I bought this Colt replica several years ago at Dixon's in Kempton, PA.  They
did not know the make other that to say it was NOT a Uberti.  From what I can
find on the web it does not appear to be a Pietta either.  Anybody have any
ideas?  Thanks - Bill
http://cwhowell2.com/guns/guns.htm

Got a message last night from a fellow indicating that it is a Palmetto likely
imported before 2003 by Dixie Gun Works.

--- In Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <bill@...> wrote:
>
> I bought this Colt replica several years ago at Dixon's in Kempton, PA.  They
did not know the make other that to say it was NOT a Uberti.  From what I can
find on the web it does not appear to be a Pietta either.  Anybody have any
ideas?  Thanks - Bill
> http://cwhowell2.com/guns/guns.htm
>

> Got a message last night from a fellow indicating that it is a Palmetto likely
imported before 2003 by Dixie Gun Works.


Great that you have some information.  Dixie came to mind for me also, I didn't
know who manufactures theirs.  Good info to know.  Thanks for passing that on!

-Kees-

The following link will take you to an article that will answer  most of your
questions:

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPProofmarks.pdf



The firearm was made in 2003 (signified by the "BT"), and has Proof Marks for
both Gardone & Valtrompa (the PN) and Gardone (the logo to the left of the
PN).  Unfortunately, I didn't see anything that would indicate the
Manufacturer's Mark.  If you read the article and look the gun over carefully
you might find  it.



Good luck!



Phil Murray

NRA Appointed Master Training Counselor

Woodinville, WA











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a friend at work wanting to sell a Richland Arms Michigan 50 cal. It is
in good condition, I am wondering whay this might be worth.  It needs a good
cleaning and it took me a little to get a round to fire due to him letting it
set for awhile after the last time he used it.  Had to fire a couple of caps
through it to clear the firing hole.  Thanks for any help.  I just don't want to
over pay.

Phil,
Thanks for the link.  It did indeed confirm that I have a Palmetto.  The logo
stamp can clearly be seen next to the serial number:
http://cwhowell2.com/guns/c31-06.jpg
Bill

--- In Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com, philmurray@... wrote:
>
>
>
> The following link will take you to an article that will answer  most of your
questions:
>
> https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPProofmarks.pdf
>
>
>
> The firearm was made in 2003 (signified by the "BT"), and has Proof Marks for
both Gardone & Valtrompa (the PN) and Gardone (the logo to the left of the
PN).  Unfortunately, I didn't see anything that would indicate the
Manufacturer's Mark.  If you read the article and look the gun over carefully
you might find  it.
>
>
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>
> Phil Murray
>
> NRA Appointed Master Training Counselor
>
> Woodinville, WA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

My landlords grandkids were playing with it in sand box.  I asked about  it and
he gave it to me.  A taxi driver on the way to work offered me $25 for it.  Nope
I said and that was 54  years ago.

coffeyn-Jones


---------------------------------------------------
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A note from Saeco95687...:

  My landlords grandkids were playing with it in sand box.  I asked about  it and
he gave it to me.  A taxi driver on the way to work offered me $25 for it.  Nope
I said and that was 54  years ago.

coffeyn-Jones



	 View the photos:
    
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A Great Rev War Event and News from Fort Niagara!
~Daniel O'Connell

What could be better than the fantastic upcoming August 13/14 Rev War event at
Old Fort Niagara? Our beloved Fort Niagara is one of only a handful of quality
historic sites that every reenactor should pay homage to on a semi annual basis.
This year mark your calendars for Old Fort Niagara's "Soldiers of the
Revolution" August 13/14 event! Many of you know that Fort Niagara was a premier
British Garrison that was the heart of military operations in the New York,
Pennsylvania and Ohio Valleys as well as operations all along the Great Lakes
and St. Lawrence River, and Headquarters for the several British Great Lakes
Garrisons.
Niagara's Director Bob Emerson, Jerry Brubaker, Jason Buckley and Belinda
Patterson are going to great efforts to bring to the Rev War community one of
the best events of 2011, namely "Soldiers of the Revolution" August 13/14. This
"Soldiers of the Revolution, or SOR event, will bring together British,
Loyalists, Native and American reenactors representing our two great countries
(US and Canada) War of Independence or Rebellion. Kudos go out to Messrs Emerson
and Brubaker for once again promoting Rev War reenacting at Fort Niagara and
Jason Buckley is working tirelessly to bring to our historic community a Rev War
event that will be talked about for years to come. Belinda Patterson, Fort
Niagara's First Nations Interpreter brings to the public and to the historic
participants a fresh and authentic look into the lives and culture of the local
18th century Natives during the epochal conflict of the American Revolution. Mr.
Buckley and Ms. Patterson are relatively new additions to Old Fort Niagara, the
former continuing on with the work of stalwart Eric Bloomquist who has left Fort
Niagara after 22 devoted years as event coordinator and the charismatic and
knowledgeable Ms Patterson brings a depth to all Old Fort Niagara's 18th Century
events and Native programs!
The timing of Old Fort Niagara's "Soldiers of the Revolution" could not have
been better planned; August 13/14 offers moderate summer temperatures, a cool
breeze off Lake Ontario, comfortable sleeping either in tents, the two Redoubts
or the gun deck of the French Castle. There will be no premium on encampment
space. Further, the date of August 13/14 allows families to be able to get in
the best quality event at the end of summer without the conflict with back to
school or back to university start up dates. This will be the summer event of
2011.
The considerate management and staff of Old Fort Niagara is offering
participants the following amenities: Breakfast and Lunch Saturday and Sunday,
Modern Restrooms, Hot Showers* and Swimming Pool* nearby at moderate pool
entrance *fee. Firewood, a Saturday evening dance and an authentic Tavern. In
addition to encampment space for the participants (under canvas), the authentic
buildings at the fort will barrack 150 to 200
reenactors. This event
interprets the American Revolution on the New York frontier and involves
American, Crown, and Native American forces. Activities include tactical each
day, musket and artillery demonstrations, uniform programs and living history
camps. And again, OFN provides breakfasts and lunches.

Some of the Garrisons at Fort Niagara's Rev years:
34th Regiment of Foot
King's 8th Foot (longest serving regiment at Niagara and in Canada rev era)
47th Regiment of Foot
Butler's Rangers
Brandt's Volunteers
Royal Navy.
The Royal Artillery.
18th Regiment of Foot.
53rd Regiment of Foot.
84th /or Royal Highland Emigrants/ Regiment of Foot.
Hesse-Hanau Jaegers.
Hesse-Hanau Artillery.
The King's Royal Regiment of New York.
The Loyal Foresters.
Provincial Marine

Although no Rebel or American troops occupied Fort Niagara (other than
prisoners) a great many plans to capture and harass Fort Niagara was foremost
with the American Forces. One such ambitious plan was the Sullivan Campaign of
1779. And as such it is of the utmost importance for the Soldiers of the
Revolution to have an appreciated representation of Continental and State troops
at this fantastic event. American and Crown Forces are encouraged to inquire and
register as soon as possible for Fort Niagara's August 13/14 "Soldiers of the
Revolution" event. Early arrivals on August 12 are welcomed.              
www.oldfortniagara.org

Fort Niagara served as the Loyalist base in New York during the American
Revolutionary War for Colonel John Butler and his Butler's Rangers as well as
regular British Troops effected many raids throughout New York and Pennsylvania.
If you truly love the history of New York, Pennsylvania, the Great Lakes and
Canada it is time you returned to Fort Niagara. It's time to come home again and
reestablish your friendships and bonds in the Rev War community. To register or
for more information, contact event coordinator Jason Buckley at:
Get_jason@... or Ray@...

I have read on the net, my Grandpa has told me, my Dad has told me...and I have
my own way, BUT I was wondering how you guys that have had traditional BP rifles
for years..clean them to insure that they last for a LONG time?
This is how I do it: I dissasemble my rifle, I get a hot pot of water and add a
cup of murphys oil soap, I submerse the nipple end of my rifle barrel in the hot
pot of water. I then use my ram rod with my cleaning jag and patch and run it up
and down the barrel causing a " piston action". I do work the ramrod up and down
about 30 or 40 times. Then i pour out the dirty water from the pot and replace
it with clean hot,water. I repeat the piston action about 10 times or so.I pour
out the water. I then run a dry patch up Then I put it on my heater vent OR set
it in the sun to dry. After the barrel is good and dry..I run a patch with T/C
bore butter up and down it..then another dry patch. then I oil the the outside
with Rem oil and re- assemble.
HOWEVER..I do see some brown residue when running a dry patch in the barrel
after about an hour or so  after cleaning. It doesn't seem like rust.. not sure
what it is. Could it be the bore butter drying? Or maybe the remnants of the
murphys oil soap?
Anyhow I would love to read your comments on this..on the net I've read
everything from windex to plain ol' water and nothing else. OH and don't forget
the brake clean, carb cleaner and machine oil..lol
I guess I just wanna know if I'm in the ballpark of cleaning my BP the correct
way to ensure they're lasting for a long time.
thanks!

At home:
I have one of those massaging shower heads on a hose. I use it to fill the
barrel up with water, and let it drain out of the touch hole. I keep filling the
barrel up and letting it drain out, until it runs clear. Then I swab it out with
a hank of tow till it comes out clean. I like the tow, because I can rinse it
out and use it again and again. Then I swab the barrel with an oiled piece of
tow. I then pull the lock off. I scrub the breach, around the touch hole with a
chunk of tow, and oil the outside of the barrel and all the other iron parts on
my fusil. Then I rub down the inside and outside of the lock with a hank of tow
as well. Every 2 or 3 cleanings, I may use a fouling scraper to get crud out of
the bottom of my barrel, before I swab it with tow. I may use a scraper sooner,
if (for some reason) I let my gun sit dirty for more than a day.

In the field:
Basically the same way, but I pour whatever water, at whatever temperature,
happens to be handy. I may not get it flushed as well as at home, but I make up
by swabbing a time or two extra.
 
I do not use soap. I treat my guns (even though they are steel, not iron
barrels) as one would grandma's cast iron skillet. Just hot water and elbow
grease. There are those who have both theories for and against that idea... but
that's how I do it. Also, after my tow gets too nasty, even after repeated
washings, it becomes an oiling piece, instead of a cleaning piece. After it gets
too funk-ified for that, it becomes over shot wadding.
--- On Sun, 1/16/11, dragon <fourwheelhorseman@...> wrote:


From: dragon <fourwheelhorseman@...>
Subject: [Muzzleloaders] Ok OK...How do YOU clean your BP rifle?
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 16, 2011, 12:58 PM


 



I have read on the net, my Grandpa has told me, my Dad has told me...and I have
my own way, BUT I was wondering how you guys that have had traditional BP rifles
for years..clean them to insure that they last for a LONG time?
This is how I do it: I dissasemble my rifle, I get a hot pot of water and add a
cup of murphys oil soap, I submerse the nipple end of my rifle barrel in the hot
pot of water. I then use my ram rod with my cleaning jag and patch and run it up
and down the barrel causing a " piston action". I do work the ramrod up and down
about 30 or 40 times. Then i pour out the dirty water from the pot and replace
it with clean hot,water. I repeat the piston action about 10 times or so.I pour
out the water. I then run a dry patch up Then I put it on my heater vent OR set
it in the sun to dry. After the barrel is good and dry..I run a patch with T/C
bore butter up and down it..then another dry patch. then I oil the the outside
with Rem oil and re- assemble.
HOWEVER..I do see some brown residue when running a dry patch in the barrel
after about an hour or so after cleaning. It doesn't seem like rust.. not sure
what it is. Could it be the bore butter drying? Or maybe the remnants of the
murphys oil soap?
Anyhow I would love to read your comments on this..on the net I've read
everything from windex to plain ol' water and nothing else. OH and don't forget
the brake clean, carb cleaner and machine oil..lol
I guess I just wanna know if I'm in the ballpark of cleaning my BP the correct
way to ensure they're lasting for a long time.
thanks!











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If the barrel can be removed from the stock easily, I use plastic tubing to a
bucket of water and placed on the nipple and using a tight jag and patch combo,
plunge up a down a few times changing the water. A drop or two of Murphy's goes
a long ways. It does not matter the temp of the water to me, I prefer warm
because it feels to good to my hands. I use Ballistol on a several patches to
oil the bore. I remove the nipple and give it a good cleaning and use compress
air and a small welder's wire to clean it out.

Waterless I use a product from http://www.paulcompany.com/painless.htm and
several other products from the same company. Works great at the range or in the
field. I do varmint hunt with a .32 cal barrel and this product works great.
This also works well with barrels that do not remove easily from the stock. I
have a flintlock with a 43" swamped barrel and I do not allow it near water.

Once a year I use a diamond hone to touch up the edges of the nipple to were it
was last year. I have a T/C Scout pistol with an unusual nipple and this works
well!

I used to use OX-Yoke and bore butter. I thought I had a heart attack when I
went into the safe and tried to push a patch down a double barrel .54 caliber
rifle. I reached for Ballistol and it took a better part of a day to remove iron
oxide from the two barrels. To this day, this has not happened again!

Some guys use WD-40. Makes sense since it displaces water. I don't like it
because it attracts dust.

take care,

r1kk1

Dragon:

The old time way is to just use water. I just plug the touch hole/nipple with a
toothpick, and pour some water into the bore.  Then I place my thumb over the
muzzle (very not loaded before even starting!) and rock the firelock up and down
a few times, rotating to make sure the entire bore is rinsed.  Then pour out the
cruddy black water and repeat from the beginning a couple of times.  At this
point you've already removed 80% of the fouling.

Now it's time for tow as Josh described, finishing off by coating the bore with
oil.

I don't think any sort of soap or Windex is needed unless you're putting
petroleum based lube down the barrel; maybe not even then.

Ken


> To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
> From: lordwilson83@...
> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 15:00:10 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] Ok OK...How do YOU clean your BP rifle?
>
> At home:
> I have one of those massaging shower heads on a hose. I use it to fill the
barrel up with water, and let it drain out of the touch hole. I keep filling the
barrel up and letting it drain out, until it runs clear. Then I swab it out with
a hank of tow till it comes out clean. I like the tow, because I can rinse it
out and use it again and again. Then I swab the barrel with an oiled piece of
tow. I then pull the lock off. I scrub the breach, around the touch hole with a
chunk of tow, and oil the outside of the barrel and all the other iron parts on
my fusil. Then I rub down the inside and outside of the lock with a hank of tow
as well. Every 2 or 3 cleanings, I may use a fouling scraper to get crud out of
the bottom of my barrel, before I swab it with tow. I may use a scraper sooner,
if (for some reason) I let my gun sit dirty for more than a day.
>
> In the field:
> Basically the same way, but I pour whatever water, at whatever temperature,
happens to be handy. I may not get it flushed as well as at home, but I make up
by swabbing a time or two extra.
>
> I do not use soap. I treat my guns (even though they are steel, not iron
barrels) as one would grandma's cast iron skillet. Just hot water and elbow
grease. There are those who have both theories for and against that idea... but
that's how I do it. Also, after my tow gets too nasty, even after repeated
washings, it becomes an oiling piece, instead of a cleaning piece. After it gets
too funk-ified for that, it becomes over shot wadding.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry,
I forgot to mention... I use sweet oil (olive oil) on my guns. There is lots of
historical vidence for this. I also use bear oil on occasion, and mutton (sheep)
tallow when grease is called for.

--- On Mon, 1/17/11, Ken Nellis <knellis@...> wrote:


From: Ken Nellis <knellis@...>
Subject: RE: [Muzzleloaders] Ok OK...How do YOU clean your BP rifle?
To: muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 17, 2011, 6:46 PM


 




Dragon:

The old time way is to just use water. I just plug the touch hole/nipple with a
toothpick, and pour some water into the bore. Then I place my thumb over the
muzzle (very not loaded before even starting!) and rock the firelock up and down
a few times, rotating to make sure the entire bore is rinsed. Then pour out the
cruddy black water and repeat from the beginning a couple of times. At this
point you've already removed 80% of the fouling.

Now it's time for tow as Josh described, finishing off by coating the bore with
oil.

I don't think any sort of soap or Windex is needed unless you're putting
petroleum based lube down the barrel; maybe not even then.

Ken

> To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
> From: lordwilson83@...
> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 15:00:10 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] Ok OK...How do YOU clean your BP rifle?
>
> At home:
> I have one of those massaging shower heads on a hose. I use it to fill the
barrel up with water, and let it drain out of the touch hole. I keep filling the
barrel up and letting it drain out, until it runs clear. Then I swab it out with
a hank of tow till it comes out clean. I like the tow, because I can rinse it
out and use it again and again. Then I swab the barrel with an oiled piece of
tow. I then pull the lock off. I scrub the breach, around the touch hole with a
chunk of tow, and oil the outside of the barrel and all the other iron parts on
my fusil. Then I rub down the inside and outside of the lock with a hank of tow
as well. Every 2 or 3 cleanings, I may use a fouling scraper to get crud out of
the bottom of my barrel, before I swab it with tow. I may use a scraper sooner,
if (for some reason) I let my gun sit dirty for more than a day.
>
> In the field:
> Basically the same way, but I pour whatever water, at whatever temperature,
happens to be handy. I may not get it flushed as well as at home, but I make up
by swabbing a time or two extra.
>
> I do not use soap. I treat my guns (even though they are steel, not iron
barrels) as one would grandma's cast iron skillet. Just hot water and elbow
grease. There are those who have both theories for and against that idea... but
that's how I do it. Also, after my tow gets too nasty, even after repeated
washings, it becomes an oiling piece, instead of a cleaning piece. After it gets
too funk-ified for that, it becomes over shot wadding.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a Charleville replica, so the barrel comes out easy.  a tooth pick in the
vent, and cold water down the muzzle, and let it sit for 10 minutes or so.  Plug
the muzzle and shake, drain, repeat until the water comes out clean.  Sweet Oil
patches until clean and dry patches after.  I use a 50/50 mix of beeswax and
sweet oil on both the barrel (outside) and stock, and buff it before I use it,
it makes a good preservative.  It lives in a gun sock made from an old wool
blanket between events, and while it isn't "Armory Bright" there isn"t any rust,
and it doesn't misfire through a parade!


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: dragon
   To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 12:58 PM
   Subject: [Muzzleloaders] Ok OK...How do YOU clean your BP rifle?



   I have read on the net, my Grandpa has told me, my Dad has told me...and I
have my own way, BUT I was wondering how you guys that have had traditional BP
rifles for years..clean them to insure that they last for a LONG time?
   This is how I do it: I dissasemble my rifle, I get a hot pot of water and add
a cup of murphys oil soap, I submerse the nipple end of my rifle barrel in the
hot pot of water. I then use my ram rod with my cleaning jag and patch and run
it up and down the barrel causing a " piston action". I do work the ramrod up
and down about 30 or 40 times. Then i pour out the dirty water from the pot and
replace it with clean hot,water. I repeat the piston action about 10 times or
so.I pour out the water. I then run a dry patch up Then I put it on my heater
vent OR set it in the sun to dry. After the barrel is good and dry..I run a
patch with T/C bore butter up and down it..then another dry patch. then I oil
the the outside with Rem oil and re- assemble.
   HOWEVER..I do see some brown residue when running a dry patch in the barrel
after about an hour or so after cleaning. It doesn't seem like rust.. not sure
what it is. Could it be the bore butter drying? Or maybe the remnants of the
murphys oil soap?
   Anyhow I would love to read your comments on this..on the net I've read
everything from windex to plain ol' water and nothing else. OH and don't forget
the brake clean, carb cleaner and machine oil..lol
   I guess I just wanna know if I'm in the ballpark of cleaning my BP the correct
way to ensure they're lasting for a long time.
   thanks!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

300+ PHOTOS!~ Fort Niagara/British Brigade Event 2003

In 2003 Old Fort Niagara and our King's 8th Hosted/Sponsored the British Brigade
Garrison Weekend. I recorded the weekend with cameras purchased at the gift shop
having forgot my Canon. I had the negatives transferred to digital and although
not digital camera quality I'm confident you will enjoy the photos, they are
large and clear. Two galleries:

http://gallery.me.com/kings8th#100307
http://gallery.me.com/kings8th#100315

> HOWEVER..I do see some brown residue when running a dry patch in the
> barrel after about an hour or so  after cleaning. It doesn't seem
> like rust.. not sure what it is. Could it be the bore butter drying?
> Or maybe the remnants of the murphys oil soap?

That light brown IS rust.  This seems to be extra strong when the barrel is
cleaned with hot water so the water evaporates better.  What I have learned from
other, more experienced shooters is not to use hot water, but run a patch soaked
with denatured alcohol down the tube several times, immediately after cleaning. 
The alcohol displaces the water and then evaporates to leave a truly dry barrel.
Be sure it is the 95% - 99% denatured alcohol, not rubbing alcohol.  The later
is mixed with water which defeats what you are trying to do.

I then grease with Greasco or use olive oil to seal the dry metal.

Another use for the alcohol - run a patche soaked with it down the bore prior to
loading.  That cleans out the oil so you don't have the chance of the powder
being contaminated.

Give it a try the next time you clean your guns.  It sure helped with mine. 
Before, once I had the flash rust after cleaning, even if I scrubbed the barrel
and had clean patches coming out I would have the rust again if I ran a patch
down a week later.  I don't have that any more.

-Kees-

this is an inquiry about NON Military smoothbore flintlocks

I've a friend who shoots his trade gun without a fabric patch because he
contends he can't document that natives, hunters, NON military flintlocks used a
patched ball.

On one hand I understand his contention but on the other I find it hard to
believe that NON military people didn't use the advantage of a ball patched with
fabric.

Any views on this?

Daniel

On my other hard drive (i'll have to dig around to find the info) but I have
quite a bit of documentation concerning wadding guns. Most smoothbore guns were
wadded in the period. I cant say that all were, but from the written accounts,
and archeological evidence (finding loaded barrels and guns in an archeological
dig) the most common practice seems to be wadding with green grass, linen tow,
felt wads from old hats, etc.
 
Of course, military and militia whether they had an issued military musket, or
brought their own privately purchased military styled musket, fusil, fowling
piece, etc. commonly used a paper wadded cartridge.
 


--- On Sun, 2/20/11, danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...> wrote:


From: danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...>
Subject: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 5:07 AM


 



this is an inquiry about NON Military smoothbore flintlocks

I've a friend who shoots his trade gun without a fabric patch because he
contends he can't document that natives, hunters, NON military flintlocks used a
patched ball.

On one hand I understand his contention but on the other I find it hard to
believe that NON military people didn't use the advantage of a ball patched with
fabric.

Any views on this?

Daniel











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you don't patch, you lose compression.  If you lose compression, you lose
power.  That's why car engines have piston rings, of course.  The ancestors
might have been uneducated, but they had common sense and understood mechanical
things.  If you don't patch the ball, you need a wad to keep the ball in place. 
I doubt the ancestors would skip the patch for the wad.

J.


----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Wilson
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/20/2011 12:45:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?



On my other hard drive (i'll have to dig around to find the info) but I have
quite a bit of documentation concerning wadding guns. Most smoothbore guns were
wadded in the period. I cant say that all were, but from the written accounts,
and archeological evidence (finding loaded barrels and guns in an archeological
dig) the most common practice seems to be wadding with green grass, linen tow,
felt wads from old hats, etc.
Â
Of course, military and militia whether they had an issued military musket, or
brought their own privately purchased military styled musket, fusil, fowling
piece, etc. commonly used a paper wadded cartridge.
Â

--- On Sun, 2/20/11, danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...> wrote:

From: danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...>
Subject: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 5:07 AM

Â

this is an inquiry about NON Military smoothbore flintlocks

I've a friend who shoots his trade gun without a fabric patch because he
contends he can't document that natives, hunters, NON military flintlocks used a
patched ball.

On one hand I understand his contention but on the other I find it hard to
believe that NON military people didn't use the advantage of a ball patched with
fabric.

Any views on this?

Daniel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Off hand I found these quotes pertaining to wadding and a roundball or "ball
fitted to the gun" and left out quotes pertaining to guns loaded with smaller
diameter shot. Again, we have plenty of other refferences to wadding with paper,
beaver felt, grass, pieces of wool blankets, and especilly tow.
 
*DISCLAIMER* This information was compiled by Karl Koster, not me, I'm just
reproducing bits and pieces as appropriate.
 
 
To Shrimpton Hutchinson Esq.
SIR,
You are hereby ordered and directed, to compleat yourself with ARMS and
Accoutrements, by the 12th Instant, upon failure thereof, you are liable to a
FINE of THREE POUNDS; and for every Sixty Days after, a FINE OF SIX POUNDS,
agreable to Law.
Articles of Equipment,
A good Fire-Arm, with a Steel or Iron Ram-Rod, and a Spring to retain the same,
a Worm, Priming wire and Brash, and a Bayonet fitted to your GUN, a Scabbard and
Belt therefor, and a Cutting Sword, or a Tomahawk or Hatchet, a Poach containing
a Cartridge Box, that will hold fifteen Rounds of Cartridges at least, a hundred
Buck Shot, a Jack-Knife and Tow for Wadding, six Flints, one pound powder, forty
Leaden Balls fitted to your GUN, a Knapsack and Blanket a Canteen or Wooden
Bottle sufficient to hold one Quart.

~ above from the Emmet Collection of the New York Public Library
 
"...it is the General's orders, that none of the men load with cartridges upon
their regimental parades but from these powder-horns; and to have wadding above
and below the ball, to keep both powder and ball firm in their pieces."
~ John Knox, Point Levi, 1759
 
 
"...discharged his piece at him the ball Enterd About an Inch from the middle of
his back...the very wad Enterd the wound."
~ John McKay, Rainy Lake, Minnesota, 1793
 
..."Each hunter then filled his mouth with balls, which he drops into the gun
without wadding..."
(which may imply wadding being used) ~Paul Kane, Wandering of an Artist, page
85, 1830-50s
 
"The Yellow Head landed, during the morning, to fire at a deer, which was seen
grazing on a meadow, at some distance. He approached cautiously, but was
unsuccessful in the shot he fired. What most excited our surprise, was the
rapidity with which he reloaded and fired again, before the deer had got without
the range of his shot. This was effected without the use of wadding to separate
the powder from the ball."
~ Henry Rowe-Schoolcraft, Minnesota, 1832
 
"The musket with which this nefarious act was done, is said to have been loaned
to him from the guard-house at Fort Brady. Dr. Bagg pronounced the ball an
ounce-ball, such as is employed in the U. S. service. The wad was the torn loaf
of a hymn book."
~ General Cass on the John Tanner shooting incident of 1836
 
"..had shot her in the back...she thought if she could only have this bullet out
she would not have such pain. So Wacouta opened a knife and gave it to her. She
made an incision and the bullet, together with a bunch of grass, fell to the
floor and rolled away. They always wadded their guns with grass."
~ Mary E. Schwandt Schmidt Recollection,.German Pioneer Accounts of the Great
Sioux Uprising of 1862




--- On Sun, 2/20/11, The Backwards Turtle <backwardsturtle2@...>
wrote:


From: The Backwards Turtle <backwardsturtle2@...>
Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 7:25 PM


If you don't patch, you lose compression.  If you lose compression, you lose
power.  That's why car engines have piston rings, of course.  The ancestors
might have been uneducated, but they had common sense and understood mechanical
things.  If you don't patch the ball, you need a wad to keep the ball in place. 
I doubt the ancestors would skip the patch for the wad.

J.


----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Wilson
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/20/2011 12:45:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?


 
On my other hard drive (i'll have to dig around to find the info) but I have
quite a bit of documentation concerning wadding guns. Most smoothbore guns were
wadded in the period. I cant say that all were, but from the written accounts,
and archeological evidence (finding loaded barrels and guns in an archeological
dig) the most common practice seems to be wadding with green grass, linen tow,
felt wads from old hats, etc.
Â
Of course, military and militia whether they had an issued military musket, or
brought their own privately purchased military styled musket, fusil, fowling
piece, etc. commonly used a paper wadded cartridge.
Â

--- On Sun, 2/20/11, danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...> wrote:

From: danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...>
Subject: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 5:07 AM

 

this is an inquiry about NON Military smoothbore flintlocks

I've a friend who shoots his trade gun without a fabric patch because he
contends he can't document that natives, hunters, NON military flintlocks used a
patched ball.

On one hand I understand his contention but on the other I find it hard to
believe that NON military people didn't use the advantage of a ball patched with
fabric.

Any views on this?

Daniel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

http://www.bp-outdoors.com/muzzleloader.html . . . Muzzleloaders, Shooting,
Hunting and Outdoor resources. Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daniel:

In all of my reading I don't remember ever running across a reference to
patching a ball in a smoothbore until the modern ML revival in the early
seventies.  I just don't think it was done, at least not commonly.

Perhaps the assumption that a smoothbore can't possibly perform without a patch
needs some validation.  Here is a target I shot with an 11 bore flintlock, bench
rest:
http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/tt114/stonearabia/Early%20Rustic%20Arms%20Hud\
son%20Valley%20Fowler%20kit/?action=view¤t=011.jpg
Not up to a rifle's standard, no doubt, but minute of Bambi anyway.  This was at
about thirty seven yards.  Bore is .746; ball .735.

Ken


> To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
> From: todanieloconnell@...
> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 10:07:38 +0000
> Subject: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?
>
> this is an inquiry about NON Military smoothbore flintlocks
>
> I've a friend who shoots his trade gun without a fabric patch because he
contends he can't document that natives, hunters, NON military flintlocks used a
patched ball.
>
> On one hand I understand his contention but on the other I find it hard to
believe that NON military people didn't use the advantage of a ball patched with
fabric.
>
> Any views on this?
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> http://www.bp-outdoors.com/muzzleloader.html . . . Muzzleloaders, Shooting,
Hunting and Outdoor resources. Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One wonders how they defined "leaden balls fitted to your GUN?"  Loose fit for
speed in loading?  Tight fit?  A "Cartridge Box" means paper cartridges, which
are, in essence, paper-patched round balls.

J.


----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Wilson
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/20/2011 8:27:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?



Off hand I found these quotes pertaining to wadding and a roundball or "ball
fitted to the gun" and left out quotes pertaining to guns loaded with smaller
diameter shot. Again, we have plenty of other refferences to wadding with paper,
beaver felt, grass, pieces of wool blankets, and especilly tow.

*DISCLAIMER* This information was compiled by Karl Koster, not me, I'm just
reproducing bits and pieces as appropriate.


To Shrimpton Hutchinson Esq.
SIR,
You are hereby ordered and directed, to compleat yourself with ARMS and
Accoutrements, by the 12th Instant, upon failure thereof, you are liable to a
FINE of THREE POUNDS; and for every Sixty Days after, a FINE OF SIX POUNDS,
agreable to Law.
Articles of Equipment,
A good Fire-Arm, with a Steel or Iron Ram-Rod, and a Spring to retain the same,
a Worm, Priming wire and Brash, and a Bayonet fitted to your GUN, a Scabbard and
Belt therefor, and a Cutting Sword, or a Tomahawk or Hatchet, a Poach containing
a Cartridge Box, that will hold fifteen Rounds of Cartridges at least, a hundred
Buck Shot, a Jack-Knife and Tow for Wadding, six Flints, one pound powder, forty
Leaden Balls fitted to your GUN, a Knapsack and Blanket a Canteen or Wooden
Bottle sufficient to hold one Quart.

~ above from the Emmet Collection of the New York Public Library

"...it is the General's orders, that none of the men load with cartridges upon
their regimental parades but from these powder-horns; and to have wadding above
and below the ball, to keep both powder and ball firm in their pieces."
~ John Knox, Point Levi, 1759


"...discharged his piece at him the ball Enterd About an Inch from the middle of
his back...the very wad Enterd the wound."
~ John McKay, Rainy Lake, Minnesota, 1793

..."Each hunter then filled his mouth with balls, which he drops into the gun
without wadding..."
(which may imply wadding being used) ~Paul Kane, Wandering of an Artist, page
85, 1830-50s

"The Yellow Head landed, during the morning, to fire at a deer, which was seen
grazing on a meadow, at some distance. He approached cautiously, but was
unsuccessful in the shot he fired. What most excited our surprise, was the
rapidity with which he reloaded and fired again, before the deer had got without
the range of his shot. This was effected without the use of wadding to separate
the powder from the ball."
~ Henry Rowe-Schoolcraft, Minnesota, 1832

"The musket with which this nefarious act was done, is said to have been loaned
to him from the guard-house at Fort Brady. Dr. Bagg pronounced the ball an
ounce-ball, such as is employed in the U. S. service. The wad was the torn loaf
of a hymn book."
~ General Cass on the John Tanner shooting incident of 1836

"..had shot her in the back...she thought if she could only have this bullet out
she would not have such pain. So Wacouta opened a knife and gave it to her. She
made an incision and the bullet, together with a bunch of grass, fell to the
floor and rolled away. They always wadded their guns with grass."
~ Mary E. Schwandt Schmidt Recollection,.German Pioneer Accounts of the Great
Sioux Uprising of 1862

--- On Sun, 2/20/11, The Backwards Turtle <backwardsturtle2@...>
wrote:

From: The Backwards Turtle <backwardsturtle2@...>
Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 7:25 PM

If you don't patch, you lose compression.  If you lose compression, you lose
power.  That's why car engines have piston rings, of course.  The ancestors
might have been uneducated, but they had common sense and understood mechanical
things.  If you don't patch the ball, you need a wad to keep the ball in place. 
I doubt the ancestors would skip the patch for the wad.

J.

----- Original Message -----
From: Josh Wilson
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/20/2011 12:45:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?


On my other hard drive (i'll have to dig around to find the info) but I have
quite a bit of documentation concerning wadding guns. Most smoothbore guns were
wadded in the period. I cant say that all were, but from the written accounts,
and archeological evidence (finding loaded barrels and guns in an archeological
dig) the most common practice seems to be wadding with green grass, linen tow,
felt wads from old hats, etc.
Â
Of course, military and militia whether they had an issued military musket, or
brought their own privately purchased military styled musket, fusil, fowling
piece, etc. commonly used a paper wadded cartridge.
Â

--- On Sun, 2/20/11, danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...> wrote:

From: danieloconnell <todanieloconnell@...>
Subject: [Muzzleloaders] non military guns: patch with ball?
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 5:07 AM

Â

this is an inquiry about NON Military smoothbore flintlocks

I've a friend who shoots his trade gun without a fabric patch because he
contends he can't document that natives, hunters, NON military flintlocks used a
patched ball.

On one hand I understand his contention but on the other I find it hard to
believe that NON military people didn't use the advantage of a ball patched with
fabric.

Any views on this?

Daniel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

http://www.bp-outdoors.com/muzzleloader.html . . . Muzzleloaders, Shooting,
Hunting and Outdoor resources. Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Quote: If you don't patch, you lose compression. If you lose compression, you
lose
power. That's why car engines have piston rings, of course. The ancestors
might have been uneducated, but they had common sense and understood mechanical
things. If you don't patch the ball, you need a wad to keep the ball in place.
I doubt the ancestors would skip the patch for the wad


......................................................................


I came across a bullet that was the precursor of the minnie bullet yesterday
while searching. It is W.W. Greener's self expanding bullet. It is an ovate ball
with the back hollowed out for inserting a wooden plug resembling a rivet. The
purpose being so that the ball may expand in the barrel when fired to
compleately fill the grooves. interesting it was but I cannot find any more info
on it other that it was deemed too difficult to produce during the time yet
found very effective in use. Thus the opportunity to develop it was squandered.
Just a bit of insight regarding this segment of the thread. Thanks for reading.

Hey Ken,  Nice group there, 75 cal. sounds like a Brown Bess... At the bottom of
your photo of the target you say that you didn't patch the ball, but you DID
have a wad on top of the powder charge, a greased wad on top of that, and
another wad on top of the ball (to keep it from rolling out the muzzle when you
tip the barrel downward.) Wouldn't a cloth patched ball have done the same... ?

Back in the day when they used paper "cartridges", they bit the ball end off the
"cartridge" and held it in their mouth while dumping the powder charge down the
barrel, then "wadded up" the empty paper cylinder (ever wonder where that phrase
comes from... ?)  and tamped it down on top of the charge, finally rammed down
the (wet from spit, or tobacco juice) down in top of the powder. Since we
discovered lead poisoning that practice has fallen out of favor.

Paul from the Virgin Islands, with a 75 cal. and a 69 cal. smooth bore musket at
my side.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well,ok,so I'm a bit on the green side,only been shooting BP for a few years
now,but wasnt the question about the smoothbores ? Patching would do no good for
these,as the idea of the patch was to fit down in the grooves or rifling to help
give the ball spin,for more distance and accuracy,but with no riflings in a
smoothbore,other than some wadding to hold the ball in,it would do no
good.       hillbilly



--- On Tue, 2/22/11, preliner <preliner@...> wrote:

From: preliner <preliner@...>
Subject: [Muzzleloaders] Re: Nonmilitary guns:patch with ball
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 2:40 AM

Quote: If you don't patch, you lose compression. If you lose compression, you
lose
power. That's why car engines have piston rings, of course. The ancestors
might have been uneducated, but they had common sense and understood mechanical
things. If you don't patch the ball, you need a wad to keep the ball in place.
I doubt the ancestors would skip the patch for the wad


......................................................................


I came across a bullet that was the precursor of the minnie bullet yesterday
while searching. It is W.W. Greener's self expanding bullet. It is an ovate ball
with the back hollowed out for inserting a wooden plug resembling a rivet. The
purpose being so that the ball may expand in the barrel when fired to
compleately fill the grooves. interesting it was but I cannot find any more info
on it other that it was deemed too difficult to produce during the time yet
found very effective in use. Thus the opportunity to develop it was squandered.
Just a bit of insight regarding this segment of the thread. Thanks for reading.



------------------------------------

http://www.bp-outdoors.com/muzzleloader.html . . . Muzzleloaders, Shooting,
Hunting and Outdoor resources. Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul:

Exactly right; no patch.  I used a nitro card wad, a 1/2" lubed cushion wad, and
an overshot wad over the bullet.  I ought to fire a few PRBs for comparison
purposes.  Although I have used many blank paper cartridges at reenactments, I
have never actually used a LIVE round ball paper cartridge. I ought to shot a
target with those as well.  (Maybe not all on the same day; the recoil from a
700 grain bullet is significant.)

The reason for my post was to say that the assumption that the ball must be
patched in a smoothbore in order to get decent results may be flawed.

I think the context of the original question had to do with which practices were
documented, and which were not.  I don't remember ever reading that PRBs were
used in smoothbores before, say, 1970.

All the best,

Ken


> To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
> From: reeladventuresstjohn@...
> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 06:27:23 -0800
> Subject: [Muzzleloaders] Re: non military guns: patch with ball?
>
> Hey Ken,  Nice group there, 75 cal. sounds like a Brown Bess... At the bottom
of your photo of the target you say that you didn't patch the ball, but you DID
have a wad on top of the powder charge, a greased wad on top of that, and
another wad on top of the ball (to keep it from rolling out the muzzle when you
tip the barrel downward.) Wouldn't a cloth patched ball have done the same... ?
>
> Back in the day when they used paper "cartridges", they bit the ball end off
the "cartridge" and held it in their mouth while dumping the powder charge down
the barrel, then "wadded up" the empty paper cylinder (ever wonder where that
phrase comes from... ?)  and tamped it down on top of the charge, finally rammed
down the (wet from spit, or tobacco juice) down in top of the powder. Since we
discovered lead poisoning that practice has fallen out of favor.
>
> Paul from the Virgin Islands, with a 75 cal. and a 69 cal. smooth bore musket
at my side.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Preliner:

I don't own a chronograph, but "have read" that someone somewhere compared the
velocity of a rifle ball with and without the patch.  His result was that the
difference was insignificant, and the writer's conclusion was that the real
utility of the patch was to grip the rifling, not act as a gas seal.  As I say,
I lack instrumentation, so I can't prove or disprove.

Anyway, my recollection is that the original query had to do with what was and
was not documentable??

Ken


> To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
> From: preliner@...
> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:40:50 +0000
> Subject: [Muzzleloaders] Re: Nonmilitary guns:patch with ball
>
> Quote: If you don't patch, you lose compression. If you lose compression, you
lose
> power. That's why car engines have piston rings, of course. The ancestors
> might have been uneducated, but they had common sense and understood
mechanical
> things. If you don't patch the ball, you need a wad to keep the ball in place.
> I doubt the ancestors would skip the patch for the wad
>
>
> ......................................................................
>
>
> I came across a bullet that was the precursor of the minnie bullet yesterday
while searching. It is W.W. Greener's self expanding bullet. It is an ovate ball
with the back hollowed out for inserting a wooden plug resembling a rivet. The
purpose being so that the ball may expand in the barrel when fired to
compleately fill the grooves. interesting it was but I cannot find any more info
on it other that it was deemed too difficult to produce during the time yet
found very effective in use. Thus the opportunity to develop it was squandered.
Just a bit of insight regarding this segment of the thread. Thanks for reading.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gentlemen
    I ended up with a couple of powder flasks and have no use for them.   On is
unmarked and looks like it is made of tin or similar.   Adjustable drop tube is
right now stuck due to some clever varnishing in years past.   The second is a
Dixon "Star and Circle" pattern flask in reasonable shape.  It has the 4 chain
eyelets along with the traditional dents and scrapes.  Drop tube adjusts. 
"DIXON" is on the copper flask body.  "drams, 2 1/2, 2 3/4,...3 1/2" are on the
drop tube.  Spring and door work OK.   Let me know if anyone wants it, otherwise
it goes to EBay.

Dennis

I have a Hopkins Allen Heritage underhammer buggy rifle and boot pistol 45 cal.
matching set, a Suave HY hunter 58 cal., and a Custom built flintlock poorboy
Kentucky rifle.
If you have any interest, let me know.
Rob

Rob,


Interested in the Boot pistol and buggy rifle.


Jeff
Jeff Jones
CIS Faculty
Coconino Community College
(928) 226-4279

“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than
anyone else.” -Albert Einstein
________________________________________
From: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com [Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Rob [robjamros@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 2:18 PM
To: Muzzleloaders@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Muzzleloaders] For Sale

I have a Hopkins Allen Heritage underhammer buggy rifle and boot pistol 45 cal.
matching set, a Suave HY hunter 58 cal., and a Custom built flintlock poorboy
Kentucky rifle.
If you have any interest, let me know.
Rob