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Mickey Welch's victory total   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #64 of 715 |
Re: [SABR_Records] Mickey Welch's victory total

I checked the ICI sheets on this issue.  Unfortunately, it only clouded things more than they were.
 
It would have been helpful if JP had mentioned the date of the game, but I found it, May 1.  According to ICI, Rusie started and went 2/3 of a inning, striking out two and allowing a hit.  Welch came in and went 6-1/3, and Sharrott pitched the final two innings.  ICI gave Welch the win (toward a season record of 7-10) and Sharrott the save.
 
I'd add that the last (1996) Macmillan BASEBALL ENCYCLOPEDIA shows Welch at 6-9, the new ESPN BASEBALL ENCYCLOPEDIA has him at 5-9, and the STATS, Inc. ALL-TIME MAJOR LEAGUE HANDBOOK (1998) has 7-10, and the most recent (1989) edition of DAGUERREOTYPES has 5-9.
 
So, now we have the following versions of Welch's 1891 W-L record:
 
5-9 (MLB.com, baseball-reference.com, retrosheet.org, Nemec, TOTAL BASEBALL, ESPN, DAGUERREOTYPES)
5-11 (SPALDING GUIDE)
6-? (REACH GUIDE)
6-9 (Macmillan)
6-12 (Elias)
7-10 (ICI, STATS)
 
At this point, all we can safely say is that Welch won between 5-7 games and lost between 9-12.
 
Bill Deane
 
 

JP Caillault wrote:

Sorry to bother you with this, but in 1891 Mickey Welch pitched 14 CGs, of
which he won 5 and lost 9. The MLB.com, baseball-reference.com, and
retrosheet.org websites, as well as David Nemec's 19th century encyclopedia
and TB8, all have his record as 5 and 9.

Daguerreotypes (1968) has his record as 6 and 9.

Here're the relevant parts of the account of the game in question (from The
New York Times via ProQuest):

"Five pitchers took part in to-day's game, and the New Yorks won after an
interesting struggle. Clarke was injured in the opening inning and O'Rourke
was called in to catch. He couldn't hold Rusie's fast delivery, and Welch
was put in. ... In the third inning Gore hit for two bases, [go through most
of NY batting order until] Whistler, Bassett, and Welch followed with
singles ... In the eighth Welch was handled pretty roughly and Sharrott took
his place. ..."

Here's the line score:

NY - 0 0 6 3 0 0 0 0 2 - 11
Phi - 0 0 1 1 0 0 3 3 0 - 8

So, Welch came in VERY early, when it was still 0-0, and stayed until it
was, at worst, 9-8. Surely Rusie cannot have been credited with this win.
Was Sharrott given the win because he put out the fire in the 8th and shut
out the Phils in the 9th, i.e., what we'd call a save today? I know that is
similar to the reasoning Frank Williams applied in his famous article about
1900-1920 W-L decisions, but, well, I thought that only applied to
1900-1920.

And, finally, since W-L weren't such a big deal back then, and, hence,
authoritative decisions weren't made contemporaneously, who is it that
ultimately decided (or decides) who gets the W?

 

Dan Holmes replied:

For what it's worth, Elias, the official statistician of MLB, has Welch's 1891 record as 6-12.
 
And Jim Smith followed up:
 
Dan: The 1892 Spalding Guide showed Welch with 5-11 for the 1891 season. He was 1-4 vs Boston, 2-1 vs Brooklyn, 0-2 vs Cincinnati, 0-1 vs Cleveland, 0-3 vs Philadelphia and 2-0 vs Pittsburgh. The Reach guide didn't have a club breakdown, but showed Welch with Six (6) and didn't show any number of losses. See page 32 in Spalding & page 69 in Reach.
 
And "hatchersj" wrote:
 
The first thing we ought to do is determine who was awarded the
victory in such cases. If the award was proper under the rules and/or
practices of the day, then it should not be changed. Revisionism is
not what we should be all about.


Wed Jun 7, 2006 6:36 pm

dizdeane
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Message #64 of 715 |
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Sorry to bother you with this, but in 1891 Mickey Welch pitched 14 CGs, of which he won 5 and lost 9. The MLB.com, baseball-reference.com, and retrosheet.org...
Jean-Pierre CAILLAULT
harry_stovey
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Jun 6, 2006
5:05 am

For what it's worth, Elias, the official statistician of MLB, has Welch's 1891 record as 6-12. Dan Holmes ... From: SABR_Records@yahoogroups.com ...
Holmes, Dan
hof_boone
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Jun 6, 2006
1:25 pm

Dan: The 1892 Spalding Guide showed Welch with 5-11 for the 1891 season. He was 1-4 vs Boston, 2-1 vs Brooklyn, 0-2 vs Cincinnati, 0-1 vs Cleveland, 0-3 vs...
james smith
jassnuffy
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Jun 6, 2006
5:40 pm

I apologize for asking about yet another W-L decision from long, long ago, but, well, I want to try to understand the rationale behind awarding these Ws and...
Jean-Pierre CAILLAULT
harry_stovey
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Jun 7, 2006
4:12 am

Per ICI, Mullane got the win in this game (toward a season record of 23-26). Radbourn's sheet shows a 10-13 record, but there is another win pencilled in for...
Bill Deane
dizdeane
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Jun 8, 2006
2:19 am

... Radbourn 1891 is 11-13 in the first edition Baseball Encyclopedia, so the handwritten note is incorporated. Is that generally true of the handnotes that...
Paul Wendt
pgw02472
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Jun 8, 2006
7:17 am

I checked the ICI sheets on this issue. Unfortunately, it only clouded things more than they were. It would have been helpful if JP had mentioned the date of...
Bill Deane
dizdeane
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Jun 8, 2006
2:20 am

We could also, with a little effort, say what his record would most likely be under the rules of 2006....
Clem Comly
ccomly2003
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Jun 8, 2006
4:08 am
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