To amplify-the 1923 dimensions (OF and the associated Backstop distance) are
estimated values derived from a comparison of other AL park dimensions and
the HR Park Factors. Other factors equal, in the Lively Ball era a decrease
in HR park factor (as in 1922-23 when the HR Park Factor dropped from 230 to
102) is caused by a relative increase in average OF dimensions. These are
estimated dimensions derived to fit the HR data. They are not (unlike the
1921 dimensions) based on a Sanborn or other ballpark diagram.

Of all ballpark dimensions the HP-Backstop distances are the most uncertain
as they can vary not only because of movements of HP, but also as a result
of adding seats in front of the prior location of the backstop. The other
variable is simply error correction of prior listed backstop dimensions. In
then case of Shibe Park, trying to explain the difference between 86 ft and
90 ft distances for HP-Backstop is beyond the State of the Art in ballpark
analysis.

1923 RF at 355 (estimated) is the result of a HP move of 21 ft (back towards
the backstop). LF went from 334 (known) to 349 (estimated) an increase of
15 ft. Note that the 349 figure assumes the existence of a short fence
closing off the gap in the LF corner. No evidence to confirm or deny this
assumption has as yet been found. If the fence was not in place, the LF
dimension would have been 393. As a necessary corresponding element, the LF
line would have moved 15 to the left (i.e., closer to the 3B bleachers. Per
the 1921 Sanborn there was 21 ft of foul area between the LF foul line and
the junction of the 3B bleachers and the LF wall. This foul area portion of
the LF gap can also be seen in a 1917 photo of the LF corner of Shibe Park
from the George Bain collection from the Library of Congress (credit Steve
Steinberg with finding this one). Thus with RF at 355 and LF at 349, the LF
foul line would not have hit the 3B bleachers. Same story in the RF
corner-there was about 20 ft of foul area between the 1909-22 RF line and
the 1B bleachers-again from the 1921 Sanborn. The absence of a 1923 CF
(corner) dimension was my omission and has been corrected-it must be 529 if
the RF distance is 355 and the LF distance (at the LF perimeter wall) is
393. The impact on play of variations in the CF corner distance between 468
and 529 is zero.


Andrew Clem (see below for the full message) wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I had already taken into account your findings about the gaps on either
side of the 1913 LF bleachers, but I did not know how big the gap on
the CF side was. I suppose in the Deadball Era hardly any balls ever
reached the deep CF corner, but there must have been some strange plays
when the ball bounced around in the narrow gap in the LF corner! Are
you sure it was only 334 to that LF gate in 1917? Assuming those
bleachers were in the same place as the later permanent double-deck
ones, and taking into account the home plate shift after 1922, I would
guess about the same distance as RF during that period, 340 ft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
LF at 334 for the seasons 1913-22 with a fence in front of the LF corner was
determined (not assumed or guessed at) from the 1921 Sanborn that has the LF
bleachers shown. Without the fence it was 378 to the LF wall in the LF
corner, but only 334-335 to the front left corner of the LF bleachers.
There is no evidence that the 1925-26 double deck was the same depth as the
LF bleachers in 1913-25. It could have been the same or more or less.
Since HP was moved at the same time (1925-26), it is not possible to derive
the depth of the then new LF stands from the change in OF and backstop
dimensions The depth of the LF bleachers was determined from the 1921
Sanborn. Unfortunately, there is no corresponding Sanborn for 1926-29 that
would permit determining the depth of the 1926+ double deck stands. Given
the drop in the RF dimension from 1909 to 1930 (340 to 331), it may be
possible to estimated the required depth of the LF stands-assuming HP always
moved straight back or towards CF.


Mr. Clem continued:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As for the reduced distances to RF and LF in the 1926-1929 period, I
was speculating that the bullpens may have been installed in what had
been fair territory near the LF and RF corners -- not in center field.
The outfield fence could have made sharp bends near the power alleys and
remained the same as they had been from there to the CF corner. That
would explain why the CF dimension didn't change. In other words, the
outfield dimension changes did not necessarily result from moving home
plate. If the backstop had really been as far as 105 ft. as the result
of moving home plate forward 20 ft. during that period, wouldn't that
have drawn a lot of attention from commentators? And if the backstop
had been 90 ft. from 1923 to 1926, as I tend to think, it would have
been 110 ft. in 1926-1929, matching the original Forbes Field!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The possibility of the LF fence making sharp bends is contradicted by the
many photos of Shibe Park starting in 1926 after the construction of the
double-deck stands in LF. For example see Lost Ballparks (p. 183). As for
RF, there are only two ways to change the RF distance: (1) move HP, or (2)
move the RF wall or build an interior fence. Clearly the second did not
happen-again check the many available Shibe Park photos-none have any
interior fences in the 1926-60 time period. If HP did not move, then the RF
distance would be unchanged

By the way, there also exists substantial evidence that the original 1912
LF/RF dimensions (360/360) of Redland Field in Cincinnati are also wrong.
That is an issue for another time.

I hope this clears up at least some of the confusion surrounding Shibe Park
dimensions


-----Original Message-----
From: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 12:47 PM
To: SABRballparks@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SABRballparks] Digest Number 75

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Shibe Park
From: Andrew G Clem <baseball@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 01:03:47 -0500
From: Andrew G Clem <baseball@...>
Subject: Re: Shibe Park

Thank you for the detailed clarification, Mr. Selter. I had wondered
about the previous measurements of 360 ft. for early 1909, and in fact
I have similar suspicions about the same original measurements at
Crosley Field.

Some troubling inconsistencies remain, however. I had been using 90 ft.
as a backstop measurement for 1922-1942, but the revised figures
indicate that it was 86 from 1930 until 1942, when it briefly increased
to 90, even though none of the outfield dimensions changed that year.
How could that be? The net 9 ft. decrease of RF from 1922 to 1930 (from
340 down to 331, ignoring the intervening years) implies that home
plate moved 13 ft. forward, so if the backstop was 86 ft. as of 1930 it
would have been 73 ft. in 1922; if it was 90 ft. in 1930 (as I suspect)
it would have been 77 ft. in 1922. In either case, 85 ft. seems way off.

Also, the revised 355 RF figure for 1923-1925 sticks out like a sore
thumb. That would only be possible if home plate had shifted several
feet toward the left, like they did at Forbes Field but in the opposite
direction. Is there a record of that? Even if it did, the LF line would
have intersected with the grandstand at about 335-340 ft, not 349. And
why no CF figure for 1923? Something is amiss there.

I had already taken into account your findings about the gaps on either
side of the 1913 LF bleachers, but I did not know how big the gap on
the CF side was. I suppose in the Deadball Era hardly any balls ever
reached the deep CF corner, but there must have been some strange plays
when the ball bounced around in the narrow gap in the LF corner! Are
you sure it was only 334 to that LF gate in 1917? Assuming those
bleachers were in the same place as the later permanent double-deck
ones, and taking into account the home plate shift after 1922, I would
guess about the same distance as RF during that period, 340 ft.

As for the reduced distances to RF and LF in the 1926-1929 period, I
was speculating that the bullpens may have been installed in what had
been fair territory near the LF and RF corners -- not in center field.
The oufield fence could have made sharp bends near the power alleys and
remained the same as they had been from there to the CF corner. That
would explain why the CF dimension didn't change. In other words, the
outfield dimension changes did not necessarily result from moving home
plate. If the backstop had really been as far as 105 ft. as the result
of moving home plate forward 20 ft. during that period, wouldn't that
have drawn a lot of attention from commentators? And if the backstop
had been 90 ft. from 1923 to 1926, as I tend to think, it would have
been 110 ft. in 1926-1929, matching the original Forbes Field!

A lot to ponder... For the time being, I'll hold off revising the
dynamic diagram at http://andrewclem.com/Baseball/ShibePark.html

Thanks again for providing all those details!

Andrew