Thanks David.  That's a great little movie, and the first youtube
  video that I thought was worth a damn.<G> That should settle any
  argument about when the barrel moves within the slide.

  That pretty well illustrates that the bullet exits long before
  the slide moves back enough to begin unlocking the barrel.
   Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 10:41:40 PM, you wrote:

DH> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5PHkv3f-9U

DH>  Regards,
DH> David Hoobler
DH> “Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.” -
Benjamin Franklin






DH> ________________________________
DH> From: Jack F <gunsmith@...>
DH> To: John Caradimas <M-1911@yahoogroups.com>
DH> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:19:27 PM
DH> Subject: Re[4]: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup



DH> John, sorry, I may have not been clear about just what initially
DH> moves.   Rearward movement of the barrel in the slide towards unlocking
DH> can NEVER begin until the bullet has exited the barrel. Slide/barrel are
DH> locked together by opposing pressures against the breech and the drag
DH> of the bullet being driven down the barrel until the bullet exits.

DH> The slide can move rearward slightly to accept the energy for recoil
DH> loading.  It is this movement that must be controlled by the recoil
DH> spring.  That is within the 1/4" that I was speaking of, and it should
DH> be controlled to a minimum with the recoil spring for best accuracy.
DH> If the slide moves that full 1/4" the link may begin to pull down
DH> on the barrel and disturb grouping.

DH> In short, the least rearwards movement of the slide necessary to collect
DH> the kinetic energy for reloading will give the best grouping.

DH> I like to set guns up to dump cases within 5 feet of the shooter.
DH> Regards, Jack F
DH> ============ ========= ========
DH> Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
DH> <http://www.gunsmith .fuselier. com> East Texas

DH> Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:42:07 AM, you wrote:

JC>> On Sep 22, 2009, at 05:03 , Jack F wrote:

>>> A properly fitted 1911 barrel can have up to 1/4" excursion before
>>> dropping. This is a little appreciated part of the 1911 design.
>>> If the barrel moves before the bullet exits grouping suffers.

JC>> Let me clarify one thing:

JC>> The barrel starts moving the same moment the bullet starts moving. So
JC>> it has moved a little before the bullet exits, but that movement is in
JC>> the horizontal, longitudinal axis. After approximately 1/4", when it
JC>> is sure that the bullet has exited the muzzle, the barrel is pulled
JC>> downwards by the link, unlocking the barrel from the slide.

JC>> ------------ -----
JC>> John Caradimas
JC>> sv1cec@...







DH> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is one of Tripp videos. We have all these in our sites.

-----------------
John Caradimas
sv1cec@...



On Sep 23, 2009, at 06:41 , David Hoobler wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5PHkv3f-9U
>
> Regards,
> David Hoobler
> “Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to
> learn.” - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jack F <gunsmith@...>
> To: John Caradimas <M-1911@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:19:27 PM
> Subject: Re[4]: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup
>
>
>
> John, sorry, I may have not been clear about just what initially
> moves.   Rearward movement of the barrel in the slide towards
> unlocking
> can NEVER begin until the bullet has exited the barrel. Slide/barrel
> are
> locked together by opposing pressures against the breech and the drag
> of the bullet being driven down the barrel until the bullet exits.
>
> The slide can move rearward slightly to accept the energy for recoil
> loading.  It is this movement that must be controlled by the recoil
> spring.  That is within the 1/4" that I was speaking of, and it should
> be controlled to a minimum with the recoil spring for best accuracy.
> If the slide moves that full 1/4" the link may begin to pull down
> on the barrel and disturb grouping.
>
> In short, the least rearwards movement of the slide necessary to
> collect
> the kinetic energy for reloading will give the best grouping.
>
> I like to set guns up to dump cases within 5 feet of the shooter.
> Regards, Jack F
> ============ ========= ========
> Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
> <http://www.gunsmith .fuselier. com> East Texas
>
> Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:42:07 AM, you wrote:
>
> JC> On Sep 22, 2009, at 05:03 , Jack F wrote:
>
>>> A properly fitted 1911 barrel can have up to 1/4" excursion before
>>> dropping. This is a little appreciated part of the 1911 design.
>>> If the barrel moves before the bullet exits grouping suffers.
>
> JC> Let me clarify one thing:
>
> JC> The barrel starts moving the same moment the bullet starts
> moving. So
> JC> it has moved a little before the bullet exits, but that movement
> is in
> JC> the horizontal, longitudinal axis. After approximately 1/4",
> when it
> JC> is sure that the bullet has exited the muzzle, the barrel is
> pulled
> JC> downwards by the link, unlocking the barrel from the slide.
>
> JC> ------------ -----
> JC> John Caradimas
> JC> sv1cec@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Brought to you, by the:
>
> M-1911 Pistols Organization
> http://www.m1911.org
>
> To unsubscribe: Send an e-mail to:
>
> M-1911-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Be sure you send the e-mail using the same address
> as the one you subscribed from.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5PHkv3f-9U

  Regards,
David Hoobler
“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.” -
Benjamin Franklin






________________________________
From: Jack F <gunsmith@...>
To: John Caradimas <M-1911@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:19:27 PM
Subject: Re[4]: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup



John, sorry, I may have not been clear about just what initially
moves.   Rearward movement of the barrel in the slide towards unlocking
can NEVER begin until the bullet has exited the barrel. Slide/barrel are
locked together by opposing pressures against the breech and the drag
of the bullet being driven down the barrel until the bullet exits.

The slide can move rearward slightly to accept the energy for recoil
loading.  It is this movement that must be controlled by the recoil
spring.  That is within the 1/4" that I was speaking of, and it should
be controlled to a minimum with the recoil spring for best accuracy.
If the slide moves that full 1/4" the link may begin to pull down
on the barrel and disturb grouping.

In short, the least rearwards movement of the slide necessary to collect
the kinetic energy for reloading will give the best grouping.

I like to set guns up to dump cases within 5 feet of the shooter.
Regards, Jack F
============ ========= ========
Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
<http://www.gunsmith .fuselier. com> East Texas

Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:42:07 AM, you wrote:

JC> On Sep 22, 2009, at 05:03 , Jack F wrote:

>> A properly fitted 1911 barrel can have up to 1/4" excursion before
>> dropping. This is a little appreciated part of the 1911 design.
>> If the barrel moves before the bullet exits grouping suffers.

JC> Let me clarify one thing:

JC> The barrel starts moving the same moment the bullet starts moving. So
JC> it has moved a little before the bullet exits, but that movement is in
JC> the horizontal, longitudinal axis. After approximately 1/4", when it
JC> is sure that the bullet has exited the muzzle, the barrel is pulled
JC> downwards by the link, unlocking the barrel from the slide.

JC> ------------ -----
JC> John Caradimas
JC> sv1cec@...







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John, sorry, I may have not been clear about just what initially
moves.   Rearward movement of the barrel in the slide towards unlocking
can NEVER begin until the bullet has exited the barrel. Slide/barrel are
locked together by opposing pressures against the breech and the drag
of the bullet being driven down the barrel until the bullet exits.

The slide can move rearward slightly to accept the energy for recoil
loading.  It is this movement that must be controlled by the recoil
spring.  That is within the 1/4" that I was speaking of, and it should
be controlled to a minimum with the recoil spring for best accuracy.
If the slide moves that full 1/4" the link may begin to pull down
on the barrel and disturb grouping.

In short, the least rearwards movement of the slide necessary to collect
the kinetic energy for reloading will give the best grouping.

I like to set guns up to dump cases within 5 feet of the shooter.
  Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:42:07 AM, you wrote:

JC> On Sep 22, 2009, at 05:03 , Jack F wrote:

>> A properly fitted 1911 barrel can have up to 1/4" excursion before
>> dropping. This is a little appreciated part of the 1911 design.
>> If the barrel moves before the bullet exits grouping suffers.

JC> Let me clarify one thing:

JC> The barrel starts moving the same moment the bullet starts moving. So
JC> it has moved a little before the bullet exits, but that movement is in
JC> the horizontal, longitudinal axis. After approximately 1/4", when it
JC> is sure that the bullet has exited the muzzle, the barrel is pulled
JC> downwards by the link, unlocking the barrel from the slide.

JC> -----------------
JC> John Caradimas
JC> sv1cec@...

John's point can be shown by the law of conservation of momentum.  Before the
gun fires. it has a velocity of zero, and hence, zero momentum.  The momentum of
the gun/bullet must remain zero until the bullet exits the barrel.  As the
bullet moves down the barrel, its velocity is not zero, so its momentum is not
zero.  The sum of the momentum of the gun/bullet must be zero, so the gun must
have momentum equal and opposite to that of the bullet.  The gun must have
velocity before the bullet exits for it to have non-zero momentum.

  Regards,
David Hoobler
“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.” -
Benjamin Franklin






________________________________
From: John Caradimas <sv1cec@...>
To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:42:07 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup


On Sep 22, 2009, at 05:03 , Jack F wrote:

> A properly fitted 1911 barrel can have up to 1/4" excursion before
> dropping. This is a little appreciated part of the 1911 design.
> If the barrel moves before the bullet exits grouping suffers.

Let me clarify one thing:

The barrel starts moving the same moment the bullet starts moving. So
it has moved a little before the bullet exits, but that movement is in
the horizontal, longitudinal axis. After approximately 1/4", when it
is sure that the bullet has exited the muzzle, the barrel is pulled
downwards by the link, unlocking the barrel from the slide.

------------ -----
John Caradimas
sv1cec@...







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sep 22, 2009, at 05:03 , Jack F wrote:

> A properly fitted 1911 barrel can have up to 1/4" excursion before
> dropping. This is a little appreciated part of the 1911 design.
> If the barrel moves before the bullet exits grouping suffers.

Let me clarify one thing:

The barrel starts moving the same moment the bullet starts moving. So
it has moved a little before the bullet exits, but that movement is in
the horizontal, longitudinal axis. After approximately 1/4", when it
is sure that the bullet has exited the muzzle, the barrel is pulled
downwards by the link, unlocking the barrel from the slide.

-----------------
John Caradimas
sv1cec@...

I wouldn't go quite that far myself, TRB.  I do think that the link
helps to lift the barrel to slide up on the cross shaft, but it
should not be what determines the height in lockup.  Other guns
that use the dropping barrel without the link have a better glide
path but perhaps a shorter barrel excursion before dropping.
A KelTec P-11, for instance retracts about 1/8" before dropping.

A properly fitted 1911 barrel can have up to 1/4" excursion before
dropping. This is a little appreciated part of the 1911 design.
If the barrel moves before the bullet exits grouping suffers.

This gets back to another reason for bad grouping, a weak recoil spring
that allows recoil too early and breech opening while there are hot gases
still in the chamber.  Ideally, all pressure gone and perhaps even a
slight vacuum is good for both better grouping and unstained cases.

I regret that I never counted the 1911s I have "Accurized" into tight
groups with nothing more than a stronger recoil spring, but surely it
must be well into the hundreds.<G>  Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:32:04 PM, you wrote:

T> What John just said is exactly what I meant when I said almost all mass
produced pistols have wrong lower lug geometry.  And Jack F even gave the link
too much credit; it's sole purpose is to pull
T> the barrel down for unlocking.  Relocking in a custom fit gun is a sole
function of the lower lugs ramping up and over the slide stop shaft. In a barrel
that has been fitted so, a proper length
T> link is easily chosen by simply matching it to the lower lugs; too long and
the upper lugs will bind, too short and the lower lugs will bind. Many gunsmiths
still run the links too long, which is
T> one of the reasons you run into customs that have to have their muzzles
slapped on a table to get them to unlock when trying to hand cycle them.  The
other reason being lower lugs that weren't
T> radiused.  Then you get the lazy pistolsmith telling you to LOOK HOW TIGHT IT
IS and then you either get it fixed by someone who actually knows what they're
doing or shoot 2500 rounds through it
T> and hope the lugs seat before the slide stop breaks.
T> MarSOC W: I'm not trying to flame you, if it works on your gun, great, I just
wanted to make it clear that link replacement shouldn't be regarded as a
fix-all.  And most of this post is just
T> random rambling. I do that a lot in my old age, especially when I'm in a good
mood. Which I am.  I just put a fully race prepped YZF-R6 track bike in my
garage and I feel great B-D

T> -TRB

T>   ----- Original Message -----
T>   From: John Caradimas
T>   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
T>   Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:29 PM
T>   Subject: Re: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup


T>     Well, it all depends on the pistol. Most mass produced pistols use the
T>   link to lock the barrel. To check it out, with the slide in battery
T>   (i.e. forward) press down on the part of the barrel which shows inside
T>   the ejection port. If it moves down at all, then your barrel locks by
T>   the link. Most USGI pistols were set up that way.

T>   Custom pistols though, or at least those build with some attention, do
T>   indeed lock the barrel by the barrel feet and the slide stop shaft, as
T>   Jack said. That's the correct way for the barrel to lock.

T>   -----------------
T>   John Caradimas
T>   sv1cec@...

T>   On Sep 21, 2009, at 20:45 , Jack F wrote:

T>   >
T>   > This is an interesting letter, and all I can say about it is that
T>   > it shows how pervasive is the mistaken theory that the link is what
T>   > holds up the barrel while in battery. In battery the barrel should
T>   > rest on the feet, evenly supported by the latch shaft. The link is
T>   > only supposed to do two things. First, it lifts the barrel so that
T>   > it can slide up on the latch shaft in battery. Second, it pulls the
T>   > barrel down against the frame when the breech is open to minimize
T>   > loading failures.
T>   >
T>   > Various Link lengths are available, but they are to adjust the pull
T>   > down when loading, not to adjust the height of the barrel in battery.
T>   > If the latter was the case, why should the barrel feet be fitted at
T>   > all? Nothing but the link would matter, and it would not even need
T>   > feet. Surely that should give you some pause for thought.
T>   >
T>   > While the 1911 is such a great design it may very well work the way
T>   > you describe, it gives away the best part of a great design which
T>   > controls the depth of insertion into the top locking lugs and also
T>   > furnishes a stable three point support of the barrel for the best
T>   > accuracy and minimum rotation of the barrel by bullet torque.
T>   > Regards, Jack F
T>   > =============================
T>   > Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
T>   > <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas
T>   >
T>   >
T>   > Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:51:10 AM, you wrote:
T>   >
T>   > a> TRB
T>   > a> If I may, Ill explain myself little more in depth. Having this
T>   > piece of steel for 10 plus years, I have ran approx. 30,000+ rounds
T>   > through her. And shes been in every climate and place where ever
T>   > a> I take my gun. Except Iraq and Afgan of course. Now about the
T>   > link, I took my Gold Cup to my well trusted gunsmith and asked for a
T>   > tune up since the work that was last done was just after the
T>   > a> purchase about 14 years ago. I told him about the mods I
T>   > performed under watchful experienced eyes and he rogered up with
T>   > theres no tue up nessesary.
T>   > a> Now, he pointed out about the slight looseness at the breach. We
T>   > broke her down and he knew exactly what was wrong. We measured the
T>   > link and you can tell I have abused this soul saver to much. The
T>   > a> measurements came started with the original link from Colt, .281,
T>   > the edges were somewhat round and smooth. We reviewed shop books,
T>   > found the sizes, double checke our info, put her back together,
T>   > a> did a firing pin/ primer indent test and were sitting center.
T>   > a> A slight bounce like this "could", "will", or "will not" add an
T>   > inch or 2 to your group. So taking that chance the option was
T>   > offered to only go to a #4 link, .283 and I took it. After the
T>   > a> install ran some rubbing test and she fit snug. Ran another
T>   > firing pin/ primer tent test and the impact was .021 inches off
T>   > center. If curious, I just competed in a local man on man steel shoot
T>   > a> here in Las Vegas, running well over 200+ rounds and not a single
T>   > problem.
T>   >
T>   > a> Im sorry to bore everyone with my rambling, but I though I should
T>   > lay out more of the details. And thank you for putting up with me..
T>   >
T>   > a> Be safe,
T>   > a> MarSOC W
T>   >
T>   > a> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "TRB" <TRB@...> wrote:
T>   >>>
T>   >>> I can't agree with your second suggestion. Putting a longer link
T>   >>> in a 1911 without refitting the barrel, can, if the link ends up
T>   >>> too long, cause any or all of the following:
T>   >>> 1: Link failure
T>   >>> 2: Slide stop failure
T>   >>> 3: Lower barrel locking lug failure
T>   >>> 4: Impaction of the upper lugs and
T>   >>> 5: Subsequent peening of the upper barrel locking lugs and/or
T>   >>> their matching slots in the slide.
T>   >>>
T>   >>> Manufacturing tolerances dictate that most all factory assembled
T>   >>> 1911s have completely wrong lower lug geometry, and trying to
T>   >>> crutch that by fiddling with the link is only going to compromise
T>   >>> the
T>   >>> reliability and longevity of the weapon.
T>   >>>
T>   >>> -TRB
T>   >>>
T>   >>> ----- Original Message -----
T>   >>> From: andreww
T>   >>> To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
T>   >>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:45 PM
T>   >>> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup
T>   >>>
T>   >>>
T>   >>> Tim
T>   >>> I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not
T>   >>> read all of the replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few
T>   >>> things I do know that will help improve function as well as
T>   >>> accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel bushing, (2) with the
T>   >>> slide forward in a forward locked position press down on the
T>   >>> throat (chamber area) of the barrel. If you get any play and I mean
T>   >>> any, it would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your
T>   >>> current barrel link.
T>   >>>
T>   >>> The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of
T>   >>> the box shoot a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the
T>   >>> mentioned above, tightened the slide to the frame and did a nice
T>   >>> trigger job while I was at it and tightene my group down to 3-4
T>   >>> inches.
T>   >>>
T>   >>> Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.
T>   >>>
T>   >>> MarSOC Wick
T>   >>>
T>   >>> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@> wrote:
T>   >>>>
T>   >>>> I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as
T>   >>>> though it
T>   >>>> starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or
T>   >>>> so, and
T>   >>>> gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out
T>   >>>> dead on
T>   >>>> eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A
T>   >>>> routine field
T>   >>>> stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is
T>   >>>> cleaned, it
T>   >>>> will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out
T>   >>>> to the
T>   >>>> left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000
T>   >>>> rounds
T>   >>>> though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting
T>   >>>> guns that
T>   >>>> frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
T>   >>>>
T>   >>>> Any ideas?
T>   >>>>
T>   >>>> -Tim
T>   >
T>   >
T>   >
T>   > ------------------------------------
T>   >
T>   > Brought to you, by the:
T>   >
T>   > M-1911 Pistols Organization
T>   > http://www.m1911.org
T>   >
T>   > To unsubscribe: Send an e-mail to:
T>   >
T>   > M-1911-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
T>   >
T>   > Be sure you send the e-mail using the same address
T>   > as the one you subscribed from.Yahoo! Groups Links
T>   >
T>   >
T>   >





T> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, John,
certainly not you because you had already stated your case.

Earlier the idea was inferred that the different lengths of
link are produced to adjust the barrel lift into lockup.
I realize that without a deeper understanding of how the
pistol works this does seem simple and logical, and of
course that is why it has become so common.<G>

When a would be 1911 gunsmith finally gets around to building
guns instead of assembling parts they realize that a barrel
fitted with precision tools is really the heart of the 1911,
and should be appreciated for the wonderful design that john
Browning gave us.<G>
Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Monday, September 21, 2009, 3:32:25 PM, you wrote:

JC> Jack, that's what I said, isn't it?

JC> But I have to admit you lost me towards the end. Whom are you
JC> referring to with the last paragraph, shown below?

JC> -----------------
JC> John Caradimas
JC> sv1cec@...



JC> On Sep 21, 2009, at 23:17 , Jack F wrote:
>>
>>   I've heard his argument for all of my life, and my only answer is
>>   that is one purports to be a 1911 gunsmith and does not try to set
>>   the gun up properly he is only a pretender, at best.
>>   Regards, Jack F

What John just said is exactly what I meant when I said almost all mass produced
pistols have wrong lower lug geometry.  And Jack F even gave the link too much
credit; it's sole purpose is to pull the barrel down for unlocking.  Relocking
in a custom fit gun is a sole function of the lower lugs ramping up and over the
slide stop shaft. In a barrel that has been fitted so, a proper length link is
easily chosen by simply matching it to the lower lugs; too long and the upper
lugs will bind, too short and the lower lugs will bind. Many gunsmiths still run
the links too long, which is one of the reasons you run into customs that have
to have their muzzles slapped on a table to get them to unlock when trying to
hand cycle them.  The other reason being lower lugs that weren't radiused.  Then
you get the lazy pistolsmith telling you to LOOK HOW TIGHT IT IS and then you
either get it fixed by someone who actually knows what they're doing or shoot
2500 rounds through it and hope the lugs seat before the slide stop breaks.
MarSOC W: I'm not trying to flame you, if it works on your gun, great, I just
wanted to make it clear that link replacement shouldn't be regarded as a
fix-all.  And most of this post is just random rambling. I do that a lot in my
old age, especially when I'm in a good mood. Which I am.  I just put a fully
race prepped YZF-R6 track bike in my garage and I feel great B-D

-TRB

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Caradimas
   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:29 PM
   Subject: Re: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup


     Well, it all depends on the pistol. Most mass produced pistols use the
   link to lock the barrel. To check it out, with the slide in battery
   (i.e. forward) press down on the part of the barrel which shows inside
   the ejection port. If it moves down at all, then your barrel locks by
   the link. Most USGI pistols were set up that way.

   Custom pistols though, or at least those build with some attention, do
   indeed lock the barrel by the barrel feet and the slide stop shaft, as
   Jack said. That's the correct way for the barrel to lock.

   -----------------
   John Caradimas
   sv1cec@...

   On Sep 21, 2009, at 20:45 , Jack F wrote:

   >
   > This is an interesting letter, and all I can say about it is that
   > it shows how pervasive is the mistaken theory that the link is what
   > holds up the barrel while in battery. In battery the barrel should
   > rest on the feet, evenly supported by the latch shaft. The link is
   > only supposed to do two things. First, it lifts the barrel so that
   > it can slide up on the latch shaft in battery. Second, it pulls the
   > barrel down against the frame when the breech is open to minimize
   > loading failures.
   >
   > Various Link lengths are available, but they are to adjust the pull
   > down when loading, not to adjust the height of the barrel in battery.
   > If the latter was the case, why should the barrel feet be fitted at
   > all? Nothing but the link would matter, and it would not even need
   > feet. Surely that should give you some pause for thought.
   >
   > While the 1911 is such a great design it may very well work the way
   > you describe, it gives away the best part of a great design which
   > controls the depth of insertion into the top locking lugs and also
   > furnishes a stable three point support of the barrel for the best
   > accuracy and minimum rotation of the barrel by bullet torque.
   > Regards, Jack F
   > =============================
   > Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
   > <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas
   >
   >
   > Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:51:10 AM, you wrote:
   >
   > a> TRB
   > a> If I may, Ill explain myself little more in depth. Having this
   > piece of steel for 10 plus years, I have ran approx. 30,000+ rounds
   > through her. And shes been in every climate and place where ever
   > a> I take my gun. Except Iraq and Afgan of course. Now about the
   > link, I took my Gold Cup to my well trusted gunsmith and asked for a
   > tune up since the work that was last done was just after the
   > a> purchase about 14 years ago. I told him about the mods I
   > performed under watchful experienced eyes and he rogered up with
   > theres no tue up nessesary.
   > a> Now, he pointed out about the slight looseness at the breach. We
   > broke her down and he knew exactly what was wrong. We measured the
   > link and you can tell I have abused this soul saver to much. The
   > a> measurements came started with the original link from Colt, .281,
   > the edges were somewhat round and smooth. We reviewed shop books,
   > found the sizes, double checke our info, put her back together,
   > a> did a firing pin/ primer indent test and were sitting center.
   > a> A slight bounce like this "could", "will", or "will not" add an
   > inch or 2 to your group. So taking that chance the option was
   > offered to only go to a #4 link, .283 and I took it. After the
   > a> install ran some rubbing test and she fit snug. Ran another
   > firing pin/ primer tent test and the impact was .021 inches off
   > center. If curious, I just competed in a local man on man steel shoot
   > a> here in Las Vegas, running well over 200+ rounds and not a single
   > problem.
   >
   > a> Im sorry to bore everyone with my rambling, but I though I should
   > lay out more of the details. And thank you for putting up with me..
   >
   > a> Be safe,
   > a> MarSOC W
   >
   > a> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "TRB" <TRB@...> wrote:
   >>>
   >>> I can't agree with your second suggestion. Putting a longer link
   >>> in a 1911 without refitting the barrel, can, if the link ends up
   >>> too long, cause any or all of the following:
   >>> 1: Link failure
   >>> 2: Slide stop failure
   >>> 3: Lower barrel locking lug failure
   >>> 4: Impaction of the upper lugs and
   >>> 5: Subsequent peening of the upper barrel locking lugs and/or
   >>> their matching slots in the slide.
   >>>
   >>> Manufacturing tolerances dictate that most all factory assembled
   >>> 1911s have completely wrong lower lug geometry, and trying to
   >>> crutch that by fiddling with the link is only going to compromise
   >>> the
   >>> reliability and longevity of the weapon.
   >>>
   >>> -TRB
   >>>
   >>> ----- Original Message -----
   >>> From: andreww
   >>> To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
   >>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:45 PM
   >>> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup
   >>>
   >>>
   >>> Tim
   >>> I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not
   >>> read all of the replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few
   >>> things I do know that will help improve function as well as
   >>> accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel bushing, (2) with the
   >>> slide forward in a forward locked position press down on the
   >>> throat (chamber area) of the barrel. If you get any play and I mean
   >>> any, it would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your
   >>> current barrel link.
   >>>
   >>> The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of
   >>> the box shoot a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the
   >>> mentioned above, tightened the slide to the frame and did a nice
   >>> trigger job while I was at it and tightene my group down to 3-4
   >>> inches.
   >>>
   >>> Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.
   >>>
   >>> MarSOC Wick
   >>>
   >>> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@> wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>> I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as
   >>>> though it
   >>>> starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or
   >>>> so, and
   >>>> gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out
   >>>> dead on
   >>>> eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A
   >>>> routine field
   >>>> stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is
   >>>> cleaned, it
   >>>> will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out
   >>>> to the
   >>>> left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000
   >>>> rounds
   >>>> though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting
   >>>> guns that
   >>>> frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
   >>>>
   >>>> Any ideas?
   >>>>
   >>>> -Tim
   >
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Brought to you, by the:
   >
   > M-1911 Pistols Organization
   > http://www.m1911.org
   >
   > To unsubscribe: Send an e-mail to:
   >
   > M-1911-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   >
   > Be sure you send the e-mail using the same address
   > as the one you subscribed from.Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jack, that's what I said, isn't it?

But I have to admit you lost me towards the end. Whom are you
referring to with the last paragraph, shown below?

-----------------
John Caradimas
sv1cec@...



On Sep 21, 2009, at 23:17 , Jack F wrote:
>
>   I've heard his argument for all of my life, and my only answer is
>   that is one purports to be a 1911 gunsmith and does not try to set
>   the gun up properly he is only a pretender, at best.
>   Regards, Jack F

Yes, John, the pistol will work that way.  No argument there,
    except that a solid engagement with the top lugs is better
    when the barrel is held up by the latch shaft, and accuracy
    may be sacrificed.  There is an enormous amount of torque on
    the barrel by accelerating a bullet in the rifling, and this
    attempts to rotate the barrel on the its three supports, the
    feet, the bushing, and the slot in which the hood is held.

    These do not let it rotate in line with the center of the bore,
    so any movement will affect accuracy.

    Depending on the link to keep well engaged in the top lugs is
    not the best IMO, because in time the lugs will round off
    unless held solidly in at least .03" engagement.  This can
    be measured easily, BTW, with a dial caliper.

    Since the Military issue was never an example for accuracy, no
    one particularly cared and this canard about the link persists.

    The other function of the link, however, is not so easily
    dismissed.  If it is too short, it will draw the barrel down
    prematurely and be subjected to a lot of stress as the barrel
    is driven back. It may even break while slamming the barrel down
    prematurely.  If too long, he barrel floats off the frame and
    this could interfere with proper reception of the cartridge
    from the magazine.

    I've heard his argument for all of my life, and my only answer is
    that is one purports to be a 1911 gunsmith and does not try to set
    the gun up properly he is only a pretender, at best.
    Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Monday, September 21, 2009, 1:29:29 PM, you wrote:

JC> Well, it all depends on the pistol. Most mass produced pistols use the
JC> link to lock the barrel. To check it out, with the slide in battery
JC> (i.e. forward) press down on the part of the barrel which shows inside
JC> the ejection port. If it moves down at all, then your barrel locks by
JC> the link. Most USGI pistols were set up that way.

JC> Custom pistols though, or at least those build with some attention, do
JC> indeed lock the barrel by the barrel feet and the slide stop shaft, as
JC> Jack said. That's the correct way for the barrel to lock.

JC> -----------------
JC> John Caradimas
JC> sv1cec@...



JC> On Sep 21, 2009, at 20:45 , Jack F wrote:

>>
>>   This is an interesting letter, and all I can say about it is that
>>  it shows how pervasive is the mistaken theory that the link is what
>>  holds up the barrel while in battery.  In battery the barrel should
>>  rest on the feet, evenly supported by the latch shaft.  The link is
>>  only supposed to do two things.  First, it lifts the barrel so that
>>  it can slide up on the latch shaft in battery.  Second, it pulls the
>>  barrel down against the frame when the breech is open to minimize
>>  loading failures.
>>
>>  Various Link lengths are available, but they are to adjust the pull
>>  down when loading, not to adjust the height of the barrel in battery.
>>  If the latter was the case, why should the barrel feet be fitted at
>>  all?  Nothing but the link would matter, and it would not even need
>>  feet.  Surely that should give you some pause for thought.
>>
>>  While the 1911 is such a great design it may very well work the way
>>  you describe, it gives away the best part of a great design which
>>  controls the depth of insertion into the top locking lugs and also
>>  furnishes a stable three point support of the barrel for the best
>>  accuracy and minimum rotation of the barrel by bullet torque.
>>    Regards, Jack F
>>                  =============================
>>     Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
>>               <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas
>>
>>
>> Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:51:10 AM, you wrote:
>>
>> a> TRB
>> a> If I may, Ill explain myself little more in depth. Having this
>> piece of steel for 10 plus years, I have ran approx. 30,000+ rounds
>> through her. And shes been in every climate and place where ever
>> a> I take my gun. Except Iraq and Afgan of course. Now about the
>> link, I took my Gold Cup to my well trusted gunsmith and asked for a
>> tune up since the work that was last done was just after the
>> a> purchase about 14 years ago. I told him about the mods I
>> performed under watchful experienced eyes and he rogered up with
>> theres no tue up nessesary.
>> a> Now, he pointed out about the slight looseness at the breach. We
>> broke her down and he knew exactly what was wrong. We measured the
>> link and you can tell I have abused this soul saver to much. The
>> a> measurements came started with the original link from Colt, .281,
>> the edges were somewhat round and smooth. We reviewed shop books,
>> found the sizes, double checke our info, put her back together,
>> a> did a firing pin/ primer indent test and were sitting center.
>> a>  A slight bounce like this "could", "will", or "will not" add an
>> inch or 2 to your group. So taking that chance the option was
>> offered to only go to a #4 link, .283 and I took it. After the
>> a> install ran some rubbing test and she fit snug. Ran another
>> firing pin/ primer tent test and the impact was .021 inches off
>> center. If curious, I just competed in a local man on man steel shoot
>> a> here in Las Vegas, running well over 200+ rounds and not a single
>> problem.
>>
>> a> Im sorry to bore everyone with my rambling, but I though I should
>> lay out more of the details. And thank you for putting up with me..
>>
>> a> Be safe,
>> a> MarSOC W
>>
>> a> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "TRB" <TRB@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't agree with your second suggestion.  Putting a longer link
>>>> in a 1911 without refitting the barrel, can, if the link ends up
>>>> too long, cause any or all of the following:
>>>> 1: Link failure
>>>> 2: Slide stop failure
>>>> 3: Lower barrel locking lug failure
>>>> 4: Impaction of the upper lugs and
>>>> 5: Subsequent peening of the upper barrel locking lugs and/or
>>>> their matching slots in the slide.
>>>>
>>>> Manufacturing tolerances dictate that most all factory assembled
>>>> 1911s have completely wrong lower lug geometry, and trying to
>>>> crutch that by fiddling with the link is only going to compromise
>>>> the
>>>> reliability and longevity of the weapon.
>>>>
>>>> -TRB
>>>>
>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>  From: andreww
>>>>  To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
>>>>  Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:45 PM
>>>>  Subject: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Tim
>>>>  I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not
>>>> read all of the replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few
>>>> things I do know that will help improve function as well as
>>>> accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel bushing, (2) with the
>>>> slide forward in a forward locked position press down on the
>>>> throat (chamber area) of the barrel. If you get any play and I mean
>>>> any, it would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your
>>>> current barrel link.
>>>>
>>>>  The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of
>>>> the box shoot a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the
>>>> mentioned above, tightened the slide to the frame and did a nice
>>>> trigger job while I was at it and tightene my group down to 3-4
>>>> inches.
>>>>
>>>>  Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.
>>>>
>>>>  MarSOC Wick
>>>>
>>>>  --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as
>>>>> though it
>>>>> starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or
>>>>> so, and
>>>>> gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out
>>>>> dead on
>>>>> eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A
>>>>> routine field
>>>>> stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is
>>>>> cleaned, it
>>>>> will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out
>>>>> to the
>>>>> left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000
>>>>> rounds
>>>>> though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting
>>>>> guns that
>>>>> frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Brought to you, by the:
>>
>> M-1911 Pistols Organization
>> http://www.m1911.org
>>
>> To unsubscribe: Send an e-mail to:
>>
>> M-1911-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Be sure you send the e-mail using the same address
>> as the one you subscribed from.Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>

Well, it all depends on the pistol. Most mass produced pistols use the
link to lock the barrel. To check it out, with the slide in battery
(i.e. forward) press down on the part of the barrel which shows inside
the ejection port. If it moves down at all, then your barrel locks by
the link. Most USGI pistols were set up that way.

Custom pistols though, or at least those build with some attention, do
indeed lock the barrel by the barrel feet and the slide stop shaft, as
Jack said. That's the correct way for the barrel to lock.

-----------------
John Caradimas
sv1cec@...



On Sep 21, 2009, at 20:45 , Jack F wrote:

>
>   This is an interesting letter, and all I can say about it is that
>  it shows how pervasive is the mistaken theory that the link is what
>  holds up the barrel while in battery.  In battery the barrel should
>  rest on the feet, evenly supported by the latch shaft.  The link is
>  only supposed to do two things.  First, it lifts the barrel so that
>  it can slide up on the latch shaft in battery.  Second, it pulls the
>  barrel down against the frame when the breech is open to minimize
>  loading failures.
>
>  Various Link lengths are available, but they are to adjust the pull
>  down when loading, not to adjust the height of the barrel in battery.
>  If the latter was the case, why should the barrel feet be fitted at
>  all?  Nothing but the link would matter, and it would not even need
>  feet.  Surely that should give you some pause for thought.
>
>  While the 1911 is such a great design it may very well work the way
>  you describe, it gives away the best part of a great design which
>  controls the depth of insertion into the top locking lugs and also
>  furnishes a stable three point support of the barrel for the best
>  accuracy and minimum rotation of the barrel by bullet torque.
>    Regards, Jack F
>                  =============================
>     Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
>               <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas
>
>
> Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:51:10 AM, you wrote:
>
> a> TRB
> a> If I may, Ill explain myself little more in depth. Having this
> piece of steel for 10 plus years, I have ran approx. 30,000+ rounds
> through her. And shes been in every climate and place where ever
> a> I take my gun. Except Iraq and Afgan of course. Now about the
> link, I took my Gold Cup to my well trusted gunsmith and asked for a
> tune up since the work that was last done was just after the
> a> purchase about 14 years ago. I told him about the mods I
> performed under watchful experienced eyes and he rogered up with
> theres no tue up nessesary.
> a> Now, he pointed out about the slight looseness at the breach. We
> broke her down and he knew exactly what was wrong. We measured the
> link and you can tell I have abused this soul saver to much. The
> a> measurements came started with the original link from Colt, .281,
> the edges were somewhat round and smooth. We reviewed shop books,
> found the sizes, double checke our info, put her back together,
> a> did a firing pin/ primer indent test and were sitting center.
> a>  A slight bounce like this "could", "will", or "will not" add an
> inch or 2 to your group. So taking that chance the option was
> offered to only go to a #4 link, .283 and I took it. After the
> a> install ran some rubbing test and she fit snug. Ran another
> firing pin/ primer tent test and the impact was .021 inches off
> center. If curious, I just competed in a local man on man steel shoot
> a> here in Las Vegas, running well over 200+ rounds and not a single
> problem.
>
> a> Im sorry to bore everyone with my rambling, but I though I should
> lay out more of the details. And thank you for putting up with me..
>
> a> Be safe,
> a> MarSOC W
>
> a> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "TRB" <TRB@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I can't agree with your second suggestion.  Putting a longer link
>>> in a 1911 without refitting the barrel, can, if the link ends up
>>> too long, cause any or all of the following:
>>> 1: Link failure
>>> 2: Slide stop failure
>>> 3: Lower barrel locking lug failure
>>> 4: Impaction of the upper lugs and
>>> 5: Subsequent peening of the upper barrel locking lugs and/or
>>> their matching slots in the slide.
>>>
>>> Manufacturing tolerances dictate that most all factory assembled
>>> 1911s have completely wrong lower lug geometry, and trying to
>>> crutch that by fiddling with the link is only going to compromise
>>> the
>>> reliability and longevity of the weapon.
>>>
>>> -TRB
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: andreww
>>>  To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
>>>  Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:45 PM
>>>  Subject: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup
>>>
>>>
>>>    Tim
>>>  I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not
>>> read all of the replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few
>>> things I do know that will help improve function as well as
>>> accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel bushing, (2) with the
>>> slide forward in a forward locked position press down on the
>>> throat (chamber area) of the barrel. If you get any play and I mean
>>> any, it would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your
>>> current barrel link.
>>>
>>>  The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of
>>> the box shoot a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the
>>> mentioned above, tightened the slide to the frame and did a nice
>>> trigger job while I was at it and tightene my group down to 3-4
>>> inches.
>>>
>>>  Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.
>>>
>>>  MarSOC Wick
>>>
>>>  --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as
>>>> though it
>>>> starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or
>>>> so, and
>>>> gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out
>>>> dead on
>>>> eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A
>>>> routine field
>>>> stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is
>>>> cleaned, it
>>>> will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out
>>>> to the
>>>> left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000
>>>> rounds
>>>> though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting
>>>> guns that
>>>> frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>> -Tim
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Brought to you, by the:
>
> M-1911 Pistols Organization
> http://www.m1911.org
>
> To unsubscribe: Send an e-mail to:
>
> M-1911-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Be sure you send the e-mail using the same address
> as the one you subscribed from.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

This is an interesting letter, and all I can say about it is that
   it shows how pervasive is the mistaken theory that the link is what
   holds up the barrel while in battery.  In battery the barrel should
   rest on the feet, evenly supported by the latch shaft.  The link is
   only supposed to do two things.  First, it lifts the barrel so that
   it can slide up on the latch shaft in battery.  Second, it pulls the
   barrel down against the frame when the breech is open to minimize
   loading failures.

   Various Link lengths are available, but they are to adjust the pull
   down when loading, not to adjust the height of the barrel in battery.
   If the latter was the case, why should the barrel feet be fitted at
   all?  Nothing but the link would matter, and it would not even need
   feet.  Surely that should give you some pause for thought.

   While the 1911 is such a great design it may very well work the way
   you describe, it gives away the best part of a great design which
   controls the depth of insertion into the top locking lugs and also
   furnishes a stable three point support of the barrel for the best
   accuracy and minimum rotation of the barrel by bullet torque.
     Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:51:10 AM, you wrote:

a> TRB
a> If I may, Ill explain myself little more in depth. Having this piece of steel
for 10 plus years, I have ran approx. 30,000+ rounds through her. And shes been
in every climate and place where ever
a> I take my gun. Except Iraq and Afgan of course. Now about the link, I took my
Gold Cup to my well trusted gunsmith and asked for a tune up since the work that
was last done was just after the
a> purchase about 14 years ago. I told him about the mods I performed under
watchful experienced eyes and he rogered up with theres no tue up nessesary.
a> Now, he pointed out about the slight looseness at the breach. We broke her
down and he knew exactly what was wrong. We measured the link and you can tell I
have abused this soul saver to much. The
a> measurements came started with the original link from Colt, .281, the edges
were somewhat round and smooth. We reviewed shop books, found the sizes, double
checke our info, put her back together,
a> did a firing pin/ primer indent test and were sitting center.
a>  A slight bounce like this "could", "will", or "will not" add an inch or 2 to
your group. So taking that chance the option was offered to only go to a #4
link, .283 and I took it. After the
a> install ran some rubbing test and she fit snug. Ran another firing pin/
primer tent test and the impact was .021 inches off center. If curious, I just
competed in a local man on man steel shoot
a> here in Las Vegas, running well over 200+ rounds and not a single problem.

a> Im sorry to bore everyone with my rambling, but I though I should lay out
more of the details. And thank you for putting up with me..

a> Be safe,
a> MarSOC W

a> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "TRB" <TRB@...> wrote:
>>
>> I can't agree with your second suggestion.  Putting a longer link in a 1911
without refitting the barrel, can, if the link ends up too long, cause any or
all of the following:
>> 1: Link failure
>> 2: Slide stop failure
>> 3: Lower barrel locking lug failure
>> 4: Impaction of the upper lugs and
>> 5: Subsequent peening of the upper barrel locking lugs and/or their matching
slots in the slide.
>>
>> Manufacturing tolerances dictate that most all factory assembled 1911s have
completely wrong lower lug geometry, and trying to crutch that by fiddling with
the link is only going to compromise the
>> reliability and longevity of the weapon.
>>
>> -TRB
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: andreww
>>   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
>>   Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:45 PM
>>   Subject: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup
>>
>>
>>     Tim
>>   I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not read all of
the replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few things I do know that will
help improve function as well as
>> accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel bushing, (2) with the slide
forward in a forward locked position press down on the throat (chamber area) of
the barrel. If you get any play and I mean
>> any, it would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your current
barrel link.
>>
>>   The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of the box
shoot a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the mentioned above,
tightened the slide to the frame and did a nice
>> trigger job while I was at it and tightene my group down to 3-4 inches.
>>
>>   Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.
>>
>>   MarSOC Wick
>>
>>   --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@> wrote:
>>   >
>>   > I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as though it
>>   > starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or so, and
>>   > gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out dead on
>>   > eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A routine
field
>>   > stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is cleaned,
it
>>   > will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out to the
>>   > left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000 rounds
>>   > though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting guns that
>>   > frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
>>   >
>>   > Any ideas?
>>   >
>>   > -Tim

TRB
If I may, Ill explain myself little more in depth. Having this piece of steel
for 10 plus years, I have ran approx. 30,000+ rounds through her. And shes been
in every climate and place where ever I take my gun. Except Iraq and Afgan of
course. Now about the link, I took my Gold Cup to my well trusted gunsmith and
asked for a tune up since the work that was last done was just after the
purchase about 14 years ago. I told him about the mods I performed under
watchful experienced eyes and he rogered up with theres no tue up nessesary.
Now, he pointed out about the slight looseness at the breach. We broke her down
and he knew exactly what was wrong. We measured the link and you can tell I have
abused this soul saver to much. The measurements came started with the original
link from Colt, .281, the edges were somewhat round and smooth. We reviewed shop
books, found the sizes, double checke our info, put her back together, did a
firing pin/ primer indent test and were sitting center.
  A slight bounce like this "could", "will", or "will not" add an inch or 2 to
your group. So taking that chance the option was offered to only go to a #4
link, .283 and I took it. After the install ran some rubbing test and she fit
snug. Ran another firing pin/ primer tent test and the impact was .021 inches
off center. If curious, I just competed in a local man on man steel shoot here
in Las Vegas, running well over 200+ rounds and not a single problem.

Im sorry to bore everyone with my rambling, but I though I should lay out more
of the details. And thank you for putting up with me..

Be safe,
MarSOC W

--- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "TRB" <TRB@...> wrote:
>
> I can't agree with your second suggestion.  Putting a longer link in a 1911
without refitting the barrel, can, if the link ends up too long, cause any or
all of the following:
> 1: Link failure
> 2: Slide stop failure
> 3: Lower barrel locking lug failure
> 4: Impaction of the upper lugs and
> 5: Subsequent peening of the upper barrel locking lugs and/or their matching
slots in the slide.
>
> Manufacturing tolerances dictate that most all factory assembled 1911s have
completely wrong lower lug geometry, and trying to crutch that by fiddling with
the link is only going to compromise the reliability and longevity of the
weapon.
>
> -TRB
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: andreww
>   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:45 PM
>   Subject: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup
>
>
>     Tim
>   I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not read all of
the replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few things I do know that will
help improve function as well as accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel
bushing, (2) with the slide forward in a forward locked position press down on
the throat (chamber area) of the barrel. If you get any play and I mean any, it
would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your current barrel link.
>
>   The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of the box
shoot a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the mentioned above,
tightened the slide to the frame and did a nice trigger job while I was at it
and tightene my group down to 3-4 inches.
>
>   Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.
>
>   MarSOC Wick
>
>   --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@> wrote:
>   >
>   > I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as though it
>   > starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or so, and
>   > gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out dead on
>   > eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A routine
field
>   > stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is cleaned,
it
>   > will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out to the
>   > left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000 rounds
>   > though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting guns that
>   > frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
>   >
>   > Any ideas?
>   >
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=121893/grpspId=1705069100/msgId=
>   > 20836/stime=1210204845/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848607/nc3=5349281>
>   >
>   > -Tim
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I can't agree with your second suggestion.  Putting a longer link in a 1911
without refitting the barrel, can, if the link ends up too long, cause any or
all of the following:
1: Link failure
2: Slide stop failure
3: Lower barrel locking lug failure
4: Impaction of the upper lugs and
5: Subsequent peening of the upper barrel locking lugs and/or their matching
slots in the slide.

Manufacturing tolerances dictate that most all factory assembled 1911s have
completely wrong lower lug geometry, and trying to crutch that by fiddling with
the link is only going to compromise the reliability and longevity of the
weapon.

-TRB

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: andreww
   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:45 PM
   Subject: [M-1911] Re: Problems with a Colt Gold Cup


     Tim
   I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not read all of the
replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few things I do know that will
help improve function as well as accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel
bushing, (2) with the slide forward in a forward locked position press down on
the throat (chamber area) of the barrel. If you get any play and I mean any, it
would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your current barrel link.

   The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of the box shoot
a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the mentioned above, tightened
the slide to the frame and did a nice trigger job while I was at it and tightene
my group down to 3-4 inches.

   Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.

   MarSOC Wick

   --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@...> wrote:
   >
   > I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as though it
   > starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or so, and
   > gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out dead on
   > eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A routine field
   > stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is cleaned, it
   > will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out to the
   > left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000 rounds
   > though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting guns that
   > frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
   >
   > Any ideas?
   > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=121893/grpspId=1705069100/msgId=
   > 20836/stime=1210204845/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848607/nc3=5349281>
   >
   > -Tim
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have several pages written on the 1911 covering these subjects.
  Click on the link below my signature line.

  You are welcome to read them and perhaps improve your understanding
  of how the pistol operates properly and when it operates improperly.
  Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Sunday, September 20, 2009, 9:45:00 PM, you wrote:

a> Tim
a> I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not read all of the
replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few things I do know that will
help improve function as well as
a> accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel bushing, (2) with the slide
forward in a forward locked position  press down on the throat (chamber area) of
the barrel. If you get any play and I mean
a> any, it would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your current
barrel link.

a> The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of the box shoot
a horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the mentioned above, tightened
the slide to the frame and did a nice
a> trigger job while I was at it and tightene my group down to 3-4 inches.

a> Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.

a> MarSOC Wick



a> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@...> wrote:
>>
>> I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as though it
>> starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or so, and
>> gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out dead on
>> eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A routine field
>> stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is cleaned, it
>> will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out to the
>> left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000 rounds
>> though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting guns that
>> frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=121893/grpspId=1705069100/msgId=
>> 20836/stime=1210204845/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848607/nc3=5349281>
>>
>> -Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>

Tim
I just joined here and noticed gold cup problem. No I did not read all of the
replys and I am a Gold Cup Owner of 14 years. Few things I do know that will
help improve function as well as accuracy, is get a (1) full cylender barrel
bushing, (2) with the slide forward in a forward locked position  press down on
the throat (chamber area) of the barrel. If you get any play and I mean any, it
would be suggested that you get a 1 size bigger then your current barrel link.

The reason I know this is because I remember my new 1911 out of the box shoot a
horrorable 7 inch group at 25 yds. I prformed the mentioned above, tightened the
slide to the frame and did a nice trigger job while I was at it and tightene my
group down to 3-4 inches.

Hope this all helps and if youve done this, cool... be safe.

MarSOC Wick



--- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rahto" <tim@...> wrote:
>
> I've got a Colt Gold Cup with a bit of a problem. It seems as though it
> starts to lose its point of impact after about 50 - 75 rounds or so, and
> gradually starts to shoot more to the left. Groups that start out dead on
> eventually migrate out to the edge of the 8 ring at 25 feet. A routine field
> stripping doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. After it is cleaned, it
> will again shoot dead on for a while and then begin to creep out to the
> left. The gun was bought new in 2005, and probably has about 1000 rounds
> though it. It should be a lot more, but I don't enjoy shooting guns that
> frustrate the hell out of me like this one does.
>
> Any ideas?
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=121893/grpspId=1705069100/msgId=
> 20836/stime=1210204845/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848607/nc3=5349281>
>
> -Tim
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

http://www.coltsmfg.com/

  Regards,
David Hoobler
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." -- Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's why I bought those and was able to resell
them quickly. They were excellent examples of fine
machine work, and even had the old Colt bluing that
has disappeared since WW2.

Most gun folks do not know about the bluing change.
We have almost universally used the hot tank method
since WW2 because it gives better protection.

Old Colts were heat blued with hot salts.  Beautiful
Peacock blue color but not as protective.

Incidentally, I have a hard red oak magazine well filler
to drive in the mag well when I put a 1911 in a vise.
The mag well is easily crushed, and that may be what
happened to yours before you got it.. Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Thursday, March 26, 2009, 12:58:22 AM, you wrote:

T> Yeah, they are pretty solid, though the later ones show that the
T> Argentinians weren't much for keeping their toolheads sharp.  The
T> custom I built on mine had some pretty serious toolmarks on the
T> feedramp and I had to open up the magazine well to get empties to
T> drop properly.  Still, the pin holes and slide rails were in the
T> right places, and that's what matters.

T> -TRB


T> The last Argentine Systemas I found cost me $400 bucks
T> each when I found a pair that looked like new manufacture,
T> using old numbered barrels stored for decades.
T> t calibrated
T> They dug out all numbered parts left over and made new
T> Frames and slides to fit them. I eventually sold these
T> for $500 each to folks who wanted a "new" Argentine pistol,
T> equivalent to a new mil spec 1911a1.

T> Those were excellent guns, true 1911A1s, and totally
T> compatible with every other Colt 1911A1 because they
T> were made on Colt calibrated machinery, which is more
T> than can be said for the almost clones made to metric
T> dimensions. Gunsmiths know the difference when they
T> try to fit replacement or upgraded parts.
T> Regards, Jack F
T> =============================
T> Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
T> <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas





T> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, they are pretty solid, though the later ones show that the Argentinians
weren't much for keeping their toolheads sharp.  The custom I built on mine had
some pretty serious toolmarks on the feedramp and I had to open up the magazine
well to get empties to drop properly.  Still, the pin holes and slide rails were
in the right places, and that's what matters.

-TRB


The last Argentine Systemas I found cost me $400 bucks
each when I found a pair that looked like new manufacture,
using old numbered barrels stored for decades.
t calibrated
They dug out all numbered parts left over and made new
Frames and slides to fit them. I eventually sold these
for $500 each to folks who wanted a "new" Argentine pistol,
equivalent to a new mil spec 1911a1.

Those were excellent guns, true 1911A1s, and totally
compatible with every other Colt 1911A1 because they
were made on Colt calibrated machinery, which is more
than can be said for the almost clones made to metric
dimensions. Gunsmiths know the difference when they
try to fit replacement or upgraded parts.
Regards, Jack F
=============================
Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
<http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The last Argentine Systemas I found cost me $400 bucks
each when I found a pair that looked like new manufacture,
using old numbered barrels stored for decades.
                                                                                                                                      
t calibrated
They dug out all numbered parts left over and made new
Frames and slides to fit them.  I eventually sold these
for $500 each to folks who wanted a "new" Argentine pistol,
equivalent to a new mil spec 1911a1.

Those were excellent guns, true 1911A1s, and totally
compatible with every other Colt 1911A1 because they
were made on Colt calibrated machinery, which is more
than can be said for the almost clones made to metric
dimensions.   Gunsmiths know the difference when they
try to fit replacement or upgraded parts.
Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 4:15:06 PM, you wrote:

T> You used to be able to buy those all day for $260.  Before that it was $200.

T> -TRB

T>   ----- Original Message -----
T>   From: David Hoobler
T>   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
T>   Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 4:18 PM
T>   Subject: Re: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911

I found them on the net in very good condition, with matching numbers on frame,
slide and barrel for $300.  I can get it on my C&R license for $12 shipping.

  Regards,
David Hoobler
"The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931





________________________________
From: TRB <TRB@...>
To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:15:06 PM
Subject: Re: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911


You used to be able to buy those all day for $260.  Before that it was $200.

-TRB

----- Original Message -----
From: David Hoobler
To: M-1911@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very true---things have just gone nuts in the last few months. My dealer is
paying $25 (his cost) for Federal American Eagle 45acps!!!


--- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, "TRB" <TRB@...> wrote:
>
> You used to be able to buy those all day for $260.  Before that it was $200.
>
> -TRB
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: David Hoobler
>   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 4:18 PM
>   Subject: Re: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

You used to be able to buy those all day for $260.  Before that it was $200.

-TRB

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: David Hoobler
   To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 4:18 PM
   Subject: Re: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Korean model?  That's a good one.  I'll try that myself on a few
old guns that aren't appreciated.<G>   Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Sunday, March 22, 2009, 2:44:34 PM, you wrote:

DH> I went back to the gun show today armed with my blue book of gun values.  I
was prepared to offer the guy blue book price for a 90 percent gun, which is
$450.  The gun is probably better than the
DH> 70 percent I said earlier, but it is not 90 percent.

DH> The dealer saw me comparing the markings on the gun to the description in my
blue book.  He volunteered that the price was $675.  Yesterday it was $550.  He
claimed that it was worth more because
DH> it was a "Korean" model with a serial number in the 68,000 range.  He asked
if I was interested.  I told him no.

DH>  Regards,
DH> David Hoobler
DH> "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931

I think that this was a good decision.

John Caradimas




On Mar 22, 2009, at 22:44 , David Hoobler wrote:

> I went back to the gun show today armed with my blue book of gun
> values.  I was prepared to offer the guy blue book price for a 90
> percent gun, which is $450.  The gun is probably better than the 70
> percent I said earlier, but it is not 90 percent.
>
> The dealer saw me comparing the markings on the gun to the
> description in my blue book.  He volunteered that the price was
> $675.  Yesterday it was $550.  He claimed that it was worth more
> because it was a "Korean" model with a serial number in the 68,000
> range.  He asked if I was interested.  I told him no.
>
> Regards,
> David Hoobler
> "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary
> of Commerce.- June 9, 1931
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Phillip White <philwhite777@...>
> To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:33:47 PM
> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911
>
>
>
> Geez that was way to high. I'm glad you passed on both. Para is
> kinda funny because they have 1911's at $600 and then jump to almost
> a $1000. Darned if I can figure out the justification for that price
> range.
>
> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for the reply.  I was at a gun show.  I found this gun on
>> a table as a private sale, which is legal here in Texas.  The price
>> was $550.  I did not have any idea what the gun was worth.  On the
>> same table was a Para Ordinance for over $800, which struck me as
>> high.  I suspect the seller was looking for someone willing to pay
>> a premium to avoid the 4473.  I passed.
>>
>> Since I did not examine the gun in detail, I don't really know
>> about the mechanical condition.  Judging from the external
>> condition, I suspect it was well used.  Another thing that put me
>> off was the white out on the sights.  It looked like a previous
>> owner might have messed with the internals.
>>
>> Regards,
>> David Hoobler
>> "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary
>> of Commerce.- June 9, 1931
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________ _________ _________ __
>> From: Phillip White <philwhite777@ ...>
>> To: M-1911@yahoogroups. com
>> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 2:05:53 PM
>> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911
>>
>>
>> Just my opinion but I'd say at 70% the max would be $300 and that's
>> being fairly generous. 70% to me indicates not only wear but a need
>> for some replacement parts.
>>
>> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Can anyone tell me a fair price for an Argentine 1911.  It is
>>> about 70%"
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Brought to you, by the:
>
> M-1911 Pistols Organization
> http://www.m1911.org
>
> To unsubscribe: Send an e-mail to:
>
> M-1911-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Be sure you send the e-mail using the same address
> as the one you subscribed from.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Yep, whatever the market will bear.That is one crazy price. It's Korean so what!


--- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@...> wrote:
>
> I went back to the gun show today armed with my blue book of gun values.  I
was prepared to offer the guy blue book price for a 90 percent gun, which is
$450.  The gun is probably better than the 70 percent I said earlier, but it is
not 90 percent.
>
> The dealer saw me comparing the markings on the gun to the description in my
blue book.  He volunteered that the price was $675.  Yesterday it was $550.  He
claimed that it was worth more because it was a "Korean" model with a serial
number in the 68,000 range.  He asked if I was interested.  I told him no.
>
>  Regards,
> David Hoobler
> "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Phillip White <philwhite777@...>
> To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:33:47 PM
> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911
>
>
>
> Geez that was way to high. I'm glad you passed on both. Para is kinda funny
because they have 1911's at $600 and then jump to almost a $1000. Darned if I
can figure out the justification for that price range.
>
> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for the reply.  I was at a gun show.  I found this gun on a table
as a private sale, which is legal here in Texas.  The price was $550.  I did not
have any idea what the gun was worth.  On the same table was a Para Ordinance
for over $800, which struck me as high.  I suspect the seller was looking for
someone willing to pay a premium to avoid the 4473.  I passed.
> >
> > Since I did not examine the gun in detail, I don't really know about the
mechanical condition.  Judging from the external condition, I suspect it was
well used.  Another thing that put me off was the white out on the sights.  It
looked like a previous owner might have messed with the internals.
> >
> >  Regards,
> > David Hoobler
> > "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Phillip White <philwhite777@ ...>
> > To: M-1911@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 2:05:53 PM
> > Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911
> >
> >
> > Just my opinion but I'd say at 70% the max would be $300 and that's being
fairly generous. 70% to me indicates not only wear but a need for some
replacement parts.
> >
> > --- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me a fair price for an Argentine 1911.  It is about 70%"
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I went back to the gun show today armed with my blue book of gun values.  I was
prepared to offer the guy blue book price for a 90 percent gun, which is $450. 
The gun is probably better than the 70 percent I said earlier, but it is not 90
percent.

The dealer saw me comparing the markings on the gun to the description in my
blue book.  He volunteered that the price was $675.  Yesterday it was $550.  He
claimed that it was worth more because it was a "Korean" model with a serial
number in the 68,000 range.  He asked if I was interested.  I told him no.

  Regards,
David Hoobler
"The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931





________________________________
From: Phillip White <philwhite777@...>
To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:33:47 PM
Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911



Geez that was way to high. I'm glad you passed on both. Para is kinda funny
because they have 1911's at $600 and then jump to almost a $1000. Darned if I
can figure out the justification for that price range.

--- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the reply.  I was at a gun show.  I found this gun on a table as
a private sale, which is legal here in Texas.  The price was $550.  I did not
have any idea what the gun was worth.  On the same table was a Para Ordinance
for over $800, which struck me as high.  I suspect the seller was looking for
someone willing to pay a premium to avoid the 4473.  I passed.
>
> Since I did not examine the gun in detail, I don't really know about the
mechanical condition.  Judging from the external condition, I suspect it was
well used.  Another thing that put me off was the white out on the sights.  It
looked like a previous owner might have messed with the internals.
>
>  Regards,
> David Hoobler
> "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Phillip White <philwhite777@ ...>
> To: M-1911@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 2:05:53 PM
> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911
>
>
> Just my opinion but I'd say at 70% the max would be $300 and that's being
fairly generous. 70% to me indicates not only wear but a need for some
replacement parts.
>
> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone tell me a fair price for an Argentine 1911.  It is about 70%"
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Geez that was way to high. I'm glad you passed on both. Para is kinda funny
because they have 1911's at $600 and then jump to almost a $1000. Darned if I
can figure out the justification for that price range.



--- In M-1911@yahoogroups.com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the reply.  I was at a gun show.  I found this gun on a table as
a private sale, which is legal here in Texas.  The price was $550.  I did not
have any idea what the gun was worth.  On the same table was a Para Ordinance
for over $800, which struck me as high.  I suspect the seller was looking for
someone willing to pay a premium to avoid the 4473.  I passed.
>
> Since I did not examine the gun in detail, I don't really know about the
mechanical condition.  Judging from the external condition, I suspect it was
well used.  Another thing that put me off was the white out on the sights.  It
looked like a previous owner might have messed with the internals.
>
>  Regards,
> David Hoobler
> "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Phillip White <philwhite777@...>
> To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 2:05:53 PM
> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911
>
>
> Just my opinion but I'd say at 70% the max would be $300 and that's being
fairly generous. 70% to me indicates not only wear but a need for some
replacement parts.
>
> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone tell me a fair price for an Argentine 1911.  It is about 70%"
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

David, as you possibly already know, the Argentine is essentially
  a Colt, built on Colt machinery to Colt specs, either by Colt
  personnel while training Argentine workers or after Colt left
  Argentina and turned the equipment over to them.  If it was made
  before 1927 when Colt left Argentina it is worth slightly more.

  It should command nearly the same price as an old well used Colt
  1911A1.  If it is operable and not rusty it is worth at least
  $400, regardless of the finish.  If it is a pre 1927 early model
  marked "Colt" it could be worth more.    Regards, Jack F
                   =============================
      Are only the Police entitled to defend themselves with a handgun?
                <http://www.gunsmith.fuselier.com> East Texas


Saturday, March 21, 2009, 3:18:12 PM, you wrote:

DH> Thank you for the reply.  I was at a gun show.  I found this gun on a table
as a private sale, which is legal here in Texas.  The price was $550.  I did not
have any idea what the gun was worth.
DH> On the same table was a Para Ordinance for over $800, which struck me as
high.  I suspect the seller was looking for someone willing to pay a premium to
avoid the 4473.  I passed.

DH> Since I did not examine the gun in detail, I don't really know about the
mechanical condition.  Judging from the external condition, I suspect it was
well used.  Another thing that put me off was
DH> the white out on the sights.  It looked like a previous owner might have
messed with the internals.

DH>  Regards,
DH> David Hoobler
DH> "The depression has ended." - Dr. Julius Klein, Assistant Secretary of
Commerce.- June 9, 1931





DH> ________________________________
DH> From: Phillip White <philwhite777@...>
DH> To: M-1911@yahoogroups.com
DH> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 2:05:53 PM
DH> Subject: [M-1911] Re: Argentine 1911


DH> Just my opinion but I'd say at 70% the max would be $300 and that's being
fairly generous. 70% to me indicates not only wear but a need for some
replacement parts.

DH> --- In M-1911@yahoogroups. com, David Hoobler <dhoobler76@ ...> wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone tell me a fair price for an Argentine 1911.  It is about 70%"
>>
>> Thanks,
>> David
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>







DH> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]