Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
SABR_Records · SABR Baseball Records Committee
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Show off your group to the world. Share a photo of your group with us.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Mickey Welch's victory total   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #63 of 715 |
Re: [SABR_Records] Charley Radbourn's victory total

Per ICI, Mullane got the win in this game (toward a season record of 23-26).  Radbourn's sheet shows a 10-13 record, but there is another win pencilled in for the game of June 30, making him 11-13.
 
Bill Deane
 
 
JP Caillault wrote:
 
I apologize for asking about yet another W-L decision from long, long ago,
but, well, I want to try to understand the rationale behind awarding these
Ws and Ls. The two games cited below make me think that whatever rationale
has been applied has not been applied consistently.

In the May 19, 1891, NL game between Cincinnati and Boston, Charley Radbourn
started for Cincy, helped stake them to a 7-2 lead (with a bunt single and a
three-run double in the top of the 3rd inning), then left for the day.
Radbourn pitched only 2 innings, but left with that 7-2 lead; Tony Mullane
pitched the rest of the way for Cincy. The line score looks like this:

Cin - 1 0 6 0 0 0 4 3 2 - 16
Bos - 2 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 1 - 7

Radbourn had 23 CGs in 1891. In those games his record was 11-12. He lost
a game in relief to Boston on July 10, making his record 11-13. That's the
official total, meaning he has NOT received credit for winning the May 19
game.

Now contrast that ruling (if you can) with the ruling applied in the
September 12, 1911, NL game between New York and Boston, in which Christy
Mathewson started (against Cy Young), pitched 2 innings, left with a 5-0
lead (which held up, 11-2, as Doc Crandall pitched the rest of the way), and
WAS credited with the win:

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B09122BSN1911.htm

In the two games I've cited, both Mathewson and Radbourn pitched 2 innings,
had 5 run leads when they left, and their teams won by 9. Mathewson got the
W, Radbourn didn't. Not to be disrespectful, but is this simply a case of
Frank Williams liking Mathewson?


Wed Jun 7, 2006 6:41 pm

dizdeane
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Forward
Message #63 of 715 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

Sorry to bother you with this, but in 1891 Mickey Welch pitched 14 CGs, of which he won 5 and lost 9. The MLB.com, baseball-reference.com, and retrosheet.org...
Jean-Pierre CAILLAULT
harry_stovey
Offline Send Email
Jun 6, 2006
5:05 am

For what it's worth, Elias, the official statistician of MLB, has Welch's 1891 record as 6-12. Dan Holmes ... From: SABR_Records@yahoogroups.com ...
Holmes, Dan
hof_boone
Offline Send Email
Jun 6, 2006
1:25 pm

Dan: The 1892 Spalding Guide showed Welch with 5-11 for the 1891 season. He was 1-4 vs Boston, 2-1 vs Brooklyn, 0-2 vs Cincinnati, 0-1 vs Cleveland, 0-3 vs...
james smith
jassnuffy
Offline Send Email
Jun 6, 2006
5:40 pm

I apologize for asking about yet another W-L decision from long, long ago, but, well, I want to try to understand the rationale behind awarding these Ws and...
Jean-Pierre CAILLAULT
harry_stovey
Offline Send Email
Jun 7, 2006
4:12 am

Per ICI, Mullane got the win in this game (toward a season record of 23-26). Radbourn's sheet shows a 10-13 record, but there is another win pencilled in for...
Bill Deane
dizdeane
Offline Send Email
Jun 8, 2006
2:19 am

... Radbourn 1891 is 11-13 in the first edition Baseball Encyclopedia, so the handwritten note is incorporated. Is that generally true of the handnotes that...
Paul Wendt
pgw02472
Online Now Send Email
Jun 8, 2006
7:17 am

I checked the ICI sheets on this issue. Unfortunately, it only clouded things more than they were. It would have been helpful if JP had mentioned the date of...
Bill Deane
dizdeane
Offline Send Email
Jun 8, 2006
2:20 am

We could also, with a little effort, say what his record would most likely be under the rules of 2006....
Clem Comly
ccomly2003
Offline Send Email
Jun 8, 2006
4:08 am
Advanced

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help