Fredric London asked in regard to CLE League Park III and IV:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Was any of the wooden park incorporated into League
Park IV? If so, how long did this/these section(s)
last before they were replaced?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I compared the 1896 Sanborn which showed the stands and configuration of the
wooden ballpark League Park III, with the 1911 Sanborn which showed the
stands and configuration of the wooden ballpark League Park IV.

The grandstand of League Park IV (steel-and-concrete double-deck) was
obviously not a carryover from League Park III. In League Park IV there
were wooden bleachers in LF-CF, that extended from straight-away LF until
the left edge of the CF scoreboard. League Park IV was built on a larger
site than League Park III, thus the bleachers in LF-CF of IV, were set back
about 50 feet further (to the East), than the wooden bleachers of III. It
is entirely possible that the wooden bleachers of III were merely moved back
and used in IV. Comparing the 1909 photo, that showed the wooden bleachers
of III, with the size of the wooden bleachers of IV from the 1911 Sanborn,
indicates both sets of bleachers are about the same size.

Conclusion: Only the LF-CF bleachers from League Park III could have been
reused in IV in a slightly different location. These wooden bleachers in IV
were likely replaced in August 1920 as seats were added for the 1920 pennant
race and subsequent WS.


Ron Selter
-----Original Message-----
From: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:45 PM
To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SABRballparks] Digest Number 85

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Ballpark Research-A Work In Progress-The Case Of CLE League
Park III
From: Fredric London <fmlondon@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 16:13:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fredric London <fmlondon@...>
Subject: Re: Ballpark Research-A Work In Progress-The Case Of CLE League
Park III

Ron,

Was any of the wooden park incorporated into League
Park IV? If so, how long did this/these section(s)
last before they were replaced?

Thank you.

--- rselter <rselter@...> wrote:

> Recently I posted an article to this list on the
> subject of the first AL
> ballpark in Cleveland-League Park III. After
> reviewing game accounts
> involving home runs for the 1908 season I arrived at
> a conclusion concerning
> the RF-CF configuration of the park in the 1908
> season.
>
>
>
> Here is the evidence:
>
>
>
> (1) From the Cleveland Plain Dealer June 5,
> 1908: In the game account
> (G on prior day 6-4-1908), Inside-the-Park home run
> (IPHR) by Bill Hickman
> (an IPHR to CF) was described as the first home run
> by Cleveland on the
> enlarged grounds.
>
>
>
> (2) HR data for League Park showed over the five
> seasons (1903-07) nine
> IPHRs, of which three were to CF. For the 1908
> season there were nine
> IPHRs, of which six were to CF.
>
>
>
> (3) The cause of this marked increase in IPHRs
> was first believed to be
> due to the removal of the RF bleachers before the
> 1908 season. Photographic
> evidence (photo in the Cleveland Leader) showed no
> RF bleachers in existence
> in the 1909 season. However during the 1908 season
> there were six home runs
> hit into the RF bleaches.
>
>
>
> (4) Clearly, the RF bleachers were not removed
> before the 1908 season.
> The answer to the increase in IPHRs-especially to
> CF- was due to the
> construction of new bleachers in left-center behind
> the LF-CF fence. As
> these bleachers extended all the way to the CF
> corner, the view from them
> would have been largely blocked by the CF portion of
> the pre-existing RF
> bleachers. The answer I concluded, was the CF
> portion of the RF bleachers
> were removed prior to the 1908 season-thus the
> reference (G of 6-4-1908) to
> as the first home run by Cleveland on the enlarged
> grounds, and six home
> runs into the RF bleachers still remaining.
>
>
>
> (5) Home data supplied by David Vincent from the
> SABR Home Run
> Log-additional research on all home runs at League
> Park in the Deadball era
> by the author.
>
>
>
> The revised article on League Park III follows. I
> hope the formatting of
> the tables comes out better in the List than my
> first attempt.
>
>
>
> Ron Selter
>
>
>
>
>
> Cleveland LEAGUE PARK (III) In The Deadball Era
>
> (Revised 4-9-2006)
>
>
>
> There were four ballpark in Cleveland called League
> Park. The first (League
> Park I) was used by the NL Cleveland Spiders
> 1879-1884. This park was
> located at Silby (later Carnegie) St, Kennard (later
> East 46th) St, and
> Cedar St. The second park (League Park II) was used
> by the AA Cleveland
> Spiders 1887-1888 and the NL Cleveland Spiders
> 1889-1890. This second park
> in Cleveland to be called League Park was at a
> different location (39th St,
> East 35th St, Euclid Ave, and Payne Ave). League
> Park III was at a third
> location (located in downtown Cleveland at East 70th
> St, Linwood Ave, Dunham
> (later East 66th) St, and Lexington Ave
> Northeast)(1). League Park III was
> used by the little-lamented NL Cleveland Spiders for
> the 1891-99 seasons,
> and was the first Cleveland ballpark used by the AL.
> League Park IV was
> built of steel-and-concrete on the site of League
> Park III between the 1909
> and 1910 seasons. This park was later used by the
> AL Cleveland Indians
> until mid-season 1932, and again for most home games
> from 1934 to 1946.
>
> At League Park III, home plate and the grandstand
> were located in the
> Northwest corner of the site. Dimensional data for
> this ballpark in Green
> Cathedrals are limited to RF (290) and the height of
> the RF fence (20 ft).
>
> The park, when it was first used by the AL in 1901,
> consisted of a covered
> wooden grandstand in several sections from well
> beyond 1B to well beyond 3B.
> In addition, small bleachers were located far down
> the LF and RF foul lines.
> In 1901-02 there were no seats in the fair portion
> of the outfield. The
> seating capacity of the park in 1901 was about
> 9,000. The ballpark's
> dimensions were constrained by the inability of the
> club to purchase a
> saloon on Lexington Ave, in what would have been the
> RF corner. Except for
> this aspect the park site was rectangular. Because
> of the necessity to
> avoid the saloon property, the field was angled such
> that the RF foul line
> just missed the corner of the saloon property. As a
> result, the RF line met
> the RF fence at more than 90 degrees, and the LF
> foul line therefore had to
> intersect the LF fence at less than 90 degrees. The
> LF and RF fences meet
> in the CF corner (to the right of dead CF) at a
> right angle.
>
> The knowledge of the park's configuration and
> dimensions was based on two
> principal sources: (1) an 1896 Sanborn fire
> insurance map, and (2) a 1909
> panoramic photo of the park from the Cleveland
> Leader. The known RF
> dimension (290) was used to position home plate (at
> an estimated 75 ft from
> the backstop) on the Sanborn map. The resulting LF
> dimension was 353, and
> dead CF was 409. The CF corner, at the junction of
> the LF and RF fences,
> was about halfway between dead CF and right-center,
> and was a substantial
> distance from home plate (445).
>
> The first configuration change was before the 1903
> season. Capacity was
> increased with the building of bleachers in RF in
> front of the majority of
> the high RF fence. These bleachers extended from
> center field to within
> about 50 ft of the RF foul line. These RF
> bleachers, whose depth was
> estimated, reduced the straight-away RF distance
> from 323 to about 290. The
> seating capacity of the park was again increased for
> the 1908 season by the
> construction of a second set of bleachers behind the
> left-center field
> portion of the LF fence. These bleachers, as shown
> in the 1909 photo from
> the Cleveland Leader, extended from about
> left-center all the way to the CF
> corner. At the same time the center field portion
> of the RF bleachers were
> removed-most likely to unblock the sight lines from
> the new bleachers. The
> main portion of the RF bleachers remained in use for
> another season (1908)
> after which, they were removed.
>
> Unlike many Deadball Era ballparks, League Park III
> was not a park conducive
> to Inside-the-Park-Home Runs as shown by the home
> run data below. The
>
=== message truncated ===


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