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Measuring Trail   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #18641 of 25020 |
Re: Measuring Trail

--- In KOG@yahoogroups.com, "Kogswell Cycles" <kogswellcycles@>
> wrote:
> >
> > At 145, I think you should be using no more than a 30 in
> > the back and about a 28 in front, unloaded or a 30 in front
> > loaded. And the 28 will naturally need to be pumped
> > up to above 80psi. And the 30 could be used at right
> > around 80. And since tires that are inflated to higher
> > pressures have less pneumatic trail, then 41 is right
> > for -high-side- trail.


OK. I just consulted my copy of Bicycle Quarterly, Volume 5 Number 3. Quoting
from the
article "How To Design a Well-Handling Bicycle" on page 45:

+++
MODERATE LOAD, MEDIUM TIRES

Bike #4, RH No.148 51 Randonneuse (1951).
700Cx30mm (dia.:690mm). f=10.9mm.
[my note, Bike #4 has 39mm trail]

"...The Singer is close to perfect for riding with a moderately loaded handlebar
bag. It
rides straight with little concentration, corners with ease and precision, and
climbs without
excessive wheel flop. It is stable at speeds of 80km/h (50mph) and more."

"However this geometry relies on the pneumatic trail of relatively wide tires
for its stability.
__With 30mm tires at 5.2 bar (75psi)__[emphasis mine], the Singer is close to
perfect,
whereas with 21mm tires at 8.3bar (120psi), it lacks directional stability."

MODERATE LOAD, WIDE TIRES

Bike #5. RH 2 52 Randonneuse (1952). Tires:
650Bx39mm (dia.: 669mm). f=7.2mm.
[my note, Bike #5 hs 26mm trail]

"The wider tires of the 650B bike (No. 5) add significant pneumatic trail, so
the geometric
trail hs ben reduced to 26mm. The bike's handling is very similar to that of
the 700C
Randonneur bike (No. 4), with perhaps a slightly lighter steering and more
low-speed
stability due to its decreased wheel flop factor. Despite its low geometric
trail, this bike is
very stable at high speeds of 80km/h (50 mph) and more."

+++


So, Matthew recommending 700x30 tires at 75-80psi for a ~40mm trail bike does
agree
with what Jan wrote.

What I'm taking away from this is that I should either switch to a narrower 30mm
tire @
75psi on my bike, or swap the 40mm trail fork for the 30mm version, and keep the
tires
as is. Unfortunately Jan doesn't report on the tire pressure used for Bike #5
above, but
since it's a 650B tire I think we can safely assume that they're lower.

-Jim G







Tue May 20, 2008 3:20 am

jim.gourgoutis
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Message #18641 of 25020 |
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So I've been riding my 700C P/R and wondering to myself "Ummm, so this is low trail, what's the big deal?" This morning I decided to try to measure what the...
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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May 19, 2008
5:39 pm

I would guess that side b of that triangle would be smaller if you were using 650B wheels, with tires being the same. Try moving the scale up the vertical...
Robert Orr
robertorrsan...
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May 19, 2008
5:49 pm

... were using 650B wheels, with tires being the same. Try moving the scale up the vertical string to the place where a 650B tire would contact the floor, and...
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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May 19, 2008
5:52 pm

... That is true (smaller wheels with the same wheel offset give you decreased trail), but this is a bike built for 700C wheels. Jim -- was the counter that...
alex wetmore
alexphredorg
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May 19, 2008
5:54 pm

... Alex, that's not a counter, that's actually the granite tile on my kitchen floor. You are correct that the floor may not be exactly level, and I should...
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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May 19, 2008
6:05 pm

... How do your tires compare with other bikes? The 58 fork should give you about 41mm of trail. With that fork you'd want to use what I think of as fairly...
Kogswell Cycles
kogswellreader
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May 19, 2008
6:27 pm

... My P/R has 700x35mm Panaracer Paselas inflated to about 50psi. I'm 145lbs for what that's worth. ... Right. ... Why is that? Everything else I've...
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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May 19, 2008
7:17 pm

... At 145, I think you should be using no more than a 30 in the back and about a 28 in front, unloaded or a 30 in front loaded. And the 28 will naturally...
Kogswell Cycles
kogswellreader
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May 19, 2008
9:46 pm

... Why are you recommending such high tire pressures? Since low trail bikes are less stable you typically ride them with a wider tire to add pneumatic trail...
alex wetmore
alexphredorg
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May 19, 2008
9:58 pm

... I think that trail is a dependent factor. You set all the variables and then let the trail fall where it may. Hence the choice of fork offsets. ... I do...
Kogswell Cycles
kogswellreader
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May 19, 2008
10:14 pm

... Jan Heine and Mark Vande Kamp don't weigh much more. I think they both weigh 155lbs. Neither of them are riding skinny 650B tires. alex...
alex wetmore
alexphredorg
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May 19, 2008
10:23 pm

... Isn't Jan riding 32mm Grand Bois 650Bs?...
Steve Palincsar
palincss
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May 19, 2008
10:48 pm

... His Kogswell P/R has the Trim Lines on it (or did last time I saw it). His most ridden bike at the moment is 700C. Mark is running Trim Lines on his...
alex wetmore
alexphredorg
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May 19, 2008
10:53 pm

... Just to throw another contrary voice into the mix, I weigh around 195, and for the last 3 days I've been riding 30mm Grand Bois Cypres tires and loving the...
Adam Alpern
adam_alpern
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May 19, 2008
11:32 pm

... Jan has a 700C P/R. Have him put a 30 on the back and a 28 on the front with the 58 fork and then ride it and tell me what you think. I'm getting that...
Kogswell Cycles
kogswellreader
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May 20, 2008
12:07 am

... I find this a curious statement when all the trail figures I've seen for this bike have been with 36mm wide tires or greater, e.g.: "Here's the geometry...
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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May 20, 2008
12:42 am

... OK. I just consulted my copy of Bicycle Quarterly, Volume 5 Number 3. Quoting from the article "How To Design a Well-Handling Bicycle" on page 45: +++ ...
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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May 20, 2008
3:20 am

An update, after testing the bike with 700x30 tires @ 75psi: http://sfcyclotouring.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-low-trail-experimenting.html -Jim G ... 3....
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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Jun 2, 2008
8:28 pm

By my careful figgerin, there are 4 variables that contribute to your trail measurement. 1. Head Angle 2. Fork Rake 3. Wheel Diameter 4. Measurement Error ...
Erik
erik.emstad
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May 19, 2008
7:07 pm

... diameter ... Right. That's assuming that the published specs are accurate. I know of at least one measurement on the 59x700 blueprint that seems ...
Jim Gourgoutis
jim.gourgoutis
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May 19, 2008
7:15 pm

... Probably the biggest thing to notice about low trail is what you don't notice: specifically, the feeling of weight in a loaded handlebar bag wanting to...
Steve Palincsar
palincss
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May 19, 2008
7:20 pm

... I ride 36-40mm tires on bikes with 30,40,54,&61mm of trail with no problems. 45-52 psi. All with handlebar bags. I won't voluntarily ride anything...
rswatson@...
rswatson42
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May 20, 2008
4:08 pm
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