-mail "From the desk of David Montgomery" last
night, and it was mostly about the Phillies search for their new GM. But the
last paragraph was about changes to the left field wall.
Montgomery wrote, "On another matter, a question arose concerning the
dimensions of Citizens Bank Park. We have always wanted to have a ballpark
that plays fair. After extensive study and charting every home run the past
two seasons, we have decided to make changes to the existing left field
wall. Details on this project will be forthcoming."
I will pass along anything the Phillies do to the left field wall.
                                                      Kevin Tulley





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Along with the details of the changes; would like to know why the Phillies
consider the changes necessary.  Symmetry is not required under current MLB
guidelines.  The "Classic Era" ballparks varied widely as to dimensions and
as to which side was hitter friendly - was not a problem then.  Hope we're
not looking at a modern re-enactment of the frequent changes to dimensions
which took place at Braves Field.  Old saying - 'If it ain't broke, don't
fix it'.

Jerome Crosson




________________________________________________________________________

    From: Paul Healey <paulhealey@...>
Subject: Re: Citizens Bank Park left field wall


Jerome,

Pitching wins championships. The Phillies are concerned with attracting
free agent pitchers and getting their pitchers to resign. They don't
want to end up being the next Colorado Rockies.

-Paul

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2005/10/28/sox_deal_seen_to_build_hotel_near_fenway/

#115 From: Paul Healey <paulhealey@...>
Date: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:55 am
Subject: Re: Citizens Bank Park left field wall paulhealey
Offline
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Jerome,

Pitching wins championships. The Phillies are concerned with attracting
free agent pitchers and getting their pitchers to resign. They don't
want to end up being the next Colorado Rockies.

-Paul

--- storytellerjmc@... wrote:

> Along with the details of the changes; would like to know why the
> Phillies consider the changes necessary.  Symmetry is not required
> under current MLB guidelines.  The "Classic Era" ballparks varied
> widely as to dimensions and as to which side was hitter friendly -
> was not a problem then.  Hope we're not looking at a modern
> re-enactment of the frequent changes to dimensions which took place
> at Braves Field.  Old saying - 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.
>
> Jerome Crosson
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: darlene_tulley@... <darlene_tulley@...>
> To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:34:42 GMT
> Subject: [SABRballparks] Citizens Bank Park left field wall
>
>
> I received my Phillies e-mail "From the desk of David Montgomery"
> last night, and it was mostly about the Phillies search for their new
> GM. But the last paragraph was about changes to the left field wall.
> Montgomery wrote, "On another matter, a question arose concerning the
> dimensions of Citizens Bank Park. We have always wanted to have a
> ballpark that plays fair. After extensive study and charting every
> home run the past two seasons, we have decided to make changes to the
> existing left field wall. Details on this project will be
> forthcoming."
> I will pass along anything the Phillies do to the left field wall.
>                                                      Kevin Tulley
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Baseball Committee Baseball memorabilia sports
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#114 From: Maury Brown <maurybaseballcrazy@...>
Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:34 pm
Subject: Sox deal seen to build hotel near Fenway maurybasebal...
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Sox deal seen to build hotel near Fenway

By Steve Bailey, Globe Staff | October 28, 2005

The Boston Red Sox have launched a partnership to build a 200-room hotel and 160 condominiums at the foot of historic Fenway Park, according to an executive who helped negotiate the agreement.

The Red Sox have signed a letter of intent with the Sage family for a joint venture to tear down the family's aging 94-room Howard Johnson's motor lodge on Boylston Street and replace it with a hotel twice its size and market-rate condos, the executive said. The executive put the project's cost at about $140 million.

Spokesmen for the Red Sox and Sage family declined to comment yesterday.

The agreement reflects the Red Sox's strategy to control as much of the surrounding neighborhood as possible now that the team has committed to stay in Fenway, Major League Baseball's smallest park. It also gives the Red Sox ownership (which includes The New York Times Co., owner of The Boston Globe) a chance to participate in the development of what has come to be one of the hottest districts in the city.

Having committed to spend $100 million renovating the 1912 ballpark, Red Sox officials have been increasingly concerned about development around Fenway. In particular, they have been concerned about new towers that would obscure the open skyline from inside the park and compromise what they call ''the Fenway experience."

(to read the entire article, use the link provided above)

#113 From: storytellerjmc@...
Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: Citizens Bank Park left field wall storytellerjmc@...
Send Email

Along with the details of the changes; would like to know why the Phillies consider the changes necessary. Symmetry is not required under current MLB guidelines. The "Classic Era" ballparks varied widely as to dimensions and as to which side was hitter friendly - was not a problem then. Hope we're not looking at a modern re-enactment of the frequent changes to dimensions which took place at Braves Field. Old saying - 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

Jerome Crosson

-----Original Message-----
From: darlene_tulley@netzero.net <darlene_tulley@netzero.net>
To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:34:42 GMT
Subject: [SABRballparks] Citizens Bank Park left field wall

I received my Phillies e-mail "From the desk of David Montgomery" last night, and it was mostly about the Phillies search for their new GM. But the last paragraph was about changes to the left field wall.

Montgomery wrote, "On another matter, a question arose concerning the dimensions of Citizens Bank Park. We have always wanted to have a ballpark that plays fair. After extensive study and charting every home run the past two seasons, we have decided to make changes to the existing left field wall. Details on this project will be forthcoming."

I will pass along anything the Phillies do to the left field wall.

Kevin Tulley

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#112 From: "darlene_tulley@..." <darlene_tulley@...>
Date: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:34 pm
Subject: Citizens Bank Park left field wall lauerspark
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I will pass along anything the Phillies do to the left field wall.

Kevin Tulley

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#111 From: Jeff Suntala <sun@...>
Date: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:38 am
Subject: Re: Sanborn maps sunbobular
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Thanks Ted

On Oct 26, 2005, at 8:40 PM, TedLukacs@... wrote:

> Got a few Sanborn maps in the computer, and will forward them in a
> couple of different batches.  Give me a couple of days, since we just
> got our power back from Hurricane Wilma this evening.
> TL
>
>
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>  ▪   Visit your group "SABRballparks" on the web.
>  
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>  
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> Service.
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#110 From: TedLukacs@...
Date: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:40 pm
Subject: Re: Sanborn maps tedlukacs
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Got a few Sanborn maps in the computer, and will forward them in a couple of different batches. Give me a couple of days, since we just got our power back from Hurricane Wilma this evening.

#109 From: "rselter" <rselter@...>
Date: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:04 pm
Subject: RE: Digest Number 40 rmselter
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RE: Evolution of the Ballpark

I have Sanborn maps or close equivalents for several of the wooden early
Deadball Era ballparks.  For some of the other early Deadball ballparks
(e.g., Huntington Ave Grounds) I have diagrams based on photos and newspaper
accounts of the original construction and subsequent modifications.

As regards Philadelphia ballparks:
	 I have a footprint map of Columbia Park taken from a 1907
Philadelphia  street atlas (scale 1 inch = 80 ft) which showed the
entirety of the  ballpark (one full city block) with the perimeter
fences and location  of the grandstand and bleachers. As with the Sanborn
maps the location  of home plate and the foul lines is not shown.

	 The poster of Baker Bowl is excellent-every detail appears to be
historically accurate.  With the Lifebuoy sign in RF, the time period
appears to be the 1930s.

	 With the Shibe Park poster, it is possible to date it to the time
period 1926-34, after the double-deck stands were built in LF and
before the  34 ft "Spite Fence" was built in RF.

Ron Selter

#108 From: Jeff Suntala <sun@...>
Date: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:44 pm
Subject: Sanborn maps sunbobular
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Hi everybody,

I am working on the next round of individual city posters of my
"Evolution of the Ballpark" series of posters. If you scroll down the
page you can see the Philadelphia poster.

http://www.suntala.com/evolution.html

I am trying to find Sanborn maps of the old wooden ballparks of the
National and American leagues. If I have an accurate footprint plan of
the park, I can make a rough 3D model to base a rendering on. Is there
anyone out there who has access to any of these?

I have the steel and concrete ballparks covered as far as reference
goes, but would really like to do a nice job on the wooden parks, and
to do that would like to have some accurate footprints to start from.

Can anyone help?

thanks,

Jeff

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/5145925/detail.html

#107 From: Maury Brown <maurybaseballcrazy@...>
Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:49 pm
Subject: UPDATE: Scaffolding Collapses At Fenway Park maurybasebal...
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This news just came across the radar

Scaffolding Collapses At Fenway Park

Renovations Were Under Way At Ballpark

POSTED: 4:06 pm EDT October 21, 2005

UPDATED: 4:35 pm EDT October 21, 2005

BOSTON -- A section of scaffolding at Fenway Park collapsed inside the ballpark Friday.

The incident happened at about 4 p.m., and officials said that no one was injured. Renovations to the park have been under way since the Chicago White Sox eliminated Boston from the playoffs earlier this month.

The glass-enclosed 406 Club above home plate is being redesigned to create the EMC Club on one level and Home Plate Pavilion on another level.

link to image of the collapse:

http://images.ibsys.com/2005/1021/5146082_320X240.jpg

#106 From: "rselter" <rselter@...>
Date: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:28 am
Subject: Off-Season Developments At Dodger Stadium rmselter
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Before the 2005 season the Dodgers added 1600 luxury seats on the field level. At the same time, in accordance with the Stadium’s conditional use permit, they closed off 1600 seats in the upper decks. The new luxury seats, sold for the first time for the 2005 season, did not sell out and were criticized for having poor sight lines and narrow seats-as well as being too expensive. Now after a less than happy 2005 season the 1600 luxury seats are being replaced with 1100 luxury seats of larger size and will include small tables. The 500 fewer seats are made up by reducing the number of blocked-off upper deck seats by 500. Thus total capacity for Dodger Stadium will remain at 56,000.

The full story is contained in the LA Times of 10-20-2005. In addition all seats in the park (excluding the bench “seats” in the outfield pavilions) are being replaced and will how have cup holders which were lacking previously. The plan includes going back to the original color scheme for seats in each of the four levels in the park. Total cost for this reseating plan is reported to be in the range of $12-15 million.

Ron Selter

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051014&content_id=1249773&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

#105 From: Maury Brown <maurybaseballcrazy@...>
Date: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:26 pm
Subject: Upgrades begin at Fenway Park maurybasebal...
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Upgrades begin at Fenway Park
New club seats to be added to 93-year-old ballpark
By Ian Browne
MLB.com

BOSTON -- The latest modernization of 93-year-old Fenway Park was symbolized late Friday morning by, of all things, some shattering of glass.

In unveiling the beginning stages of the new club seats that will be spread around the yard in 2006, the Red Sox officially bid adieu to the large Plexiglas windows that were draped across the suddenly defunct .406 Club, a somewhat sterile and closed-off area that was created in 1989 and never gained much popularity.

"We've been hearing almost non-stop since we got here that the glass should go," said Red Sox president/CEO Larry Lucchino. "That there was a different kind of atmosphere here, that the people who bought these seats preferred the open air, the electricity, the energy of Fenway Park."

(to read the entire article, use the link provided above)