----- Original Message -----

From: scshmoo@...

To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 10:12 PM

Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum

Hi Stephen,

The 8V Siata #22 was driven by Don Erbeck and this photo is from the Governor's
Cup races 15 April 1962. Believe that this is the same Siata Diffenderfer raced
in in 1961.

Regards,

David

Stephen Lloyd wrote:

> Hey gang,
> I can vouch for the Siata V8 -- it appears in some of Dave Roethel's old
> movies. Don't recall seeing a white California in the movies, but that's not
> saying it wasn't there. There is a brief shot of Grossman's silver California
> at Marlboro.
>

---

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/2007 8:34 PM

Hi All,

Charlie Hayes in the McKelvy GTO (3223) early in the Six Hour 1963.

regards,

david

Hi All,

Attached is a better photo of Doug Diffenderfer in the white LWB Cal . This was
29 July 1962.

Regards,

david

Hi Bob,

Attached photo is from 5 Oct 1963. The TRC is Henry Hironaka (0660). Who is #39?
A Lotus? I do not have the program sheets for this race.

Art Tweedale normally raced on #37 and raced a Lola.

Regards,

David

Bob Storck wrote:

> scshmoo@... wrote:
> > Art Tweedale drove solo to take 3rd with his GM Lola.
> SCCA still has trouble keeping their history straight. During the
> runnoffs, not sure if it was Dorsey or Bis, but one of them reported
> that "in 1965 SCCA changed C Modified to C Sports Racer!" 1300 cc cars
> that matched the then CSR class matched F modified IRRC!
>
> That GM 1100 cc Lola was the one I bought from the recently departed
> photog, Roy Des Ruisseaux.
>
> Cheers, Bob
>

----- Original Message -----

From: scshmoo@...

To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 10:10 PM

Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum

Hi Stephen,

Someone mentioned Jim Sutter and his CM special. Jim built this car himself over
the winter of 1963-64. He welded his own space frame. Used MGA twin cam disc
brakes. Jim Hall gave him some adjustable shocks off of the Chaparral. He had an
engine that Duntov had breathed on.

I have a load of photos I took while the car was under construction. They are
all in negative form. If anyone is interested I can try to dig them out and see
if I can scan them. My wife has taken over the dark room so I can not make any
prints.

I do not know if Jim ever got the car sorted out. I think Randy Canfield(?)
drove it for him a couple of times in 1965.

The body was the first one a guy further down the Alley was making. Cannot
remember his name. He was making these bodies for anyone who was making a
special. Think he expected a lot of VW customers. It was a pretty design. Do not
know how well he did, but this was just when such specials were taking off.

Regards,

david

Stephen Lloyd wrote:

> Hey gang,
> I can vouch for the Siata V8 -- it appears in some of Dave Roethel's old
> movies. Don't recall seeing a white California in the movies, but that's not
> saying it wasn't there. There is a brief shot of Grossman's silver California
> at Marlboro.
>
> David, whatever became of the dark blue GTO and dark blue ex-"CanAm" Ferraris
> Tatum drove in the 1968 season? Also, do you recall what that GTO sounded
> like? If memroy serves me, when Hayes ran the 6-hour with the GTO ithat GTO
> was very quiet. But Tatum's dark blue GTO had an almost Matra F1-V-12 sound to
> it that was unlike I'd heard from other Ferraris. Any thoughts?
> Steve L.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "scshmoo@earthlink.net" <scshmoo@earthlink.net>
> To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 4:58:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
>
> Hi Don,
>
> The Siata was not the same one Doug Diffenderfer raced was it? His was a 8V
> Siata roadster painted yellow. He raced it in 1960.
>
> In 1962 he raced a white Ferrari California spyder, that I do not think he
> owned. Does anyone remember the white Cal spyder or where it came from?
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Donald Greimel wrote:
>
> > David
> > Those may well be the cars. I don't recall the colors too clearly although
> > I thought the TR was more like primer than gloss. He painted it white
> > before selling it from the old Koopman Saab shop. Thanks for the photos. I
> > love where the spectators have parked their Corvair, etc. What do you think
> > that is beside the Corvair? It looks a bit like a Siata or a Facel Vega.
> > My first school at Marlboro was in a Siata that I put a SAAB engine in for
> > Bob Kimberk. It won every race entered that year in HM but only because the
> > Tanner broke at VIR.
> > I'll see if I can find Charlies email or web site for you.
> > Cheers
> > Don
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <scshmoo@earthlink. net>
> > To: <Marlboro_Raceway@ yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
> >
> > > Hi Don,
> > >
> > > If the four cylinder was blue and white then that is 0706, a 500TRC. Think
>
> > > he
> > > bought it from Graham Shaw, whose FIA Cobra he later raced. Or maybe from
> > > Charlie Kolb. The TRC was sold to Gordon for Jim Sutter or directly to
> > > Jim.
> > >
> > > The TR was black and came from Allan Connell, 0714. Think he sold it to
> > > Wayne
> > > Burnett.
> > >
> > > Attached are scans of Charlie in 0706 at Lime Rock and Connell in the TR
> > > at
> > > Mansfield.
> > >
> > > Do not know he has a web site. What is the link?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > Donald Greimel wrote:
> > >
> > >> David,
> > >>
> > >> I put rings and bearings in his first Ferrari, a four cylinder car. 750
> > >> Monza ??
> > >> We stored the 250TR, serviced it, and managed to weld up a hole in a
> > >> water
> > >> pipe behind the engine by working with a torch and a mirror. I loved
> > >> that
> > >> car and enjoyed taking to lunch. The cops were not enthusiastic about
> > >> those
> > >> megaphones though :>). Could have had it for $4800 and have been kicking
> > >> myself for 40 years over that. I did some service on the new Berlinetta
> > >> but
> > >> don't remember what. Charlie sort of drifted away after taking up with
> > >> my
> > >> old girlfriend, the buxom blond named Clair. He took over Koopmans shop
> > >> over in Kensington about that time and I didn't see much of him after
> > >> that.
> > >> Have you checked out Charlie's web site? He has become something of a
> > >> Monk.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Don
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
> homepage.

---

---

---

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.13/1165 - Release Date: 12/2/2007 8:34 PM

Oh yes. That was a pretty piece!

Thank you, Bob

scshmoo@... wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> Do you mean this car?
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Bob Storck wrote:
>
>
>> scshmoo@... wrote:
>>
>>> Art Tweedale drove solo to take 3rd with his GM Lola.
>>>
>> SCCA still has trouble keeping their history straight. During the
>> runnoffs, not sure if it was Dorsey or Bis, but one of them reported
>> that "in 1965 SCCA changed C Modified to C Sports Racer!" 1300 cc cars
>> that matched the then CSR class matched F modified IRRC!
>>
>> That GM 1100 cc Lola was the one I bought from the recently departed
>> photog, Roy Des Ruisseaux.
>>
>> Cheers, Bob
>

Hi Bob,

Do you mean this car?

Regards,

David

Bob Storck wrote:

> scshmoo@... wrote:
> > Art Tweedale drove solo to take 3rd with his GM Lola.
> SCCA still has trouble keeping their history straight. During the
> runnoffs, not sure if it was Dorsey or Bis, but one of them reported
> that "in 1965 SCCA changed C Modified to C Sports Racer!" 1300 cc cars
> that matched the then CSR class matched F modified IRRC!
>
> That GM 1100 cc Lola was the one I bought from the recently departed
> photog, Roy Des Ruisseaux.
>
> Cheers, Bob
>

Hi Stephen,

The 8V Siata #22 was driven by Don Erbeck and this photo is from the Governor's
Cup races 15 April 1962. Believe that this is the same Siata Diffenderfer raced
in in 1961.

Regards,

David

Stephen Lloyd wrote:

> Hey gang,
> I can vouch for the Siata V8 -- it appears in some of Dave Roethel's old
> movies. Don't recall seeing a white California in the movies, but that's not
> saying it wasn't there. There is a brief shot of Grossman's silver California
> at Marlboro.
>

Hi Stephen,

Someone mentioned Jim Sutter and his CM special. Jim built this car himself over
the winter of 1963-64. He welded his own space frame. Used MGA twin cam disc
brakes. Jim Hall gave him some adjustable shocks off of the Chaparral. He had an
engine that Duntov had breathed on.

I have a load of photos I took while the car was under construction. They are
all in negative form. If anyone is interested I can try to dig them out and see
if I can scan them. My wife has taken over the dark room so I can not make any
prints.

I do not know if Jim ever got the car sorted out. I think Randy Canfield(?)
drove it for him a couple of times in 1965.

The body was the first one a guy further down the Alley was making. Cannot
remember his name. He was making these bodies for anyone who was making a
special. Think he expected a lot of VW customers. It was a pretty design. Do not
know how well he did, but this was just when such specials were taking off.

Regards,

david

Stephen Lloyd wrote:

> Hey gang,
> I can vouch for the Siata V8 -- it appears in some of Dave Roethel's old
> movies. Don't recall seeing a white California in the movies, but that's not
> saying it wasn't there. There is a brief shot of Grossman's silver California
> at Marlboro.
>
> David, whatever became of the dark blue GTO and dark blue ex-"CanAm" Ferraris
> Tatum drove in the 1968 season? Also, do you recall what that GTO sounded
> like? If memroy serves me, when Hayes ran the 6-hour with the GTO ithat GTO
> was very quiet. But Tatum's dark blue GTO had an almost Matra F1-V-12 sound to
> it that was unlike I'd heard from other Ferraris. Any thoughts?
> Steve L.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "scshmoo@..." <scshmoo@...>
> To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 4:58:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
>
> Hi Don,
>
> The Siata was not the same one Doug Diffenderfer raced was it? His was a 8V
> Siata roadster painted yellow. He raced it in 1960.
>
> In 1962 he raced a white Ferrari California spyder, that I do not think he
> owned. Does anyone remember the white Cal spyder or where it came from?
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Donald Greimel wrote:
>
> > David
> > Those may well be the cars. I don't recall the colors too clearly although
> > I thought the TR was more like primer than gloss. He painted it white
> > before selling it from the old Koopman Saab shop. Thanks for the photos. I
> > love where the spectators have parked their Corvair, etc. What do you think
> > that is beside the Corvair? It looks a bit like a Siata or a Facel Vega.
> > My first school at Marlboro was in a Siata that I put a SAAB engine in for
> > Bob Kimberk. It won every race entered that year in HM but only because the
> > Tanner broke at VIR.
> > I'll see if I can find Charlies email or web site for you.
> > Cheers
> > Don
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <scshmoo@earthlink. net>
> > To: <Marlboro_Raceway@ yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
> >
> > > Hi Don,
> > >
> > > If the four cylinder was blue and white then that is 0706, a 500TRC. Think
>
> > > he
> > > bought it from Graham Shaw, whose FIA Cobra he later raced. Or maybe from
> > > Charlie Kolb. The TRC was sold to Gordon for Jim Sutter or directly to
> > > Jim.
> > >
> > > The TR was black and came from Allan Connell, 0714. Think he sold it to
> > > Wayne
> > > Burnett.
> > >
> > > Attached are scans of Charlie in 0706 at Lime Rock and Connell in the TR
> > > at
> > > Mansfield.
> > >
> > > Do not know he has a web site. What is the link?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > Donald Greimel wrote:
> > >
> > >> David,
> > >>
> > >> I put rings and bearings in his first Ferrari, a four cylinder car. 750
> > >> Monza ??
> > >> We stored the 250TR, serviced it, and managed to weld up a hole in a
> > >> water
> > >> pipe behind the engine by working with a torch and a mirror. I loved
> > >> that
> > >> car and enjoyed taking to lunch. The cops were not enthusiastic about
> > >> those
> > >> megaphones though :>). Could have had it for $4800 and have been kicking
> > >> myself for 40 years over that. I did some service on the new Berlinetta
> > >> but
> > >> don't remember what. Charlie sort of drifted away after taking up with
> > >> my
> > >> old girlfriend, the buxom blond named Clair. He took over Koopmans shop
> > >> over in Kensington about that time and I didn't see much of him after
> > >> that.
> > >> Have you checked out Charlie's web site? He has become something of a
> > >> Monk.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Don
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
> homepage.

scshmoo@... wrote:
> Art Tweedale drove solo to take 3rd with his GM Lola.
SCCA still has trouble keeping their history straight. During the
runnoffs, not sure if it was Dorsey or Bis, but one of them reported
that "in 1965 SCCA changed C Modified to C Sports Racer!" 1300 cc cars
that matched the then CSR class matched F modified IRRC!

That GM 1100 cc Lola was the one I bought from the recently departed
photog, Roy Des Ruisseaux.

Cheers, Bob

Hi Stephen,

Attached is a photo of an 8V Siata at Marlboro. Doug Diffendurfer raced on #42,
but I believe this is his car, either before or after he raced it. It was
yellow.  Another scan of Diffenderfer in the white Cal Spyder in 1962 and a b&w
of Grossman in his silver LWB Cal. Attached is a scan from Lime Rock in 1959. I
do not recall him driving this Cal at Marlboro, did he? These are the races I
have:

26 Apr 59 Lime Rock
1 May 59 VIR
17 May 59 Cumberland
31 May 59 Bridgehampton
4 Jul 59 Lime Rock

When you mention Grossman at Marlboro in this car I assume you mean President's
Cup in 1960. In that case it is a different car. Serial is 1451. Attached is a
scan of 1451 at VIR and another with Bob in the car at Cumberland.

Regards,

David

Stephen Lloyd wrote:

> Hey gang,
> I can vouch for the Siata V8 -- it appears in some of Dave Roethel's old
> movies. Don't recall seeing a white California in the movies, but that's not
> saying it wasn't there. There is a brief shot of Grossman's silver California
> at Marlboro.
>
>
> Steve L.
>

Hi Stephen,

The Hayes GTO belonged to McKelvy. That was the Six Hour, 28 July 1963. The
serial was 3223 and it was the first GTO built. GTOs came with some Abarth cans,
remember these were supposed to be street touring cars. Anyway it was one of
those miserable Washington 90 and 90 days with a miasma of humidity and heat.
The GTO over heated so in an attempt to keep the engine cool(er) the heater was
switched on to get a little more radiator surface area (I said it was a
"touring" car).

With the heater on Hayes nearly died. The GTO was not insulated or particularly
cool inside, especially with the heater on full in July in Washington summer.
Another stop had a bunch of holes drilled in the rear window in hopes of getting
some air flow started. Gene Hobbs spelled Hayes, but was soon overcome by the
heat also. Alan Paterson was then put in the car just to keep it circulating.
The frequent pit stops pushed the GTO back to 2nd. This GTO is now in Japan

Bob Mouat/Paul Hyatt in a bobtail Cooper Monaco cruised to an easy win. Art
Tweedale drove solo to take 3rd with his GM Lola.

Tatum's 3767 was probably running straight pipes so without even the empty
"mufflers" the 250 TR had strapped under the doors. I know on his SWB (3005)
Tatum ran short side pipes and it was very loud. The V 12 has a high pitched
scream at 7500, which is where the GTO would have been running. Charlie's SWB
had the Abarth Montlhery spec exhaust system and sounded very quiet from the
edge of the track. I never had any trouble with the same system on my SWB, but
used to get pulled over all the time in my Giulietta that was running only the
resonator can.

Tatum's P cars 0844 and 0860 are both red now. 0844 has been rebodied back to
berlinetta and is in England being vintage raced. Attached are scans of 0844 at
Daytona and driven by Tatum at VIR. It is now back in the Daytona configuration.
The 350 Can Am is in France with Pierre Bardinon (scan).

Regards,

David

Stephen Lloyd wrote:

> Hey gang,
> I can vouch for the Siata V8 -- it appears in some of Dave Roethel's old
> movies. Don't recall seeing a white California in the movies, but that's not
> saying it wasn't there. There is a brief shot of Grossman's silver California
> at Marlboro.
>
> David, whatever became of the dark blue GTO and dark blue ex-"CanAm" Ferraris
> Tatum drove in the 1968 season? Also, do you recall what that GTO sounded
> like? If memroy serves me, when Hayes ran the 6-hour with the GTO ithat GTO
> was very quiet. But Tatum's dark blue GTO had an almost Matra F1-V-12 sound to
> it that was unlike I'd heard from other Ferraris. Any thoughts?
> Steve L.
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "scshmoo@..." <scshmoo@...>
> To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 4:58:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
>
> Hi Don,
>
> The Siata was not the same one Doug Diffenderfer raced was it? His was a 8V
> Siata roadster painted yellow. He raced it in 1960.
>
> In 1962 he raced a white Ferrari California spyder, that I do not think he
> owned. Does anyone remember the white Cal spyder or where it came from?
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Donald Greimel wrote:
>
> > David
> > Those may well be the cars. I don't recall the colors too clearly although
> > I thought the TR was more like primer than gloss. He painted it white
> > before selling it from the old Koopman Saab shop. Thanks for the photos. I
> > love where the spectators have parked their Corvair, etc. What do you think
> > that is beside the Corvair? It looks a bit like a Siata or a Facel Vega.
> > My first school at Marlboro was in a Siata that I put a SAAB engine in for
> > Bob Kimberk. It won every race entered that year in HM but only because the
> > Tanner broke at VIR.
> > I'll see if I can find Charlies email or web site for you.
> > Cheers
> > Don
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <scshmoo@earthlink. net>
> > To: <Marlboro_Raceway@ yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
> >
> > > Hi Don,
> > >
> > > If the four cylinder was blue and white then that is 0706, a 500TRC. Think
>
> > > he
> > > bought it from Graham Shaw, whose FIA Cobra he later raced. Or maybe from
> > > Charlie Kolb. The TRC was sold to Gordon for Jim Sutter or directly to
> > > Jim.
> > >
> > > The TR was black and came from Allan Connell, 0714. Think he sold it to
> > > Wayne
> > > Burnett.
> > >
> > > Attached are scans of Charlie in 0706 at Lime Rock and Connell in the TR
> > > at
> > > Mansfield.
> > >
> > > Do not know he has a web site. What is the link?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > Donald Greimel wrote:
> > >
> > >> David,
> > >>
> > >> I put rings and bearings in his first Ferrari, a four cylinder car. 750
> > >> Monza ??
> > >> We stored the 250TR, serviced it, and managed to weld up a hole in a
> > >> water
> > >> pipe behind the engine by working with a torch and a mirror. I loved
> > >> that
> > >> car and enjoyed taking to lunch. The cops were not enthusiastic about
> > >> those
> > >> megaphones though :>). Could have had it for $4800 and have been kicking
> > >> myself for 40 years over that. I did some service on the new Berlinetta
> > >> but
> > >> don't remember what. Charlie sort of drifted away after taking up with
> > >> my
> > >> old girlfriend, the buxom blond named Clair. He took over Koopmans shop
> > >> over in Kensington about that time and I didn't see much of him after
> > >> that.
> > >> Have you checked out Charlie's web site? He has become something of a
> > >> Monk.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Don
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
> homepage.

Hi Don,

The Siata was not the same one Doug Diffenderfer raced was it? His was a 8V
Siata roadster painted yellow. He raced it in 1960.

In 1962 he raced a white Ferrari California spyder, that I do not think he
owned. Does anyone remember the white Cal spyder or where it came from?

Regards,

David

Donald Greimel wrote:

> David
> Those may well be the cars.  I don't recall the colors too clearly although
> I thought the TR was more like primer than gloss.  He painted it white
> before selling it from the old Koopman Saab shop.  Thanks for the photos.  I
> love where the spectators have parked their Corvair, etc.  What do you think
> that is beside the Corvair?  It looks a bit like a Siata or a Facel Vega.
> My first school at Marlboro was in a Siata that I put a SAAB engine in for
> Bob Kimberk.  It won every race entered that year in HM but only because the
> Tanner broke at VIR.
> I'll see if I can find Charlies email or web site for you.
> Cheers
> Don
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <scshmoo@...>
> To: <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
>
> > Hi Don,
> >
> > If the four cylinder was blue and white then that is 0706, a 500TRC. Think
> > he
> > bought it from Graham Shaw, whose FIA Cobra he later raced. Or maybe from
> > Charlie Kolb. The TRC was sold to Gordon for Jim Sutter or directly to
> > Jim.
> >
> > The TR was black and came from Allan Connell, 0714. Think he sold it to
> > Wayne
> > Burnett.
> >
> > Attached are scans of Charlie in 0706 at Lime Rock and Connell in the TR
> > at
> > Mansfield.
> >
> > Do not know he has a web site. What is the link?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> > Donald Greimel wrote:
> >
> >> David,
> >>
> >> I put rings and bearings in his first Ferrari, a four cylinder car.  750
> >> Monza ??
> >> We stored the 250TR, serviced it, and managed to weld up a hole in a
> >> water
> >> pipe behind the engine by working with a torch and a mirror.  I loved
> >> that
> >> car and enjoyed taking to lunch.  The cops were not enthusiastic about
> >> those
> >> megaphones though :>).  Could have had it for $4800 and have been kicking
> >> myself for 40 years over that.  I did some service on the new Berlinetta
> >> but
> >> don't remember what.  Charlie sort of drifted away after taking up with
> >> my
> >> old girlfriend,  the buxom blond named Clair.  He took over Koopmans shop
> >> over in Kensington about that time and I didn't see much of him after
> >> that.
> >> Have you checked out Charlie's web site?  He has become something of a
> >> Monk.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Don
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Bob,

What I remember is that racers fell into three general economic classes. This is
not meant to be an exhaustive list.

1) The rich (Spear, Kimberly, Cunningham) who had neat cars and professional
rigs.

2) Those in the trade (Hansgen, Holbert, Bob Fergus, Charlie Kolb) who were
talented mechanics and had facilities.

3) The guys with day jobs, families and/or used the everyday driver to race.

All of these were dedicated to racing. Talent varied, but some were quite good
drivers. In those days even the "big guns" operated on a primitive level
compared to the norm today. Cunningham used an open car hauler. KImberly had a
small Ford truck and semi enclosed trailer for a second car. I think John Edgar
was the first with an enclosed semi trailer.

Looking back it is interesting how little money was really needed to win or
campaign for a season. Charlie Hayes wrote two articles in Sports Car (4/62 and
2/63) "What Does it Cost to Race a Ferrari" and "Economy Racing Revisited." He
claimed a cost of $125 per race. Of course the SWB cost his $9500, which would
have bought a house then.

Then there were stories of the $25,000 Sprites and F. Jr. was the "Car of the
Month Club."

Regards,

david


Bob Storck wrote:

> I had started racing in the South Texas Border Region, and read in
> Sports Car about the rich guys like Penske and Cunningham racing
> Porsches and Ferraris at exotic Marlboro and Lime Rock. Everyone had a
> seven foot tall image.
>
> Imagine my surprise to come here and find Randy Canfield working on his
> SCCA championship winning bugeye on its trailer in an apartment parking
> lot in Bethesda; doing body work with touch up spray can paint. Or to
> find the vaunted Group 44 squeezed into a war surplus quonset hut behind
> a sheet metal shop in Falls Church, using a hand drill in a stand
> clamped to a work bench as a drill press!
>
> I was just at Heartland Park for the runnoffs, and just about every team
> had a semi-trailer transporter!
>
> Cheers, Bob
>
> tcooper@... wrote:
> > Bob:
> > I believe they call  it Cubic Dollars these days. No more races
> > between a group of sprites and midgets or bug eyes, Tr3 ,TR4 and 356
> > Porsches. They were the good old days. Ted
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Don Haines Photography

To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] New scca class?

Hi Bob,

   I agree, today's SCCA classes don't make a lot of sense.  My main gripe is the from the ground up built race cars that pose as production cars.

  The old producton classes made some sense.  Back then, you could go to the dealer or used car lot and buy a sports car and add safety items and go racing.  As your budget allowed, you could add modifications to make the car faster.

They still have lower classes like that (sorta) but you don't see Corvettes and Vipers (and long gone Cobras) running in a class that resembles the showroom cars.  Even in IMSA where we ran FIA Group 4 homologation rules, you started with a production car and went form there. Heck, even the old TransAm rules called for some factory parts ( the roof panel, if I remember)

My first season at Marlboro, I drove my car to the track and back home again. And everyday to work.  Sure it was a bit noisy on the street and I had pulled the carpet out to save weight, but it was still a production car with tags and all. That car was probably cheaper to race than some of the Improved Touring class cars running today.  And not just because of inflation.

Eventually, as I added stuff to make the car more competitive, I took it off the street.  But even with the FIA mods, I could have changed it back to a street car in about 3 days [one day if I had had a crew :-) ]

Now, the upper class cars are tube frame cars.  The C5/6R Corvettes NEVER saw the Corvette assembly line or a dealer showroom.

Of course new car prices have gone up.  But today, you really can't go down and buy a car to go racing . And building a car now will cost a gazillion dollars.

And Vintage racing classes don't allow for real racing.  They tend to lump cars of the same decade together.  So how does a '59 Sprite expect to beat a Lister Chevy or Maserati Birdcage?  They don't but they go out a putter around just to be on the track again.  Kind of like wheel-chair racing at the old folks home.

OK, so I'm grumpy about all this.  I just had a birthday last week and I'm not happy about getting older :-)  But still I miss when a race car was a real car (if you know what I mean).

Bob Storck <bstorck@...> wrote:

Dean Manion wrote:

SCCA is considering a new class

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/04279428-c039-457f-a2c3-99f10116ae30.htm

This makes a lot more sense than most SCCA classes today. The mixture of vehicle sizes and engine displacements seems like the Competition board was at work here as well. With the runnoffs on Speed these days, I'm glad that my racing days were back when classes made sense. Today, class structure seems more dependent on whining and wheedling than intelligence. I agree with Tullius when he was a Governor. At the National level, cars should be limited to 10 ... even 5 years old. How do you expect manufacturers to promote and give support money to race cars when they are likely to be beaten by cars out of production 40 years past? And why combine so many disparate cars like sedans and sports cars? It should make sense to a spectator. And how about limiting a car type to say 3 classes? I believe Miatas can compete in SEVEN classes! Again, the poor spectator. And modifications should make sense. Geez! Tube frame, rear wheel drive Minis? And that's not the worst. And isn't it about time to replace FF and FV with something like FToyota and FSubaru where you don't have to manufacture and vet expensive parts to keep cars on the track. C'mon, these were supposed to be CHEAP racing!

What to do with old cars? Isn't that what Regional racing is all about? As long as it is safe, there should be a class where almost anything would run. Or if you really want to play with neat old stuff, vintage racing, but again that seems to be fraught with nitpickers too much of the time. IMHO, SCCA racing has turned into an anarchy of rich idiots and I question whether anyone is really having fun.

This would be especially popular in Alaska where the motorhomes up from the lower 48 clogging their narrow roads are universally hated. At the Alaska State Fair one of the most popular efforts is the trashing of a motor home by the most outrageous method imaginable ... nothing mundane like high explosives! Head on collisions with semi; artillery practice; air drops, etc.

Cheers, Bob

Don Haines, PPA; PPSGW, WPPI,
Don Haines Photography
Serving the DC Metro area,Tampa Bay and Central Florida
Member Clearwater Chamber of Commerce
www.donhainesphotography.com
301-920-1714
727-643-5619

---

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

David
Those may well be the cars.  I don't recall the colors too clearly although
I thought the TR was more like primer than gloss.  He painted it white
before selling it from the old Koopman Saab shop.  Thanks for the photos.  I
love where the spectators have parked their Corvair, etc.  What do you think
that is beside the Corvair?  It looks a bit like a Siata or a Facel Vega.
My first school at Marlboro was in a Siata that I put a SAAB engine in for
Bob Kimberk.  It won every race entered that year in HM but only because the
Tanner broke at VIR.
I'll see if I can find Charlies email or web site for you.
Cheers
Don

----- Original Message -----
From: <scshmoo@...>
To: <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum


> Hi Don,
>
> If the four cylinder was blue and white then that is 0706, a 500TRC. Think
> he
> bought it from Graham Shaw, whose FIA Cobra he later raced. Or maybe from
> Charlie Kolb. The TRC was sold to Gordon for Jim Sutter or directly to
> Jim.
>
> The TR was black and came from Allan Connell, 0714. Think he sold it to
> Wayne
> Burnett.
>
> Attached are scans of Charlie in 0706 at Lime Rock and Connell in the TR
> at
> Mansfield.
>
> Do not know he has a web site. What is the link?
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Donald Greimel wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> I put rings and bearings in his first Ferrari, a four cylinder car.  750
>> Monza ??
>> We stored the 250TR, serviced it, and managed to weld up a hole in a
>> water
>> pipe behind the engine by working with a torch and a mirror.  I loved
>> that
>> car and enjoyed taking to lunch.  The cops were not enthusiastic about
>> those
>> megaphones though :>).  Could have had it for $4800 and have been kicking
>> myself for 40 years over that.  I did some service on the new Berlinetta
>> but
>> don't remember what.  Charlie sort of drifted away after taking up with
>> my
>> old girlfriend,  the buxom blond named Clair.  He took over Koopmans shop
>> over in Kensington about that time and I didn't see much of him after
>> that.
>> Have you checked out Charlie's web site?  He has become something of a
>> Monk.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Don
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi Bob,

Roger and Lissa Penske were not "rich." He was comfortable for a college
student, but the tow car was a 55 Chevy and the Corvette was on a two wheel open
trailer.

David

Bob Storck wrote:

> I had started racing in the South Texas Border Region, and read in
> Sports Car about the rich guys like Penske and Cunningham racing
> Porsches and Ferraris at exotic Marlboro and Lime Rock. Everyone had a
> seven foot tall image.
>
> Imagine my surprise to come here and find Randy Canfield working on his
> SCCA championship winning bugeye on its trailer in an apartment parking
> lot in Bethesda; doing body work with touch up spray can paint. Or to
> find the vaunted Group 44 squeezed into a war surplus quonset hut behind
> a sheet metal shop in Falls Church, using a hand drill in a stand
> clamped to a work bench as a drill press!
>
> I was just at Heartland Park for the runnoffs, and just about every team
> had a semi-trailer transporter!
>
> Cheers, Bob
>
> tcooper@... wrote:
> > Bob:
> > I believe they call  it Cubic Dollars these days. No more races
> > between a group of sprites and midgets or bug eyes, Tr3 ,TR4 and 356
> > Porsches. They were the good old days. Ted
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I had started racing in the South Texas Border Region, and read in
Sports Car about the rich guys like Penske and Cunningham racing
Porsches and Ferraris at exotic Marlboro and Lime Rock. Everyone had a
seven foot tall image.

Imagine my surprise to come here and find Randy Canfield working on his
SCCA championship winning bugeye on its trailer in an apartment parking
lot in Bethesda; doing body work with touch up spray can paint. Or to
find the vaunted Group 44 squeezed into a war surplus quonset hut behind
a sheet metal shop in Falls Church, using a hand drill in a stand
clamped to a work bench as a drill press!

I was just at Heartland Park for the runnoffs, and just about every team
had a semi-trailer transporter!

Cheers, Bob

tcooper@... wrote:
> Bob:
> I believe they call  it Cubic Dollars these days. No more races
> between a group of sprites and midgets or bug eyes, Tr3 ,TR4 and 356
> Porsches. They were the good old days. Ted
>

Rick says it was Elmo Langley.  I do recall seeing him at Marlboro at some
time.  I fellow named Buz Brocene, which I have probably misspelled, brought
a midget to have fun with too.  I think it had an alluminum 215 Olds in it.
Geeze,  it's amazing what pops into ones mind.
Don G
----- Original Message -----
From: <scshmoo@...>
To: <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum


> Hi Don,
>
> The Ford was entered by Ratus Walter's  and was reputed to be the
> Darlington 500
> winner.
>
> Date was 7 January 1963 Refrigerator Bowl.
>
> David
>
> Donald Greimel wrote:
>
>> Rick,,I defer to your memory.  That name does sound familiar.Don
>>
>>      ----- Original Message -----
>>      From: Rick Mandelson
>>      To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
>>      Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:38 PM
>>      Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
>>       Hi Don The Ford was driven by Elmo Langly.  A story and pictures
>>      was in "Stock Car Magazine"  and I think it was written buy Donna
>>      May Mims.  I'll have to check my old magazines to be sure. Rick
>>      MandelsonEllicott City, Maryland
>>
>>           ----- Original Message -----
>>           From: Donald Greimel
>>           To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
>>           Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:44 PM
>>           Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon
>>           Tatum
>>
>>           That would have been Hollis Webster on the Kart,  Curtis
>>           Turner in the big Ford.  I got to race the Kart the
>>           following year with a Morgan SS.
>>
>>                ----- Original Message -----
>>                From: Pelouze, Craige
>>                To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
>>                Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:48 AM
>>                Subject: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline
>>                Alley/Gordon Tatum
>>
>>                Being an "outsider from Richmond" I didn't get
>>                to join in much of the fun with you guys
>>                locally, only at Marlboro.  I do have pictures
>>                of a race (at a Refrigerator Bowl I think)
>>                there between a go cart, a NASCAR car and, I
>>                think Bruce Jennings in his Carrera.  Any body
>>                remember that?  I do believe the go cart won.
>>                Steve, I think that picture is in my scrap
>>                book???
>>
>>                Craige Pelouze | Senior Vice President
>>                Investment Sales | Central VA Multi-Housing
>>                Group
>>                CB Richard Ellis | Brokerage Services
>>                7501 Boulders View Drive, Suite 600 | Richmond,
>>                VA 23225
>>                T 804 267 7244 | F 804 320 4839 | C 804 399 7327
>>
>>                craige.pelouze@... | www.cbre.com/richmond
>>
>>                This email may contain information that is
>>                confidential or attorney-client privileged and
>>                may constitute inside information. The contents
>>                of this email are intended only for the
>>                recipient(s) listed above. If you are not the
>>                intended recipient, you are directed not to
>>                read, disclose, distribute or otherwise use this
>>                transmission. If you have received this email in
>>                error, please notify the sender immediately and
>>                delete the transmission. Delivery of this
>>                message is not intended to waive any applicable
>>                privileges.
>>
>>           -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>           No virus found in this incoming message.
>>           Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>           Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.9/1158 - Release
>>           Date: 11/28/2007 9:11 PM
>>
>>
>>      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>      I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
>>      It has removed 453 spam emails to date.
>>      Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
>>      Try SPAMfighter for free now!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Bob,

   I agree, today's SCCA classes don't make a lot of sense.  My main gripe is the from the ground up built race cars that pose as production cars.

  The old producton classes made some sense.  Back then, you could go to the dealer or used car lot and buy a sports car and add safety items and go racing.  As your budget allowed, you could add modifications to make the car faster.

----- Original Message -----

From: Don Haines Photography

To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] New scca class?

Hi Bob,

   I agree, today's SCCA classes don't make a lot of sense.  My main gripe is the from the ground up built race cars that pose as production cars.

  The old producton classes made some sense.  Back then, you could go to the dealer or used car lot and buy a sports car and add safety items and go racing.  As your budget allowed, you could add modifications to make the car faster.

They still have lower classes like that (sorta) but you don't see Corvettes and Vipers (and long gone Cobras) running in a class that resembles the showroom cars.  Even in IMSA where we ran FIA Group 4 homologation rules, you started with a production car and went form there. Heck, even the old TransAm rules called for some factory parts ( the roof panel, if I remember)

My first season at Marlboro, I drove my car to the track and back home again. And everyday to work.  Sure it was a bit noisy on the street and I had pulled the carpet out to save weight, but it was still a production car with tags and all. That car was probably cheaper to race than some of the Improved Touring class cars running today.  And not just because of inflation.

Eventually, as I added stuff to make the car more competitive, I took it off the street.  But even with the FIA mods, I could have changed it back to a street car in about 3 days [one day if I had had a crew :-) ]

Now, the upper class cars are tube frame cars.  The C5/6R Corvettes NEVER saw the Corvette assembly line or a dealer showroom.

Of course new car prices have gone up.  But today, you really can't go down and buy a car to go racing . And building a car now will cost a gazillion dollars.

And Vintage racing classes don't allow for real racing.  They tend to lump cars of the same decade together.  So how does a '59 Sprite expect to beat a Lister Chevy or Maserati Birdcage?  They don't but they go out a putter around just to be on the track again.  Kind of like wheel-chair racing at the old folks home.

OK, so I'm grumpy about all this.  I just had a birthday last week and I'm not happy about getting older :-)  But still I miss when a race car was a real car (if you know what I mean).

Bob Storck <bstorck@sprynet.com> wrote:

Dean Manion wrote:

SCCA is considering a new class

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/04279428-c039-457f-a2c3-99f10116ae30.htm

This makes a lot more sense than most SCCA classes today. The mixture of vehicle sizes and engine displacements seems like the Competition board was at work here as well. With the runnoffs on Speed these days, I'm glad that my racing days were back when classes made sense. Today, class structure seems more dependent on whining and wheedling than intelligence. I agree with Tullius when he was a Governor. At the National level, cars should be limited to 10 ... even 5 years old. How do you expect manufacturers to promote and give support money to race cars when they are likely to be beaten by cars out of production 40 years past? And why combine so many disparate cars like sedans and sports cars? It should make sense to a spectator. And how about limiting a car type to say 3 classes? I believe Miatas can compete in SEVEN classes! Again, the poor spectator. And modifications should make sense. Geez! Tube frame, rear wheel drive Minis? And that's not the worst. And isn't it about time to replace FF and FV with something like FToyota and FSubaru where you don't have to manufacture and vet expensive parts to keep cars on the track. C'mon, these were supposed to be CHEAP racing!

What to do with old cars? Isn't that what Regional racing is all about? As long as it is safe, there should be a class where almost anything would run. Or if you really want to play with neat old stuff, vintage racing, but again that seems to be fraught with nitpickers too much of the time. IMHO, SCCA racing has turned into an anarchy of rich idiots and I question whether anyone is really having fun.

This would be especially popular in Alaska where the motorhomes up from the lower 48 clogging their narrow roads are universally hated. At the Alaska State Fair one of the most popular efforts is the trashing of a motor home by the most outrageous method imaginable ... nothing mundane like high explosives! Head on collisions with semi; artillery practice; air drops, etc.

Cheers, Bob

Don Haines, PPA; PPSGW, WPPI,
Don aines Photography
Serving the DC Metro area,Tampa Bay and Central Florida
Member Clearwater Chamber of Commerce
www.donhainesphotography.com
301-920-1714
727-643-5619

---

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Storck

To: Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:53 PM

Subject: [Marlboro_Raceway] New scca class?

Dean Manion wrote:

SCCA is considering a new class

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/04279428-c039-457f-a2c3-99f10116ae30.htm

This makes a lot more sense than most SCCA classes today. The mixture of vehicle sizes and engine displacements seems like the Competition board was at work here as well. With the runnoffs on Speed these days, I'm glad that my racing days were back when classes made sense. Today, class structure seems more dependent on whining and wheedling than intelligence. I agree with Tullius when he was a Governor. At the National level, cars should be limited to 10 ... even 5 years old. How do you expect manufacturers to promote and give support money to race cars when they are likely to be beaten by cars out of production 40 years past? And why combine so many disparate cars like sedans and sports cars? It should make sense to a spectator. And how about limiting a car type to say 3 classes? I believe Miatas can compete in SEVEN classes! Again, the poor spectator. And modifications should make sense. Geez! Tube frame, rear wheel drive Minis? And that's not the worst. And isn't it about time to replace FF and FV with something like FToyota and FSubaru where you don't have to manufacture and vet expensive parts to keep cars on the track. C'mon, these were supposed to be CHEAP racing!

What to do with old cars? Isn't that what Regional racing is all about? As long as it is safe, there should be a class where almost anything would run. Or if you really want to play with neat old stuff, vintage racing, but again that seems to be fraught with nitpickers too much of the time. IMHO, SCCA racing has turned into an anarchy of rich idiots and I question whether anyone is really having fun.

This would be especially popular in Alaska where the motorhomes up from the lower 48 clogging their narrow roads are universally hated. At the Alaska State Fair one of the most popular efforts is the trashing of a motor home by the most outrageous method imaginable ... nothing mundane like high explosives! Head on collisions with semi; artillery practice; air drops, etc.

Cheers, Bob

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM

Dean Manion wrote:

SCCA is considering a new class

 

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/04279428-c039-457f-a2c3-99f10116ae30.htm

This makes a lot more sense than most SCCA classes today. The mixture of vehicle sizes and engine displacements seems like the Competition board was at work here as well. With the runnoffs on Speed these days, I'm glad that my racing days were back when classes made sense. Today, class structure seems more dependent on whining and wheedling than intelligence. I agree with Tullius when he was a Governor. At the National level, cars should be limited to 10 ... even 5 years old. How do you expect manufacturers to promote and give support money to race cars when they are likely to be beaten by cars out of production 40 years past? And why combine so many disparate cars like sedans and sports cars? It should make sense to a spectator. And how about limiting a car type to say 3 classes? I believe Miatas can compete in SEVEN classes! Again, the poor spectator. And modifications should make sense. Geez! Tube frame, rear wheel drive Minis? And that's not the worst. And isn't it about time to replace FF and FV with something like FToyota and FSubaru where you don't have to manufacture and vet expensive parts to keep cars on the track. C'mon, these were supposed to be CHEAP racing!

What to do with old cars? Isn't that what Regional racing is all about? As long as it is safe, there should be a class where almost anything would run. Or if you really want to play with neat old stuff, vintage racing, but again that seems to be fraught with nitpickers too much of the time. IMHO, SCCA racing has turned into an anarchy of rich idiots and I question whether anyone is really having fun.

This would be especially popular in Alaska where the motorhomes up from the lower 48 clogging their narrow roads are universally hated. At the Alaska State Fair one of the most popular efforts is the trashing of a motor home by the most outrageous method imaginable ... nothing mundane like high explosives! Head on collisions with semi; artillery practice; air drops, etc.

Cheers, Bob

Dean Manion wrote:

SCCA is considering a new class

 

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/04279428-c039-457f-a2c3-99f10116ae30.htm

This makes a lot more sense than most SCCA classes today. The mixture of vehicle sizes and engine displacements seems like the Competition board was at work here as well. With the runnoffs on Speed these days, I'm glad that my racing days were back when classes made sense. Today, class structure seems more dependent on whining and wheedling than intelligence. I agree with Tullius when he was a Governor. At the National level, cars should be limited to 10 ... even 5 years old. How do you expect manufacturers to promote and give support money to race cars when they are likely to be beaten by cars out of production 40 years past? And why combine so many disparate cars like sedans and sports cars? It should make sense to a spectator. And how about limiting a car type to say 3 classes? I believe Miatas can compete in SEVEN classes! Again, the poor spectator. And modifications should make sense. Geez! Tube frame, rear wheel drive Minis? And that's not the worst. And isn't it about time to replace FF and FV with something like FToyota and FSubaru where you don't have to manufacture and vet expensive parts to keep cars on the track. C'mon, these were supposed to be CHEAP racing!

This would be especially popular in Alaska where the motorhomes up from the lower 48 clogging their narrow roads are universally hated. At the Alaska State Fair one of the most popular efforts is the trashing of a motor home by the most outrageous method imaginable ... nothing mundane like high explosives! Head on collisions with semi; artillery practice; air drops, etc.

Cheers, Bob

Ed;  sorry I missed you at the Gold Cup.  Heard you were there but was quite busy with the Alfa Berlina (school bus) that I drove. Craige

Craige Pelouze | Senior Vice President  
Investment Sales | Central VA Multi-Housing Group
CB Richard Ellis | Brokerage Services 
7501 Boulders View Drive, Suite 600 | Richmond, VA 23225 
T 804 267 7244 | F 804 320 4839 | C 804 399 7327 
craige.pelouze@cbre.com | www.cbre.com/richmond 
 

This email may contain information that is confidential or attorney-client privileged and may constitute inside information. The contents of this email are intended only for the recipient(s) listed above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are directed not to read, disclose, distribute or otherwise use this transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the transmission. Delivery of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privileges.

Hi Don,

If the four cylinder was blue and white then that is 0706, a 500TRC. Think he
bought it from Graham Shaw, whose FIA Cobra he later raced. Or maybe from
Charlie Kolb. The TRC was sold to Gordon for Jim Sutter or directly to Jim.

The TR was black and came from Allan Connell, 0714. Think he sold it to Wayne
Burnett.

Attached are scans of Charlie in 0706 at Lime Rock and Connell in the TR at
Mansfield.

Do not know he has a web site. What is the link?

Regards,

David

Donald Greimel wrote:

> David,
>
> I put rings and bearings in his first Ferrari, a four cylinder car.  750
> Monza ??
> We stored the 250TR, serviced it, and managed to weld up a hole in a water
> pipe behind the engine by working with a torch and a mirror.  I loved that
> car and enjoyed taking to lunch.  The cops were not enthusiastic about those
> megaphones though :>).  Could have had it for $4800 and have been kicking
> myself for 40 years over that.  I did some service on the new Berlinetta but
> don't remember what.  Charlie sort of drifted away after taking up with my
> old girlfriend,  the buxom blond named Clair.  He took over Koopmans shop
> over in Kensington about that time and I didn't see much of him after that.
> Have you checked out Charlie's web site?  He has become something of a Monk.
>
> Cheers
> Don

David,

I put rings and bearings in his first Ferrari, a four cylinder car.  750
Monza ??
We stored the 250TR, serviced it, and managed to weld up a hole in a water
pipe behind the engine by working with a torch and a mirror.  I loved that
car and enjoyed taking to lunch.  The cops were not enthusiastic about those
megaphones though :>).  Could have had it for $4800 and have been kicking
myself for 40 years over that.  I did some service on the new Berlinetta but
don't remember what.  Charlie sort of drifted away after taking up with my
old girlfriend,  the buxom blond named Clair.  He took over Koopmans shop
over in Kensington about that time and I didn't see much of him after that.
Have you checked out Charlie's web site?  He has become something of a Monk.

Cheers
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: <scshmoo@...>
To: <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum


> Hi Don,
>
> Which of Hayes' car(s) did you work on?
>
> Bill Perro (?sp) also worked on the SWB I know.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Donald Greimel wrote:
>
>> David,  that was really interesting and informative.  I knew Gordon, and
>> Hayes and worked on Hayes cars some too at BK Foreign Car Clinic on River
>> Rd.  We also serviced some of Bill Marriotts cars as his headquarters was
>> just across the street and he lived only a mile or so away in Kenwood.
>> It
>> was an iteresting time.
>> Thanks
>> Don Greimel
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <scshmoo@...>
>> To: <Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Re: Gasoline Alley/Gordon Tatum
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > This is what I remember about Gordon Tatum, Jr.
>> >
>> > Hi Sam,
>> >
>> > A few corrections and clarifications. If there are mistakes let me
>> > know. I
>> > have
>> > not
>> > lived in the area since 1965 so all of this is buried deep in my, now
>> > faulty,
>> > memory.
>> >
>> > Gordon's father G.R., Sr was a Ph.D. in physics or electronics and
>> > during
>> > the
>> > war worked
>> > at Applied Physics Laboratory of Johns Hopkins University at 8621
>> > Georgia
>> > Avenue
>> > in
>> > Silver Spring. APL developed the VT fuse which was a radio controlled
>> > fuse
>> > for
>> > an
>> > artillery shell (call it smart flack). The VT fuse contained a radio
>> > transmitter/receiver with miniaturized vacuum tubes that would detonate
>> > a
>> > shell
>> > when it
>> > received an echo from something metal.  Remember this was five years
>> > before the
>> > transistor
>> > was invented (in 1947). The little radio,  vacuum tubes had to be able
>> > to
>> > withstand the shock of
>> > firing from an artillery gun. The power source was a vile of battery
>> > acid
>> > with
>> > plates. On
>> > firing the glass vial broke and the fluid contacted the plates making a
>> > battery
>> > that
>> > powered the transceiver and exploded the shell if it received an echo.
>> >
>> > Around 1952  Dr. Tatum left APL and formed Vitro Corporation of America
>> > which
>> > was
>> > another defense contractor. Vitro opened up in the Masonic building
>> > across
>> > from
>> > Pumphrey's (sp?) Funeral Home (SE corner of Wayne and Georgia Ave.).
>> > Later
>> > a
>> > campus was
>> > built on Georgia Avenue extended.
>> >
>> > Gordon grew up in Chevy Chase. The Tatum home was on Rosemary Street at
>> > Connecticut Ave.
>> > (forget the street number). Gordon was born 5 July 1941 or 42 and had a
>> > younger
>> > brother
>> > Bobby. Gordon has a high IQ, Bobby was less intelligent, but a nicer
>> > personality. Gordon
>> > was a rebellious teenager and was sent to military school (Fork Union?)
>> > from
>> > which he
>> > was quickly expelled. At 18 he enlisted in the USAF. Prior to that
>> > Gordon
>> > was
>> > interested
>> > in model airplanes and he could be seen flying them in the field at
>> > East
>> > West
>> > Highway
>> > and Rock Creek (or is it Beach?) Drive. In the mid 1950s he was playing
>> > with
>> > radio
>> > controlled .049 cc airplanes. Guess where those components came from!
>> > At
>> > 16
>> > Gordon moved
>> > on to hot rods and built a drag racer. Gordon was posted in Texas,
>> > where
>> > the B
>> > 36 was
>> > based and later at Andrews. He was a mechanic and/or quality control
>> > airman.
>> >
>> > Somehow he became interested in sports cars, specifically Ferraris. He
>> > liked
>> > working on
>> > engines and the Ferrari engine may have interested him, or the fact
>> > that
>> > it was
>> > associated with wealthy people may have been the attraction. While
>> > still
>> > in the
>> > USAF
>> > Gordon started working on Bob Hurt's 250 TR/59. Correct serial 0766 and
>> > Charlie
>> > Hayes'
>> > early Ferrari. Hayes started with an Austin Healey then had a 250 TR
>> > (0714
>> > and
>> > TRC 0660)
>> > which he used to park behind his apartment house in Cheesy Chase.
>> >
>> > Gordon opened Internal Combustion Engines after he was discharged from
>> > the
>> > USAF.
>> > Believe
>> > that was in August 1963. ICE was located behind the firehouse in
>> > Kensington (on
>> > East West
>> > Highway) at 3837 Plyers Mill Road and the famous alley. His known
>> > talent
>> > at
>> > building
>> > race engines and drive to be a wheeler dealer (which was to be the name
>> > of
>> > one
>> > of his
>> > gas dragsters) quickly established him as the place to take your
>> > foreign
>> > car.
>> > Tatum
>> > began buying old Ferrari from Chinetti, because they were exotic and
>> > cheap.
>> > Chinetti
>> > always insisted  on cash payments.
>> >
>> > Some of the early Ferrari that Tatum had in his shop which I recall
>> > are:
>> >
>> > 500 TRC 0660
>> > 500 TRC 0706
>> > 335S 0764
>> > Reventlow Scarab F1, uncompleted, #3
>> > SWB 3005
>> >
>> > There were also customer cars such as
>> > Hayes' SWB 2237
>> > Hurt's TR59 0766
>> > McKelvy's GTO 3223
>> >
>> > I remember being in Tatum's shop about the time it opened and being
>> > floored to
>> > see five
>> > Ferrari in one place at the same time.
>> >
>> > Charlie Hayes, by this time was also buying and selling Ferrari and
>> > other
>> > race
>> > cars.
>> > Gordon allowed Charlie to display his wares in the front of his shop.
>> > Hayes was
>> > still
>> > playing at jazz clubs (Especially Gino Hobbs' Knickerbocker cocktail
>> > lounge at
>> > 5510
>> > connecticut Ave.) and living in an apartment near BBC high school. One
>> > Hayes'
>> > car was an SWB 2243 that he
>> > bought from Al Garthwaite and sold to John Lundin. I remember going
>> > over
>> > to
>> > Plyers Mill
>> > late at night several times in the winter of 1964-65 to see a pair of
>> > beautiful
>> > SWBs on
>> > display. The red 2243 was with the dark blue 3005.  Gordon liked dark
>> > blue
>> > (Rob
>> > Walker
>> > blue) and painted many of his cars that color. Anyway I was able to buy
>> > 2243
>> > from Lundin
>> > in 1972 and owned it for 35 years. Small world!
>> >
>> > Bob Hurt continued to be a friend and would have his cars in the Plyers
>> > Mill
>> > shop too.
>> > Bob Hurt  sought to drive in the Indianapolis 500. Bobby made five
>> > trips
>> > to
>> > Indy. In
>> > 1964 with the Joe Hunt special #81 he did not attempt to qualify. 1965
>> > #43
>> > Jim
>> > Robbins
>> > car DNQ, 1966 #36 Viking Racing waved off qualifying run. In 1967 Hurt
>> > had
>> > his
>> > best
>> > chance with #29 sponsored by Rev 500 he put up a time of 161.261, but
>> > was
>> > bumped. He was
>> > back in 1968 with #73 and #14 backed by Quaker State Oil. Gordon had
>> > been
>> > to
>> > Indy with
>> > Hurt on some of these attempts and was there in 1968. Number 73 DNQ so
>> > Hurt
>> > switched to
>> > #14. During a run he spun out in Turn 1 and hit the wall backwards. A
>> > half
>> > shaft
>> > pushed
>> > into his back and broke it. His neck was also broken . He spent the
>> > rest
>> > of his
>> > life in
>> > a wheel chair. Gordon was deeply disappointed that he never had a piece
>> > of
>> > the
>> > Indy
>> > glory.
>> >
>> > As Tatum's fame grew he switched from drag racing (He went to the
>> > Winter
>> > Nationals in
>> > Tulsa one year in Top Fuel , but lost after he was run through a
>> > puddle,
>> > he
>> > says, during staging.) to
>> > sports car racing. His ego was big enough that he knew he was, or would
>> > be, a
>> > hot
>> > driver. To enhance the impression he showed up with some pretty hot
>> > machinery.
>> >
>> > Tatum's GTO was 3757 and he claimed another one, but the serial escapes
>> > me. He
>> > also went
>> > through some hot prototypes
>> >
>> > 250/330 P 0810
>> > 330P3 0844
>> > 330P3/350 Can Am 0860
>> >
>> > Gordon took his 3005 SWB and GTO to Marlboro for his license then
>> > started
>> > racing
>> > the
>> > 330P and P3 in dinky races. Bobby Hurt would come along, even though he
>> > was a
>> > professional by this point, and race against Gordon. Gordon also became
>> > a
>> > Lamborghini
>> > Authorized dealer. The orange Miura was 0979, an early P400 (build
>> > number
>> > 5)
>> > with engine
>> > 0953. It was the 1967 NY Auto Show car and tested in Car and Driver
>> > 8/67
>> > issue.
>> > Tatum
>> > had it on consignment and sold it to Norman Silver. Of course as a
>> > dealer
>> > he had
>> > a
>> > number of Lambos around. One he sold to Bill Marriott, whose father
>> > made
>> > him
>> > return it
>> > when he found out the cost.
>> >
>> > Around this time Tatum started to get into legal scrapes. He was
>> > accused
>> > of
>> > selling a
>> > 300 S Maserati to three different people, and taking payment from all
>> > three.
>> > There was also a "fraudulent bankruptcy."
>> >
>> > The 512S/M, 1028,  was raced at LM in 1971 by David Weir/David Piper
>> > and
>> > previously at
>> > Sebring 1971 and Daytona 1970 and in the McQueen move Le Mans. Gordon
>> > never
>> > drove the
>> > car in anger.
>> >
>> > In 1972 Tatum moved to Gaithersburg, first to 9121 Gaither Road where
>> > he
>> > opened
>> > a new
>> > company called Gemstone. This was prior to the Watergate revelations.
>> > Gordon
>> > thought he
>> > had found an angle who would set him back up and pay for his racing. A
>> > midwest
>> > doctor
>> > funded the 512 and a Daytona. The doctor was speculating with the
>> > family
>> > fortune
>> > in
>> > commodities and soon lost it all. He drove to a corn field in the
>> > Daytona,
>> > got
>> > out and
>> > shot himself. Bobby had to retrieve the Daytona which was up to its
>> > axles
>> > in
>> > mud.
>> >
>> > While all this was going on Gordon had become involved with Tom Meade
>> > in
>> > importing gray
>> > market cars from Italy. The stories are controversial, but Tatum took
>> > money from
>> > people
>> > and bought cars from Meade. The problem was that Tatum had sold one
>> > kind
>> > of car
>> > and
>> > Meade sent another (sold GTO, received GT/E). One of the buyers
>> > complained
>> > and
>> > it became
>> > a Federal wire/mail fraud case for which Gordon was convicted and was
>> > sentenced
>> > to
>> > Allenwood. Spent March 1974 to mid 1975 at Allenwood. Ironically he
>> > ended
>> > up
>> > doing time
>> > with some of the Watergate conspirators (Jeb Stuart McGrudder was one).
>> >
>> > While Gordon was "up the road" Bobby moved the shop to 9085 Comprint
>> > Court
>> > in
>> > Gaithersburg, later called MPG, Inc . After he got out Gordon tapped
>> > friends for
>> > funds to buy
>> > some pretty exotic Ferrari. This is when he bought the 712 Can Am
>> > (1010)
>> > and
>> > 312B GP
>> > (004) from Chinetti. Luigi would accept cash only.  He still had
>> > possession of
>> > the 512M,
>> > although technically the suicide doctor's estate claimed to own it.
>> > Gordon
>> > was
>> > able to
>> > rebuild a business until he ran into trouble again over alleged
>> > fraudulent
>> > sales. He was
>> > convicted again of a business crime.
>> >
>> > He next relocated to a shop by the Montgomery County Airport. He
>> > remained
>> > there
>> > battling
>> > various law suits for about 10 years. I understand he is now in a small
>> > shop on
>> > Shady
>> > Grove Road.
>> >
>> > Sorry to be so long. I have more to add about "The Alley" and some of
>> > the
>> > characters and
>> > high jinks that went on there if anyone is interested.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > David Seielstad
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Yeah, after six beers he even charmed me! (Or something like that!)

But I got over it by the morning ...

Rick Mandelson wrote:
> *Bill, that does go way back.*
> **
> *Rick*
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Bill Davis <mailto:eandbdavis@...>
>     *To:* Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com
>     <mailto:Marlboro_Raceway@yahoogroups.com>
>     *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 12:22 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Marlboro_Raceway] Down Memory Lane..
>
>     The Ole Brick....... I remember one racer who charmed my
>     6 year old daughter, to the point she said she would marry
>     him someday.......his name ummmmm ..... Rick Mandelson.
>
>     HAHA
>
>