K.C.:

I will ask Rob if he tested any 185 Silvertips.  He tested a BUNCH of stuff, and
those may have been in the batch.

Historically, Silvertips in 9mm were terribly performers because they tended to
fragment upon impact.  I just don't know what they did in .45.  For certain -
the soft alloy picked up rifling well and they were the most accurate factory
ammo I every shot.

Bill Laughridge from Cylinder & Slide says that Officer's Models and similar
guns should run 165 grain .45 bullets for defense.  You get a little more speed
from the lighter bullet in the stubby barrels, which makes them perform better.

Just food for thought.

Chris / OZ
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com
   To: FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:20 AM
   Subject: [FBIDPA] Digest Number 597



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   ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   There are 5 messages in this issue.

   Topics in this digest:

         1. Re: SW IDPA Thoughts
              From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>
         2. Re: Nov. 29, 2003 MATCH
              From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>
         3. Re: Nov. 29, 2003 MATCH
              From: "casidores02" <casidores@...>
         4. Re: Bullet Tests
              From: "casidores02" <casidores@...>
         5. Re: Bullet Tests
              From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>


   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________

   Message: 1
      Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:47:17 -0000
      From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>
   Subject: Re: SW IDPA Thoughts

   --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
   Hope this jester of solidarity
   > will, if there is any ill will from the other clubs clear the air.
   =========
   That is GESTURE - not jester.  Geez do I need to proof my posts or
   what?  Hey what do you expect from one who keeps forgetting his ammo
   eh?

   Jerry



   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________

   Message: 2
      Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:20:09 -0000
      From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>
   Subject: Re: Nov. 29, 2003 MATCH

   --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
   > Gang:
   >
   > First, my thanx to all who showed up to shoot today.  The weather
   was great, no wind to speak of, and we were eating schnitzel by 1300.
   ============
   Yep seems with the additional bays and the match committee we can
   move things right along with the help of the shooters.


   >
   > For those of you who didn't make it -  you really missed a great
   one.  Jerry worked his cojones off creating some very challenging
   stages that were not conceived on the drawing boards at NASA, and the
   round count was SUPPOSED to have been 130 - but I think he lied to us
   about that, as I had to borrow bullets from Dave to finish the last
   stage.
   ===================
   I took two of Neals from the 22nd dust/wind storm match, so I can not
   take all the credit.  BTW Neal thanks.  I think those two stages I
   won. ;-)

   Oz come on now even though you beat me you still had to use a few
   extra rounds.  Folks if any is wondering or confused the round count
   (RC) that gets posted is IF you don't miss, makeup shoots, or clear a
   malfunction.

   I really can not say anything since I had to borrow rounds for all
   but the first two stages ;-((  I would love to say it was because of
   3.5hrs of sleep, but I have done it before with 4 hr of sleep ;-)
   Just dumb.


   >
   > We shot 8 stages, and they all ran very fast with no problems or
   complaints.  Troy and 'Niff showed early to help Jerry set up, and
   everyone helped with pasting, scoring, and tear down.
   ==============
   Again thanks to all for pitching in.  If it was left up to only a
   couple the match would have took much longer and not been enjoyable
   at all.


   >
   > If you will refer to our efficiently posted scores on the site,
   (thanx, Jerry!,) Mr. Elniff opened up a can of Whoopass on us today -
   and gave a FINE performance with his Combat Tupperware!  Admittedly,
   he used Neal's recipe for 9mm rimfire loads, as on one stage the
   brass was actually trickling across the back of his right hand, but I
   didn't have my chrony so we couldn't do anything more than call him
   NEal for the rest of the match.  ;-)  Congrats to him; his practice
   certainly showed today.  Troy, that sandbagging scumm, actually stole
   second place overall from a poor pauper!  Consistent and smooth with
   that HK, I must say.  Good show, Troy!
   ==============
   You know it is bad when Troy actually made a comment about that
   brass ;-)).  Now you know what I have been saying about Troy - he is
   a sneak.  Going to find a marker, cardboard and string I am and fix
   him right up with that sign I commented about.  ;-)


   > Best to all -
   >
   > Chris / OZ
   ==================
   Trurh be known I felt compelled not to beat Oz with ammo borrowed
   from him.  An now you know the rest of the story ;-))  No not really
   I got beat more or less fairly if you call being heckeled by all to
   include Dave ;-))  I got beat - beat- beat.  No biggie it was all
   fun. You all missed a great time.  Plan for the BuG and see you all
   there if not sooner.

   BTW if any needs to know what is and is not allowed in BuG (Backup
   Gun) the rule book is in our files section or you can go to
   WWW.IDPA.Com and check out the rulebk there.  Or just ask.

   Cool thing is if you want to shoot and don't have a BuG we will take
   your money and let you shoot a full size gun, though your scores wont
   count for any standings or TG points.  You will however have a great
   time.  Some folks, myself included always brings extra gear.  Don't
   count on me to have ammo though ;-))

   Jerry





   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________

   Message: 3
      Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:42:26 -0000
      From: "casidores02" <casidores@...>
   Subject: Re: Nov. 29, 2003 MATCH

   Great match yesterday!
   Elniff kicked butt big time!
   Thanks to Troy, Elniff, and Jerry...good job fellows!
   See ya
   K.C.



   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________

   Message: 4
      Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:46:37 -0000
      From: "casidores02" <casidores@...>
   Subject: Re: Bullet Tests

   Oz,
   does Rob have any results on the 185 gr Silvertip?
   Kinda dig it, especially in the Officers Model.
   See ya
   K.C.







   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________

   Message: 5
      Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 01:04:11 -0000
      From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>
   Subject: Re: Bullet Tests

   --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "casidores02" <casidores@h...> wrote:
   > Oz,
   > does Rob have any results on the 185 gr Silvertip?
   > Kinda dig it, especially in the Officers Model.
   > See ya
   > K.C.
   ==============
   Ammo and calibers I gotta jump in ;-)

   I always liked the ST in 9/40/and 45acp.  I know Oz is not fond of it
   but that is his choice ;-)

   I would think with the lower vel that the ST would be a good choice
   for SD in a CCW situation.  The 230 Ranger is doing very well also.
   The bullet to try I think would be the 165 Powerball from CORBON.  I
   think the ST would do well but maybe the CORBON might be a little
   better.  For more all around use I think the 230 Ranger.

   I always found the STs to be very accurate.  Bottom line really is to
   find what you and the gun can shoot well as long as it is a quality
   SD load.  Some are better (not by much and usally not worrying about)
   but the gun must run and put them where you need them.

   Sorry I butted in but like I said calibers and ammo....

   Good shooting BTW.  It had to be hell going first on hte swinger ;)
   Should have just shot the damn thing for all the badgering we all got
   before the timer went off.

   Later,

   Jerry

   Be interested in what you decide on and as to the why.



   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "casidores02" <casidores@h...> wrote:
> Oz,
> does Rob have any results on the 185 gr Silvertip?
> Kinda dig it, especially in the Officers Model.
> See ya
> K.C.
==============
Ammo and calibers I gotta jump in ;-)

I always liked the ST in 9/40/and 45acp.  I know Oz is not fond of it
but that is his choice ;-)

I would think with the lower vel that the ST would be a good choice
for SD in a CCW situation.  The 230 Ranger is doing very well also.
The bullet to try I think would be the 165 Powerball from CORBON.  I
think the ST would do well but maybe the CORBON might be a little
better.  For more all around use I think the 230 Ranger.

I always found the STs to be very accurate.  Bottom line really is to
find what you and the gun can shoot well as long as it is a quality
SD load.  Some are better (not by much and usally not worrying about)
but the gun must run and put them where you need them.

Sorry I butted in but like I said calibers and ammo....

Good shooting BTW.  It had to be hell going first on hte swinger ;)
Should have just shot the damn thing for all the badgering we all got
before the timer went off.

Later,

Jerry

Be interested in what you decide on and as to the why.

Oz,
does Rob have any results on the 185 gr Silvertip?
Kinda dig it, especially in the Officers Model.
See ya
K.C.

Great match yesterday!
Elniff kicked butt big time!
Thanks to Troy, Elniff, and Jerry...good job fellows!
See ya
K.C.

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
> Gang:
>
> First, my thanx to all who showed up to shoot today.  The weather
was great, no wind to speak of, and we were eating schnitzel by 1300.
============
Yep seems with the additional bays and the match committee we can
move things right along with the help of the shooters.


>
> For those of you who didn't make it -  you really missed a great
one.  Jerry worked his cojones off creating some very challenging
stages that were not conceived on the drawing boards at NASA, and the
round count was SUPPOSED to have been 130 - but I think he lied to us
about that, as I had to borrow bullets from Dave to finish the last
stage.
===================
I took two of Neals from the 22nd dust/wind storm match, so I can not
take all the credit.  BTW Neal thanks.  I think those two stages I
won. ;-)

Oz come on now even though you beat me you still had to use a few
extra rounds.  Folks if any is wondering or confused the round count
(RC) that gets posted is IF you don't miss, makeup shoots, or clear a
malfunction.

I really can not say anything since I had to borrow rounds for all
but the first two stages ;-((  I would love to say it was because of
3.5hrs of sleep, but I have done it before with 4 hr of sleep ;-)
Just dumb.


>
> We shot 8 stages, and they all ran very fast with no problems or
complaints.  Troy and 'Niff showed early to help Jerry set up, and
everyone helped with pasting, scoring, and tear down.
==============
Again thanks to all for pitching in.  If it was left up to only a
couple the match would have took much longer and not been enjoyable
at all.


>
> If you will refer to our efficiently posted scores on the site,
(thanx, Jerry!,) Mr. Elniff opened up a can of Whoopass on us today -
and gave a FINE performance with his Combat Tupperware!  Admittedly,
he used Neal's recipe for 9mm rimfire loads, as on one stage the
brass was actually trickling across the back of his right hand, but I
didn't have my chrony so we couldn't do anything more than call him
NEal for the rest of the match.  ;-)  Congrats to him; his practice
certainly showed today.  Troy, that sandbagging scumm, actually stole
second place overall from a poor pauper!  Consistent and smooth with
that HK, I must say.  Good show, Troy!
==============
You know it is bad when Troy actually made a comment about that
brass ;-)).  Now you know what I have been saying about Troy - he is
a sneak.  Going to find a marker, cardboard and string I am and fix
him right up with that sign I commented about.  ;-)


> Best to all -
>
> Chris / OZ
==================
Trurh be known I felt compelled not to beat Oz with ammo borrowed
from him.  An now you know the rest of the story ;-))  No not really
I got beat more or less fairly if you call being heckeled by all to
include Dave ;-))  I got beat - beat- beat.  No biggie it was all
fun. You all missed a great time.  Plan for the BuG and see you all
there if not sooner.

BTW if any needs to know what is and is not allowed in BuG (Backup
Gun) the rule book is in our files section or you can go to
WWW.IDPA.Com and check out the rulebk there.  Or just ask.

Cool thing is if you want to shoot and don't have a BuG we will take
your money and let you shoot a full size gun, though your scores wont
count for any standings or TG points.  You will however have a great
time.  Some folks, myself included always brings extra gear.  Don't
count on me to have ammo though ;-))

Jerry

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
Hope this jester of solidarity
> will, if there is any ill will from the other clubs clear the air.
=========
That is GESTURE - not jester.  Geez do I need to proof my posts or
what?  Hey what do you expect from one who keeps forgetting his ammo
eh?

Jerry

Gang:

First, my thanx to all who showed up to shoot today.  The weather was great, no
wind to speak of, and we were eating schnitzel by 1300.

For those of you who didn't make it -  you really missed a great one.  Jerry
worked his cojones off creating some very challenging stages that were not
conceived on the drawing boards at NASA, and the round count was SUPPOSED to
have been 130 - but I think he lied to us about that, as I had to borrow bullets
from Dave to finish the last stage.

We shot 8 stages, and they all ran very fast with no problems or complaints. 
Troy and 'Niff showed early to help Jerry set up, and everyone helped with
pasting, scoring, and tear down.

If you will refer to our efficiently posted scores on the site, (thanx, Jerry!,)
Mr. Elniff opened up a can of Whoopass on us today - and gave a FINE performance
with his Combat Tupperware!  Admittedly, he used Neal's recipe for 9mm rimfire
loads, as on one stage the brass was actually trickling across the back of his
right hand, but I didn't have my chrony so we couldn't do anything more than
call him NEal for the rest of the match.  ;-)  Congrats to him; his practice
certainly showed today.  Troy, that sandbagging scumm, actually stole second
place overall from a poor pauper!  Consistent and smooth with that HK, I must
say.  Good show, Troy!

Because of the low turnout and lack of an audience today, there was a
disturbance in The Force that some of the Jedi may have felt - someone shot an
antiquated design of a pistol that ran 100%, and put a majority of the bullets
where they needed to go.  Wonders never cease to amaze...

Lots of fun, and probably the best time I have had at a match in quite a while. 
Thank you, everyone, for making it such a good time.

We decided at the meeting after the match that we WILL hold a BuG match on
December 27.  Dust off those old J-frames and such and get out and shoot with
us!

Best to all -

Chris / OZ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oops in case any was wondering - as stated and can be viewed in the
database.

Jerry

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "wizzerdoz" <coslin@e...> wrote:
> At first reading, Jerry's post here appeared to wigg out a little,
> but after reviewing it a few times I interpreted it as being
> passionate, and not nearly as shitty as I initially thought.
==================
I guess one could look at it either way ;-)

The intent was to get all out and work through whatever it is any
thinks is wrong with EP in ref to new members be them IPSC or not and
getting folks down from the other clubs and along the way to try and
clear the air of any perceptions that are based on falsehoods.

Well after todays match those that showed I think cleared the air a
little.

To show support and no ill will towards the other clubs the powers to
be from EP will seek those powers to be from the other clubs and see
if we can get the Tri-club going.  It appeared this yrs was a large
success and folks mingled and swapped war stories, but mostly it
looked like all had a great time.  Hope this jester of solidarity
will, if there is any ill will from the other clubs clear the air.

Bottom line no one had bad things to say about the other clubs,
IPSC/USPSA or anything else so lets get back to doing what we like to
do and burn some powder up eh?!

See you folks around the matches.

Jerry

Well folks you missed a good time.  Nearly any match is worth while
and this one if I do say so myself was a good'un.  Not because I came
up with 5 of the 8 stages, but because it was good to relax with
friends and at the same time have some great competition.

The RC was 130.  As all found out more was needed ;)).  Four
scenarios, two drills, and two steel stages.  I think if nothing else
besides laughing at me all got a good workout on target transitions
and reloads.

Let me tell ya what in ref to the competition.  Results don't tell
the whole story.  First off there was 3 shooters who won the 8 stages
and it was give and take.

1-Jerry
2-Niff
3-Niff
4-Jerry
5-Troy
6-Troy
7-Jerry
8-Niff

Even with that Niff had a couple of failures to go into battery and
still smoked the lot of us.  No matter how I look/add his scores up
he did in fact smoke us all.  Congrats my friend!

Now Troy (placed second) just kept to hisself and the
score....uhmmm..;-)  He was so slick just being consistant (like he
did in LC last wk) that I think I am going to hang a sign around his
neck that says sneak to remind me just how sneaky he is.

Now Oz in all his bolster about the 1911 platform shot an honest to
goodness Colt 1911 and it did not bobble once and took third while
being out of practice with that platform. [gasp!]

Myself I was the old sb and forgot my ammo.  Gee that has never
happened before  ;-(  Anyway Oz loaned me some (BTW you can have it
back now ;-O ) And true to the form I buggered up,  No matter, I
could not find enough excuses to give me enough time to have beat
Niff.  A couple of stages he just smoked! Gotta practice - gotta
practice -anyone got ammo ;-)

K.C placed 5th, but still placed some really good scores and played
the swinger very safe since OZ and Dave was badgering all of us not
to shoot the barricade that Niff (thank you - not ;-0 ) placed in
front of the swinger, and that I think was where he lost his time.
KC I think Oz did it on purpose man.  I know Niff and him both were
with me ;-).

The setup went very easy and quick today thanks to the other two
match committee members and they also vol to come up with Decs CoF.
Thanks Niff and Troy.  As I said to a couple of the shooters the
match ran well because of everyone.

Speaking about everyone - A hearty thanks for all the work.  Everyone
to include a first time shooter pitched right in with what ever
required to be done.

Before I forget a spc thanks to Dan for bringing Les out.  It was a
pleasure to meet with him and if he continues to shoot I am sure he
will do very well with only a little more trigger time and time on
the gun.

I want all to know (calm down) that Dave is really starting to get
the hang of this IDPA stuff.  Always accurate he is know starting to
build his speed in movement while shooting and looked really good out
there today.

Dan as usall was extremly accurate and he was not intimidated by the
swinger or the barricade with the NS stapled to it's front.  ;-)
What was that I heard - a collaborator.  Well regardless it was sure
in the way and I wish I would not have wasted so much time on it and
used your technique ;-))

Wish more would have showed but alas it was not ment to be. [sigh]
It was truley one of my best times out since the weather worked out
great for us.  OK I greatly enjoyed the camaraderie.

The Dec Match is on and it was decided in the after match meeting to
make it a BuG match.  See you all around the matches!

Jerry

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
> Update as of 29 Nov 03.
> >
> Neal-    36
> KC-      20
> Oz-      18
> Elniff-  15
> Troy-    12
> Beau-    11
> Brad-     7
> Jerry-    7
> Charles-  6
> Sean-     5
> Mark-     4
> Dan -     2
> C. Espi-  1
> Jorge-    1

> Jerry AKA shootingbuff

Well  -

That was an ear/eye full...

At first reading, Jerry's post here appeared to wigg out a little,
but after reviewing it a few times I interpreted it as being
passionate, and not nearly as shitty as I initially thought.
Everyone has their own way of expressing or not expressing things,
and what I see from the post was some good points.  The most
prominent of those points is that WHATEVER has happened between
personalities is just that - past tense.

I think that we all want to do what is best for the club, because WE
are the club.  Volunteer organizations are tough to deal with, as we
all know.  At work, we get paid to deal with things and
personalities we don't like, which makes it just slightly more
palatable.  However, we are a volunteer club and we all came
together with some common interests.  I know that I learn from
everyone I shoot with, and I learn something at every match.
Enjoying this education keeps me moving forward, and we do have some
tremendous laughs - especially when I get multiple penalties on one
stage, etc.  8-0

But I have made some great friends in this club, and I do not take
that lightly.  I think that many of us just miss the comaraderie we
once enjoyed, as it seems to be in a lull at the current time.  With
a little perserverance and cooperation, I believe that we will get
that spirit back soon.

Being competitive is a good thing, but I certainly don't go out to
our matches expecting to either win or be miserable.  That, my
friends, is a good definiton of the term "bullshit."  I go out and
try to 1) Be safe, 2) hang out with like-minded people and have a
good time, 3) Challenge my skills with shooting that is not the
norm, 4) learn from those challenges and improve my weaknesses, and
5) did I say have a good time?

All work and no play makes Orfy Conk a dull boy, and we all
certainly have better things to do with our spare time than to spend
it doing something that is not fun.

(Orfy Conk is a mythical West Virginian who makes Jethro Bodeen look
like a rocket scientist.  More on that subject over schnitzel and
beers...)

Last year at the Farmington match I performed TERRIBLY, but I sure
did have a good time with everyone.  Bro. Sanker had a good time at
the brew pub, but we had to tell him about it the next day.

The officers of the club have tried to listen when the membership
has spoken - ie; shortening the safety briefs, changing start times,
getting new equipment, getting Range #2 with multiple bays, speeding
up the matches, upping the round count, reducing the stages from
wacky to more like "It could happen" while still being challenging,
forming a range committee (that seems to work, by the way,) holding
a big/tri-club match, etc.  Any and all ideas will be and have been
considered, but ideas are what keeps us grounded.  Without input
about what people want, we won't progress.

Personalities are what they are.  Deal with it and move on.  It
ain't worth ruining a great hobby over something that can be dealt
with by applying just a little effort.  Life is too short - enjoy
the matches and get out of them what you care to.

If the other clubs have issues, then it is up to them to work them
out.  We will do what we can and try not to piss people off, but you
can't please all of the people all of the time.  It is what it is.
I will be going to Cruces to support them in the near future - and
try to mend some fences if they need to be mended, but I will go
there to have a good time no matter what.  Mike and Clyde and the
other guys have been coming here, so the entire club can't be held
responsible for the perspectives of some.  If someone don't want to
shoot with us, they can squad up with anyone else they choose to -
no hair off my, uh, maybe that's not a good analogy...  I will still
try to help out when I can, no matter who needs it, wherever we go.

With the recent fine performances of some of our members, we are "On
the map" as a club, being known as a force to be reckoned with.
Let's not blow it now that we are on a roll.

Now go oil your guns!  (With anything but WD-40...)

Regards -

OZ

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "casidores02" <casidores@h...> wrote:
> I will mention the fact that I'd heard a couple of times
> from the Las Cruces club, that whenever shooters from El Paso and
> Deming showed up that they had a tendency to squad up together and
> not mingle with others. It is very likely we came off as being
> snobbish ourselves.......
> See ya
> K.C.
============
Only shot two matches there and visted once or twice.  Neither time
was all EP folks in one squad.  Can not speak about the other matches.

Let's go down that road a sec though.  It is human nature and not
snobish for folks to associate with folks that more resemble them or
that they have something in common with / know.

Like I said I can not speak for the other matches that LC has held
and I have not been at.

Anther view point - if only a couple or 3 ride down togather and not
know many folks as in the beginning of LCs IDPA history can one say
they are snobbish for not trying to place someone in each squad?

Even here folks ask to be in the same sqaud (both members and
visitors)  No biggie if it is not going to stop the earths rotation.

If I did not already have a warm and fuzzy for shooting LCs matches
from that staement alone I would say bugger them.  Lucky for me I
have an open mind and common sense (though I don't show it much).  So
if any person wants to cry send them my way.  I still have a bunch of
tissue from the EO days.

Actually what I have been perceiving for the longest is just that.  A
couple of folks start crying and others hear and then think it is
gosspel and or fact with out researching the issue theirself.

PC i ain't nor am I a baby sitter.  I don't baby the kids and I am
not going to start with adults.  If there is a problem with me I'll
stay away.

Coming back and trying to shoot again and hearing they said he said
your not nice my feelings are hurt, IDPA vs IPSc etc is bullshit!  I
came back to shoot and support.  This is an IDPA club and that is
what I chose to shoot.  I will not shoot anther game to make someone
feel better when one, I don't have the funds, 2 we have folks that
have been doing just that.  Nor will I ask what squad is PC for me to
be in.

I shoot with a wide range of folks from all differnt backgrounds and
walks of life.  I accept that in the understanding that we are all
adults.  Someone gets a chip bugger them, someone is acting more of a
baby then my baby bugger them.  If everyone is so upset about
freaking something that we can not have fun - well bugger all of
you.  If it's me just tell me to stay away.  I have little enough
time and wasting it with this BS is BS!

I was very pro IDPA at the beginning and still am.  It is for me.  If
one likes something else fine.  I have been trying to promote the
matches and work with Neal on improving them.  Like today my youngest
and I spent about 4 hours cutting uprights, building stands implacing
screws etc.  I have done something for the last 3 matches the wk
before to help ease the setup or make the steel look pretty.  I don't
have to nor will I if this club (hopefully the others) can not get
past this PETTY FREAKING STUFF.  Because that is excatly what it is!

I came to shoot guns not my mouth.  Oh I can do that too.  Thing is
that is not why I want to be in the FBIDPA.  If you folks don't grow
up I'll just start visiting LC instead and buy a god awful t-shirt or
hate from them.

What ever happened in the past (Steve and I talked at the Tri-club
and I found out I rubbed him the wrong way and I think we are past
that) a mature person would say is in the past.  I know I grew with
the club or at least changed a bit.  So if any wants to look back 2
yrs fine.  I am not losing any sleep.

Thing is if whatever is now eating at this club be it from inside or
out it is going to destroy it if it is not put in check.  Dunno about
LC either.  Going for 60+ shooters down to about what we do and a few
are the same.

Tri-club was fun it appeared (I know I was not participating) and
folks laughed and talked with each other.  Guess what?  Most of the
folks from the same club sat togather! geez Using that thought then
all three clubs are snobs eh?  Back to the point it (TRI_CLUB) needs
to be done and a total bitch session / focus group needs to happen at
least with FBIDPA.

EVERY swinging Richard and gun tooter that shoots with FBIDPA needs
to be there (SAT 29 NOV)so we can work internal issues and those from
the visitors and if it happened 2 yrs ago grow a pair or buy some. I
understand there are many sex shops in the area.

See you at the match and if your not there then you can not BITCH!
In saying keep your a-hole shut then.  If you come feel free to open
it an enlighten at lest me becasue I am not only interested but
freaking demanding to know what or who is caseing all this
discontent.

Now your asking by now who the hell am I?  Well I am the mouth of the
SW and by god a card carrying member of IDPA and a member of FBIDPA
who has been putting forth an effort to improve this club and all
aspects there of.  Key words are trying to improve and if we can not
talk then shit is going to get worse.

BTW the RC is 130, 8 stages.  BTW if shit doesn't improve the
Prez/VP/ and Tres will be getting up at dark 30. I perfer more than 3-
4 hrs a sleep before a match and get more if I just go to LC and
shoot.

I remember setting down at the club and we were talking about the tri-
club, a reginoal etc and look at us now.  It is not only sad but
pathitic (sp?).

You want a face and a name to put on whatever it is everyone seems to
be upset with / about?  Just call it Jerry even if it is not.  Hitler
did great things by giving the masses a foe and an enemy to focus
on.  I'll be that person if it will help the club to focus and start
growing again.

Again if you are not at the meeting you can not bitch and just need
to keep your a-hole shut.

It will be a good match especially if everyone shows up for a change.

I really hope I see EVERYONE there and at the after match meeting.

Visitors we need your input also so please don't stay away.

The Mouth and that is MR Mouth to you.

Jerry

While we are pondering the goings ons of the future of
combat pistol craft here in the Southwest,
I will mention the fact that I'd heard a couple of times
from the Las Cruces club, that whenever shooters from El Paso and
Deming showed up that they had a tendency to squad up together and
not mingle with others. It is very likely we came off as being
snobbish ourselves.......
See ya
K.C.







]

I belive Chris Elniff and Neal are on the right track about being
ambassadors for our sport among the IPSC folk...Just not sure I can
find the time or cash... Whenever we travel outside this area for
matches we find people who shoot both with no problem. In fact the
Phoenix R&G that held the Oct. regional is an IPSC club that also
shoots IDPA. The did a fantastic job. They understand the weaknesses
of both disiplines, but realize it is two games. This is how we play
one, this is how we play the other...
The challenge is can you perform under pressure?

I never worry about the "posers".
You'll always meet snobs of THEIR sport no matter what it
is..blow 'em off...they ain't worth the waste of conscience thought.
Not including the people we know, few of the IPSC shooters, when they
see my "stock" gear even speak to me, but I'm there to work on
something in my mechanics and not to impress them anyway.
The ones who look beyond "production class" have ALWAYS been positive
people I'm glad to have met. Helpful, fun and productive.

As far as the equipment race...3 types of people..
1- Gear heads who want every cool thing that comes along.
2- Folks who lack skill and use gimmicks to try and compensate.
3-Competitors squeezing all the performance they can out of
equipment.
The last will do well no matter what they use, or which game they
play.
Best thing IPSC ever did was to creat a production class to let
more folks who couldn't afford to spend big bucks to shoot. Now if
they won't treat it like an inferior class....

So get out their and shoot something!!
See ya
K.C.



--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@w...> wrote:
> Oz and Jerry,
> Instead of wondering why Deming changed their name (or has a dead
> dog for their mascot), or why LC didn't change their date, why
don't
> we invite both clubs to compete in the second annual tri-club
> match?  If Deming doesn't want to participate in an all IDPA match,
> then we should make it a hybrid match.  Honestly, I sense a
> militant, anti-IPSC strain from you guys and others people in this
> area (and some of the IPSC guys are pretty anti-IDPA).  Deming
likes
> IPSC; good for them.  It's all shooting, and it's pointless to
> bicker about the numurous disciplines that make up shooting.  We
can
> talk about it and adapt to it.  IPSC invited IDPA to set up a stage
> at their Nationals last year; naturally, IDPA turned them down.
> Let's not be that way.  I'd like to see a Tri-Club even if it isn't
> officially, totally, 110% IDPA.  Everybody had a good time at last
> year's shoot, so let's do it this year.  We'll even put in a steel
> challenge stage that isn't IDPA or IPSC.
>
> Remember that a weapon is just a platform; get caught up in the
> platform and your performance suffers.  Good luck w/ your piss-ant
> M4,
> Chris Elniff
> and this wasn't a flame so just respond reasonably.
>
> --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
> > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
> > > I have remained publicly silent regarding some current goings-
on
> in
> > the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I would
> like
> > to share some thoughts now.>
> > ==================
> >
> > Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that have
> > words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do admit I
> get
> > confused on.  ;-)
> >
> > L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds permit
I
> > will make anther of their IDPA matches.
> >
> > I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that
eh?) ;-
> )
> >
> > It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with me
> after
> > the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can be
> > misleading.
> >
> > I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the club
> and
> > it's visiting members need to communicate.
> >
> > Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))
> >
> > Jerry

The coyote stays.


  Happy Thanksgiving

   Kevin


--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "nealham" <nhamilto@e...> wrote:
> Finally, some lively discussion.  I guess this site isn't
completely
> dead yet.
>
> Here's my 2 cents.
>
> IDPA vs. USPSA/IPSC:
>
> Both are a blast, if someone hasn't tried both (recently) then they
> really should give it a try before talking bad about either one of
> them.
>
> I have met and shot with great people in each bunch.
>
> Like Steve said, the IPSC shooters have a general percention that
> IDPA shoots are extremely anti IPSC and that keeps some of them
> away.  On the other hand I have heard the same argument from the
IDPA
> side.  Chris Elniff really had a great idea a while back when he
said
> we should have several of our club start shooting with the IPSC
folks
> and be embassadors for IDPA.  Several of us have been shooting with
> them for a while and even though we have not drawn a lot of people
> over the other way, I believe we have done alot to change the
> perception of the IDPA shooters anti IPSC attitude.  Not to mention
> the perception that IDPA shooters are not at the same shooting
level
> of the IPSC folks.  Chris and the other shooters have made a real
> good showing at the IPSC matchs.
>
> We have had a few of the IPSC shooters come and shoot with us.  Oz
> mentioned one but we are forgetting one real good shooter who has
> shot with us numerous times and I'm sure would still be shooting
with
> us if he wasn't in Iraq right now.  That shooter is Jason Proffit.
> (Hope I got your last name right Jason.)
>
> AFA the relations 3 clubs here (EP, LC and Deming), I know exactly
> what Steve is talking about.  They, like most clubs, have only a
few
> people doing all the work.  Those few people decided that they
enjoy
> IPSC more then IDPA and if they are going to put forth the effort
to
> run the matchs then IPSC is the matchs they want to run.  (I still
> think you should get rid of the poor dogs picture)   :-)
>
> As Oz mentioned, I too was more then a little POed when L.C.
wouldn't
> help us out in our time of need.  The real bottom line of the whole
> thing though is that neither club has benefited from any animosity
> between the two groups.  As I have seen first hand in the El Paso
> shoots and looking at the score sheets posted on the L.C. site,
both
> clubs number of shooters has decreased since the problems.  The
last
> couple of matchs though it looks like everyone has finally decided
to
> let the past go.  The have seen several of the L.C. shooters coming
> down to shoot here and the same goes for EP shooters heading up to
> L.C.  I for one would love to shoot up in LC again but it conflicts
> with an IPSC match is Alamogordo which I have been shooting at.
>
> I have only been shooting IDPA for about 1 1/2 years now and have
> just started shooting IPSC a few months ago.  I think the
> similarities between the two far outnumber the differences.  The
> biggest similarity I have seen is also the most important.
>
> That is the fact that I have met great people at every shooting
club
> I have shot at, regardless of the type of shooting they prefer.
> Think about it, We have some great people here in the El Paso IDPA
> club.  The same is true in the L.C. and Deming clubs.  I have shoot
> IPSC with both the El Paso and Alamogordo clubs and a handfull of
> shooters who have traveled down from across NM and there are a
bunch
> of real good people there too.  I have shot large IDPA matchs in
> Phoenix and Farmington and at both of these areas I have met some
> great people.  Elniff, Beau and T, K.C. and the others from our
clubs
> have traveled to numerous major IDPA matchs and have all came back
> from each one saying how great the people were.
>
> I think the bottom line is that all of us shooters need to stick
> together against the anti-shooter bunches that would like to see
all
> of us gone.  Instead of putting another group down because you
don't
> believe that shooting a compensated, holo-opticed race gun is very
> practical, try to understand that they are shooting and having
fun.
> (I can tell you that shooting my open gun is a blast).  Personnally
> you will never see me at a cowboy action shoot, but if dressing up
> like a cowboy or cowgirl and shooting an old lever action off the
> back of a big rocking horse is your idea of fun then I hope you
enjoy
> the hell out of it and have a great time.
>
> AFA the tri-club match I would love to see the 2nd annual shoot
> happen.  I will be gone for the next couple of months but after
that
> I will do whatever I can to make it happen if that is what each
club
> wants.
>
> I hope everyone has a great holidays and I hope to see you all at
the
> various matchs around the area.
>
> Catch ya all later,
>
> Neal
>
>
> --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
> > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Burton" <sburton223@y...>
> wrote:
> > > OZ
> > >   First off the there are 3or 4
> > > people here that do most of the work putting on matches so we
> > > decided to enjoy them.I Hope this clears things up.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > ==================
> > Thanks Steve for posting.
> >
> > AFA the anti IPSC you and I talked about this somewhat at the Tri-
> > club.
> >
> > Ref what sport one shoots should be left up to the individual as
> all
> > so far has mentioned.  There should be no probs with that by
anyone.
> >
> > Hopefully your post is the start of clearing the air of
perceptions.
> >
> > Would enjoy you coming down once in awhile.
> >
> > Again thanks for posting,
> >
> > Jerry

Just a note to say Happy Thanksgiving to each and all, with best wishes for the
beginning of the holiday season.

See you at the match Saturday.

Chris / OZ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Finally, some lively discussion.  I guess this site isn't completely
dead yet.

Here's my 2 cents.

IDPA vs. USPSA/IPSC:

Both are a blast, if someone hasn't tried both (recently) then they
really should give it a try before talking bad about either one of
them.

I have met and shot with great people in each bunch.

Like Steve said, the IPSC shooters have a general percention that
IDPA shoots are extremely anti IPSC and that keeps some of them
away.  On the other hand I have heard the same argument from the IDPA
side.  Chris Elniff really had a great idea a while back when he said
we should have several of our club start shooting with the IPSC folks
and be embassadors for IDPA.  Several of us have been shooting with
them for a while and even though we have not drawn a lot of people
over the other way, I believe we have done alot to change the
perception of the IDPA shooters anti IPSC attitude.  Not to mention
the perception that IDPA shooters are not at the same shooting level
of the IPSC folks.  Chris and the other shooters have made a real
good showing at the IPSC matchs.

We have had a few of the IPSC shooters come and shoot with us.  Oz
mentioned one but we are forgetting one real good shooter who has
shot with us numerous times and I'm sure would still be shooting with
us if he wasn't in Iraq right now.  That shooter is Jason Proffit.
(Hope I got your last name right Jason.)

AFA the relations 3 clubs here (EP, LC and Deming), I know exactly
what Steve is talking about.  They, like most clubs, have only a few
people doing all the work.  Those few people decided that they enjoy
IPSC more then IDPA and if they are going to put forth the effort to
run the matchs then IPSC is the matchs they want to run.  (I still
think you should get rid of the poor dogs picture)   :-)

As Oz mentioned, I too was more then a little POed when L.C. wouldn't
help us out in our time of need.  The real bottom line of the whole
thing though is that neither club has benefited from any animosity
between the two groups.  As I have seen first hand in the El Paso
shoots and looking at the score sheets posted on the L.C. site, both
clubs number of shooters has decreased since the problems.  The last
couple of matchs though it looks like everyone has finally decided to
let the past go.  The have seen several of the L.C. shooters coming
down to shoot here and the same goes for EP shooters heading up to
L.C.  I for one would love to shoot up in LC again but it conflicts
with an IPSC match is Alamogordo which I have been shooting at.

I have only been shooting IDPA for about 1 1/2 years now and have
just started shooting IPSC a few months ago.  I think the
similarities between the two far outnumber the differences.  The
biggest similarity I have seen is also the most important.

That is the fact that I have met great people at every shooting club
I have shot at, regardless of the type of shooting they prefer.
Think about it, We have some great people here in the El Paso IDPA
club.  The same is true in the L.C. and Deming clubs.  I have shoot
IPSC with both the El Paso and Alamogordo clubs and a handfull of
shooters who have traveled down from across NM and there are a bunch
of real good people there too.  I have shot large IDPA matchs in
Phoenix and Farmington and at both of these areas I have met some
great people.  Elniff, Beau and T, K.C. and the others from our clubs
have traveled to numerous major IDPA matchs and have all came back
from each one saying how great the people were.

I think the bottom line is that all of us shooters need to stick
together against the anti-shooter bunches that would like to see all
of us gone.  Instead of putting another group down because you don't
believe that shooting a compensated, holo-opticed race gun is very
practical, try to understand that they are shooting and having fun.
(I can tell you that shooting my open gun is a blast).  Personnally
you will never see me at a cowboy action shoot, but if dressing up
like a cowboy or cowgirl and shooting an old lever action off the
back of a big rocking horse is your idea of fun then I hope you enjoy
the hell out of it and have a great time.

AFA the tri-club match I would love to see the 2nd annual shoot
happen.  I will be gone for the next couple of months but after that
I will do whatever I can to make it happen if that is what each club
wants.

I hope everyone has a great holidays and I hope to see you all at the
various matchs around the area.

Catch ya all later,

Neal


--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
> --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Burton" <sburton223@y...>
wrote:
> > OZ
> >   First off the there are 3or 4
> > people here that do most of the work putting on matches so we
> > decided to enjoy them.I Hope this clears things up.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> ==================
> Thanks Steve for posting.
>
> AFA the anti IPSC you and I talked about this somewhat at the Tri-
> club.
>
> Ref what sport one shoots should be left up to the individual as
all
> so far has mentioned.  There should be no probs with that by anyone.
>
> Hopefully your post is the start of clearing the air of perceptions.
>
> Would enjoy you coming down once in awhile.
>
> Again thanks for posting,
>
> Jerry

I know many have seen this but thought more exposure would be good an
on this wonderful day it would especially be a good read



November 18, 2003
London Times
If it weren't for America, you wouldn't be free to protest

By Victor David Hanson

Anger over the Iraq war is a privilege that Bush has fought hard to
protect


Why are so many thousands on the streets of London so furious at an
American President and the ongoing war in Iraq? Let us examine their
misguided reasons, before getting to the truth.
The animus cannot be over the demise of Saddam Hussein. His regime
killed more than two million citizens in three decades of state-
sponsored murder and wars. For liberal Westerners the end of the
Baathists, despite the current chaos of reconstruction, means no more
attacks against neighbouring countries. The destruction of the Marsh
Arabs and their fragile habitat has ended. British and American
pilots are no longer engaged in a 12-year, 350,000-sortie effort to
patrol Iraqi airspace to prevent further genocide. A brutal UN
embargo that punished Iraqi citizens for the crimes of the Baathists
is over.

Is it that protesters are angry at America's purportedly cavalier
treatment of Muslims? Are they ignoring that over 20 years we have
helped to expel Stalinists from Islamic Afghanistan, led the effort
to restore Muslim Kuwait, fed Muslims in Somalia and bombed
Christians to preserve Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia? We give more
than $3 billion a year to the Palestinians, Jordanians and Egyptians
to match our aid to Israel.

Do they think it a bad thing that Noriega, Milosevic and the Taleban
are gone? Whatever the endemic cynicism over US aims, the "national
liberation" mantra of the 1960s seems close to realisation, if the
nascent democratic movements in Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan and Iraq
are any indication. The demonstrators should at least harbour no
sympathy for our enemy's agenda: the fundamentalists' treatment of
women, homosexuals, religious dissidents and ethnic minorities is
from the Dark Ages.

Are the protesters repulsed at a "new" American preemption? If so, we
in America do not remember that Hitler first sent V2s to our shores
or that Milosevic cleansed Americans before we sent planes over their
skies to stop the butchery. In the recent Balkan conflict Americans
thought European omission, not American commission, allowed the loss
of 250,000 lives a few hours from Berlin and Paris.

Mr Bush's Christianity, cowboy metaphors, and drawl might grate on
European sensitivities. But he sought approval of the US Senate and
went to the UN before attacking Saddam, unlike a lip-biting Bill
Clinton, who bombed the Balkans, Africa and Iraq without either
national or multinational sanction. And, by the terrible arithmetic
of war, the Anglo-American effort to defeat the worst regime in the
Middle East has been remarkable in its efforts to minimise
casualties, both ours and Iraqi.

In fact, the rage of so many Europeans against America has more
fundamental roots. The world onslaught of our culture remains a deep
sore, whose scab Iraq has ripped off. But such a strange anger.
American popular culture from jeans to rap and fast food is simply a
manifestation of an inclusive democracy, just what the protesters,
both in their slogans and appearance, might seem to appreciate.

Indeed our music, fashion, entertainment and technology require few
prerequisites for participation and spread precisely because people
from all backgrounds and nations find common ground in easily
acquired tastes and appetites. So Starbucks and McDonald's are not
promulgated through gunboats, but are a result of the choices of free
consumers. Disruptive globalisation is a source of legitimate
concern, but the poor from China to Mexico seem to be better fed,
housed and cared for through the adoption of open markets than was
true under Mao or state socialism.

Far more likely the shrillness of the London protest reflects the
mood of the new Western citizen; the most affluent and privileged
individual in the history of civilisation, who, with the collapse of
the Soviet Union, can afford to find patriotism, civic militarism and
the singularity of Western culture all so passé. In an era when the
horrors of the Somme, the Great Depression, the Jewish Holocaust and
even SS10 Soviet nukes are dim memories, we have riches and
unrivalled freedom. So we demand perfection, expecting that we can
stop racism, class oppression, sexism and environmental desecration
as quickly and easily as we can find information on the internet or
communicate across the globe.

In this unrealistic view of the perfectibility of human nature, far
from being appreciative of our fragile peace, accomplishments and
luck, well-off Westerners demand more. Furious over our perceived
failures, we equate the pathologies of man exclusively with the sins
of an all-powerful West, especially those of its most powerful nation
as it is symbolised now by George Bush.

America reads daily about this growing anti-American sentiment and I
wonder whether those abroad stop to ponder the effect of all this
easy invective on those of us who live here. Americans as never
before are re-examining all the old alliances and friendships, from
troops in Europe and bases in the Mediterranean to peacekeepers in
the Balkans and ships in the Gulf. If privileged Western protesters
cannot tell the difference between what Saddam did and what America
is trying to do in Iraq, if they think that tomorrow's Saddams,
Milosevics and Kim Jong Ils will be awed by Nobel Prize awards,
barristers in The Hague and EU resolutions rather than aircraft
carriers, or if they assume in their end-of-history world that their
worship of reason is equally shared by all those outside the West, we
may be soon entering a far scarier world, when America in
exasperation - as it did for most of its history before the European
wars - will simply shrug and say: "Good luck to you all."



The author is a senior Fellow at the Hoover Institute, Stanford
University. His latest book is Ripples of Battle.

Here is hoping all will have a wonderful and happy Thanksgiving.

I ask you to take a second from the food, the football etc and
reflect as to the why of Thanksgiving instead of just reaping the
benifits and joy.

Wishing all a safe and wonderful holiday season.

Jerry

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Burton" <sburton223@y...> wrote:
> OZ
>   First off the there are 3or 4
> people here that do most of the work putting on matches so we
> decided to enjoy them.I Hope this clears things up.
>
> Steve
>
==================
Thanks Steve for posting.

AFA the anti IPSC you and I talked about this somewhat at the Tri-
club.

Ref what sport one shoots should be left up to the individual as all
so far has mentioned.  There should be no probs with that by anyone.

Hopefully your post is the start of clearing the air of perceptions.

Would enjoy you coming down once in awhile.

Again thanks for posting,

Jerry

OZ
   First off the name change had nothing to do with pollitcally
correctness,It was meant to reflect our shooting intrests,I could
give a tinkers damn about being pollitcally correct.I totally agree
with you about shooting what you like,I started shooting USPSA in
the late 80s and liked it then and still like it.I think i gave IDPA
a pretty good chance and found I dont enjoy it near as much as USPSA.
One of my first precipitions about IDPA was a strong anti USPSA Bias
and that is the reson that alot of USPSA shooters That i have talked
to have given me for not shooting IDPA,True or not that is the
precipition.I shoot for the Game i like to be able to look at a COF
and decide what is the best way for ME to shoot it the fastest and
most efficantly,I dont get that in IDPA some people are more
concernd with tactics and i understand that.I could care less what
sport you shoot or what gun you shoot it with as long as you get out
and shoot!! As far as personalty confltics i enjoy shooting with all
you guys we just have chosen different paths.I will still shoot an
IDPA match once inawhile that just isnt my foucs.We never intened to
piss anyone off over our change in direction here,there are 3or 4
people here that do most of the work putting on matches so we
decided to enjoy them.I Hope this clears things up.

Steve

       By the way Chris he aint dead hes sleeping.













--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
> Chris:
>
> As Jerry stated - I am not anti-IPSC.  I am pro-IDPA as I, and
many others, put a great deal of time and effort into the club, and
I am going to promote this club and its genre as much as possible.
I am not organized enough to split my efforts between two different
shooting disciplines while working full time.  If others want to go
shoot IPSC or Sporting Clays or anything else, then that is great!
I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way in my previous post.
>
> I used to shoot IPSC, and it came to a point that I felt that I
was merely paying a match fee to watch the up and coming pros kick
everyone's ass.  The last IPSC match I shot had Jerry Barnhart show
up with John Shaw, with all their sponsored gear, etc.  Sorry, but
my old parkerized GI 1911 with reloaded ball ammo couldn't keep up
with their .38 Super Space Guns, even if my skill level was the
same - which it wasn't.  There is a very interesting article by Doug
Koenig in the Jan/Feb 2004 American Handgunner regarding current
IPSC shortcomings, etc.  I could write a similar missive regarding
IDPA and its shortcomings.  Nonetheless, IDPA is what I shoot, so I
promote it.
>
> I admire your suggestion regarding a combined IPSC/IDPA match.
Unfortunately, I don't even see the Tri-Club match happening this
year, much less with multiple disciplines inter-twined.  There is
limited local participation in club basics, and a Tri-Club is a big
undertaking.  How often have we seen people who espouse big ideas,
indicating that they are going to accomplish something, and then it
doesn't get done between regular match days?  You get the point.
>
> Second, one of the problems I have with IPSC as is the same I have
with 3-gun:  Limitless equipment and endless tactically unsound
practices with no penalties.  When you can move with an empty weapon
and reload on the run, but get assessed a penalty for having a foot
outside of a shooting box in the middle of open ground, I don't get
it.  Before you throw raw vegetables at me, I know that IDPA has
silly rules too, but in my mind, not nearly as many.  And again - it
is just a personal preference on my part.
>
> IPSC has done a great deal for the shooting sports over the
years:  It has created many great competitors. (Who won't shoot a
match if the prize table doesn't have anything on it they want,
etc.)  IPSC has also been especially important in the development of
holsters and inter-gallactic optical propulsion systems, electro-
magnetic holsters, and variable power ray guns.
>
> (Sorry - I had to say it...  ;-)   )
>
> I know that IPSC has Limited 10 and Production Divisions, but how
many IPSC guys  - who have held matches only one range over from us
on the same range day for the last two years - have shot with us?
Richard O'Connor is the only one that I remember, but maybe one or
two more have done so.  For the record, we have had a very good
working relationship with the IPSC folks in El Paso, from an
officer's standpoint.  They have helped us, we have adjusted
schedules, they sold us some old poppers at a reasonable cost, etc.
I think we all shoot what we want to shoot.  If I want to shoot
IPSC, I will do so, but I don't want to muddy the waters of
combining shooting disciplines into one match, using different
rules, scoring, etc.  When Hi-Power Rifle matches reach success
incorporating Trap stages, then I may re-evaluate my opinion - but
it is only that - an opinion.
>
> Personally, I shoot IDPA and not IPSC as a choice.  If the club
wants to combine a match, then that is what we shall do.
>
> And I agree that one should not get hung up on a weapons system;
however, when systems are chosen by sheep for issue to warriors, the
weapon's operational functionality should be considered, beyond its
cost or ease of logisitics.  My report was for informational
purposes only, as not everyone in the club either owns or has had
the opportunity to train with an M-4.
>
> Chris / OZ
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com
>   To: FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 5:27 AM
>   Subject: [FBIDPA] Digest Number 592
>
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   FBIDPA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>   -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
>   There are 2 messages in this issue.
>
>   Topics in this digest:
>
>         1. Re: SW IDPA Thoughts
>              From: "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@w...>
>         2. Re: SW IDPA Thoughts
>              From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
>   Message: 1
>      Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:44:49 -0000
>      From: "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@w...>
>   Subject: Re: SW IDPA Thoughts
>
>   Oz and Jerry,
>   Instead of wondering why Deming changed their name (or has a
dead
>   dog for their mascot), or why LC didn't change their date, why
don't
>   we invite both clubs to compete in the second annual tri-club
>   match?  If Deming doesn't want to participate in an all IDPA
match,
>   then we should make it a hybrid match.  Honestly, I sense a
>   militant, anti-IPSC strain from you guys and others people in
this
>   area (and some of the IPSC guys are pretty anti-IDPA).  Deming
likes
>   IPSC; good for them.  It's all shooting, and it's pointless to
>   bicker about the numurous disciplines that make up shooting.  We
can
>   talk about it and adapt to it.  IPSC invited IDPA to set up a
stage
>   at their Nationals last year; naturally, IDPA turned them down.
>   Let's not be that way.  I'd like to see a Tri-Club even if it
isn't
>   officially, totally, 110% IDPA.  Everybody had a good time at
last
>   year's shoot, so let's do it this year.  We'll even put in a
steel
>   challenge stage that isn't IDPA or IPSC.
>
>   Remember that a weapon is just a platform; get caught up in the
>   platform and your performance suffers.  Good luck w/ your piss-
ant
>   M4,
>   Chris Elniff
>   and this wasn't a flame so just respond reasonably.
>
>   --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
>   > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...>
wrote:
>   > > I have remained publicly silent regarding some current
goings-on
>   in
>   > the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I
would
>   like
>   > to share some thoughts now.>
>   > ==================
>   >
>   > Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that
have
>   > words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do admit
I
>   get
>   > confused on.  ;-)
>   >
>   > L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds
permit I
>   > will make anther of their IDPA matches.
>   >
>   > I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that
eh?) ;-
>   )
>   >
>   > It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with me
>   after
>   > the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can be
>   > misleading.
>   >
>   > I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the
club
>   and
>   > it's visiting members need to communicate.
>   >
>   > Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))
>   >
>   > Jerry
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
>   Message: 2
>      Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:35:29 -0000
>      From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...>
>   Subject: Re: SW IDPA Thoughts
>
>   --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@w...>
wrote:
>   > Oz and Jerry,
>   > Instead of wondering why Deming changed their name (or has a
dead
>   > dog for their mascot), or why LC didn't change their date, why
>   don't
>   > we invite both clubs to compete in the second annual tri-club
>   > match?
>   =================
>   Lets see what was my next to last sentence?  Communicate.  Thank
that
>   pretty much sums it up.  We have been inviting folks down for
matches
>   and there were I believe four folks to include myself that went
to
>   the last LC match.  I speak with those that come here and I
spoke
>   with a few there.  Commuication is what it is all about be it
>   exchanging CoF or getting the Tri- club going again.  Speaking
of
>   which I did post on L.Cs site if anyone besides myself was
thinking
>   about it.  I was attempting to get some cross talk going.  Again
>   communication.  Which flows into socialization.  With
socialization
>   many perceptions can be laid to rest or enforced .. depending of
>   course.
>
>   I did not wonder nor have a dog (hee-hee) in the fight in ref to
>   Demming changing there name. I was trying to find out if I
offended
>   anyones feelings and that was keeping folks away and try to
clarify
>   as to the why.  Hopefully a misunderstanding  or something that
could
>   be worked out.  I don't really buy into it since I was busy for
most
>   of the past yr or so and had not spent much time with the club
until
>   the last couple or 3 months.
>
>   Which means I was not involved with anything you brought up.
Nor
>   should it matter to the other clubs since they are different
clubs
>   than EPs.
>
>
>   >If Deming doesn't want to participate in an all IDPA match,
>   > then we should make it a hybrid match.  Honestly, I sense a
>   > militant, anti-IPSC strain from you guys and others people in
this
>   > area (and some of the IPSC guys are pretty anti-IDPA).  Deming
>   likes
>   > IPSC; good for them.  It's all shooting, and it's pointless to
>   > bicker about the numurous disciplines that make up shooting.
We
>   can
>   > talk about it and adapt to it.
>   ==================
>   Last part first I say it is all good - all front sight and
trigger
>   squeeze, that the two are more alike than differnt etc.  AFA
using my
>   limited funds IDPA is the game for me.  If I had time and money
I
>   would be following Nelson around to all the matches regardless
of
>   what they are.  I don't and I pick IDPA.
>
>   AFA anti IPSC I don't think Oz or I are in the sense completly
>   against it.  I also appluad IPSC for being the reason we have
many
>   improvements in loaad data and equipment.  Pratcical IPSC isn't
nor
>   is IDPA totally defensive.
>
>   I am one of the most vocal people you could ever speak with
about
>   what I think is wrong with IDPA.  Yes I have contacted HQs on
may
>   occassions, so I am trying to better the sport.
>
>   Only thing I worry about Demming not shooting much IDPA is if
there
>   is a Tri-club.  Other than that again they are a different club
and
>   my limited funds do not / did not alow me to shoot their anyway.
>
>   I could settle for anthing involving just LC and EP if Deming
doesn't
>   want to play as long as it is not called Bi-Club :-)
>
>
>
>   IPSC invited IDPA to set up a stage
>   > at their Nationals last year; naturally, IDPA turned them
down.
>   > Let's not be that way.  I'd like to see a Tri-Club even if it
isn't
>   > officially, totally, 110% IDPA.  Everybody had a good time at
last
>   > year's shoot, so let's do it this year.  We'll even put in a
steel
>   > challenge stage that isn't IDPA or IPSC.
>   ==================
>   If mem serves each club here has invited the others.  IDPAers do
>   shoot the IPSC matchs but how many IPSC folks come to the IDPA
>   matches?  It is a great idea that seems not to have worked to
well
>   for IDPA here.  Inref to the Nats I am not HQs nor am I this or
that
>   club.  I support EP and will support the other two clubs as much
as I
>   can, but I can only be blamed for what I do as I can only speak
for
>   self.  AFA if, what, when, and where I think it needs to be
addressed
>   at the upcoming AAR and see if you and I and hopefully some
others
>   can push/force the powers to be to try and cordinate this
upcoming
>   Tri-Club.  We don't know until we try.  If you have noticed we
are
>   almost seeing eye to eye on everything.
>
>   >
>   > Remember that a weapon is just a platform; get caught up in
the
>   > platform and your performance suffers.
>   ================
>   Not sure here but remembeer if one does not know the platform
they
>   can not have performance.  Performance can be enhanced with a
>   specific platform.  It is all the person.  Gadgets nor mega
money
>   spent on equipment (other than ammo) is going to get the job
done if
>   the shooter can not.
>
>
>    Good luck w/ your piss-ant
>   > M4,
>   > Chris Elniff
>   > and this wasn't a flame so just respond reasonably.
>   ======================
>   Hope you are not speaking of my beloved XM177E2.  I addressed
>   concerns that you brought up and never did I attack the poster.
>   Communication -comunicate-socialization-socialize-group hug and
sing
>   campfire songs if that is what it takes.
>
>   BTW at least one member of anther club and I spoke for at least
35
>   min on how to improve all the clubs Sunday night.  Two worker
bees is
>   a start but it will take a lot more to make nice nice.
>
>   Jerry
>   >
>   > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...>
wrote:
>   > > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...>
wrote:
>   > > > I have remained publicly silent regarding some current
goings-
>   on
>   > in
>   > > the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I
would
>   > like
>   > > to share some thoughts now.>
>   > > ==================
>   > >
>   > > Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that
have
>   > > words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do
admit I
>   > get
>   > > confused on.  ;-)
>   > >
>   > > L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds
permit
>   I
>   > > will make anther of their IDPA matches.
>   > >
>   > > I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that
>   eh?) ;-
>   > )
>   > >
>   > > It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with
me
>   > after
>   > > the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can
be
>   > > misleading.
>   > >
>   > > I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the
club
>   > and
>   > > it's visiting members need to communicate.
>   > >
>   > > Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))
>   > >
>   > > Jerry
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris:

As Jerry stated - I am not anti-IPSC.  I am pro-IDPA as I, and many others, put
a great deal of time and effort into the club, and I am going to promote this
club and its genre as much as possible.  I am not organized enough to split my
efforts between two different shooting disciplines while working full time.  If
others want to go shoot IPSC or Sporting Clays or anything else, then that is
great!  I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way in my previous post.

I used to shoot IPSC, and it came to a point that I felt that I was merely
paying a match fee to watch the up and coming pros kick everyone's ass.  The
last IPSC match I shot had Jerry Barnhart show up with John Shaw, with all their
sponsored gear, etc.  Sorry, but my old parkerized GI 1911 with reloaded ball
ammo couldn't keep up with their .38 Super Space Guns, even if my skill level
was the same - which it wasn't.  There is a very interesting article by Doug
Koenig in the Jan/Feb 2004 American Handgunner regarding current IPSC
shortcomings, etc.  I could write a similar missive regarding IDPA and its
shortcomings.  Nonetheless, IDPA is what I shoot, so I promote it.

I admire your suggestion regarding a combined IPSC/IDPA match.  Unfortunately, I
don't even see the Tri-Club match happening this year, much less with multiple
disciplines inter-twined.  There is limited local participation in club basics,
and a Tri-Club is a big undertaking.  How often have we seen people who espouse
big ideas, indicating that they are going to accomplish something, and then it
doesn't get done between regular match days?  You get the point.

Second, one of the problems I have with IPSC as is the same I have with 3-gun: 
Limitless equipment and endless tactically unsound practices with no penalties. 
When you can move with an empty weapon and reload on the run, but get assessed a
penalty for having a foot outside of a shooting box in the middle of open
ground, I don't get it.  Before you throw raw vegetables at me, I know that IDPA
has silly rules too, but in my mind, not nearly as many.  And again - it is just
a personal preference on my part.

IPSC has done a great deal for the shooting sports over the years:  It has
created many great competitors. (Who won't shoot a match if the prize table
doesn't have anything on it they want, etc.)  IPSC has also been especially
important in the development of holsters and inter-gallactic optical propulsion
systems, electro-magnetic holsters, and variable power ray guns.

(Sorry - I had to say it...  ;-)   )

I know that IPSC has Limited 10 and Production Divisions, but how many IPSC guys
- who have held matches only one range over from us on the same range day for
the last two years - have shot with us?  Richard O'Connor is the only one that I
remember, but maybe one or two more have done so.  For the record, we have had a
very good working relationship with the IPSC folks in El Paso, from an officer's
standpoint.  They have helped us, we have adjusted schedules, they sold us some
old poppers at a reasonable cost, etc.  I think we all shoot what we want to
shoot.  If I want to shoot IPSC, I will do so, but I don't want to muddy the
waters of combining shooting disciplines into one match, using different rules,
scoring, etc.  When Hi-Power Rifle matches reach success incorporating Trap
stages, then I may re-evaluate my opinion - but it is only that - an opinion.

Personally, I shoot IDPA and not IPSC as a choice.  If the club wants to combine
a match, then that is what we shall do.

And I agree that one should not get hung up on a weapons system; however, when
systems are chosen by sheep for issue to warriors, the weapon's operational
functionality should be considered, beyond its cost or ease of logisitics.  My
report was for informational purposes only, as not everyone in the club either
owns or has had the opportunity to train with an M-4.

Chris / OZ
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com
   To: FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 5:27 AM
   Subject: [FBIDPA] Digest Number 592



   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   FBIDPA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


   ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   There are 2 messages in this issue.

   Topics in this digest:

         1. Re: SW IDPA Thoughts
              From: "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@...>
         2. Re: SW IDPA Thoughts
              From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>


   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________

   Message: 1
      Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:44:49 -0000
      From: "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@...>
   Subject: Re: SW IDPA Thoughts

   Oz and Jerry,
   Instead of wondering why Deming changed their name (or has a dead
   dog for their mascot), or why LC didn't change their date, why don't
   we invite both clubs to compete in the second annual tri-club
   match?  If Deming doesn't want to participate in an all IDPA match,
   then we should make it a hybrid match.  Honestly, I sense a
   militant, anti-IPSC strain from you guys and others people in this
   area (and some of the IPSC guys are pretty anti-IDPA).  Deming likes
   IPSC; good for them.  It's all shooting, and it's pointless to
   bicker about the numurous disciplines that make up shooting.  We can
   talk about it and adapt to it.  IPSC invited IDPA to set up a stage
   at their Nationals last year; naturally, IDPA turned them down.
   Let's not be that way.  I'd like to see a Tri-Club even if it isn't
   officially, totally, 110% IDPA.  Everybody had a good time at last
   year's shoot, so let's do it this year.  We'll even put in a steel
   challenge stage that isn't IDPA or IPSC.

   Remember that a weapon is just a platform; get caught up in the
   platform and your performance suffers.  Good luck w/ your piss-ant
   M4,
   Chris Elniff
   and this wasn't a flame so just respond reasonably.

   --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
   > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
   > > I have remained publicly silent regarding some current goings-on
   in
   > the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I would
   like
   > to share some thoughts now.>
   > ==================
   >
   > Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that have
   > words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do admit I
   get
   > confused on.  ;-)
   >
   > L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds permit I
   > will make anther of their IDPA matches.
   >
   > I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that eh?) ;-
   )
   >
   > It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with me
   after
   > the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can be
   > misleading.
   >
   > I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the club
   and
   > it's visiting members need to communicate.
   >
   > Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))
   >
   > Jerry



   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________

   Message: 2
      Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:35:29 -0000
      From: "Jerry" <shootingbuff@...>
   Subject: Re: SW IDPA Thoughts

   --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@w...> wrote:
   > Oz and Jerry,
   > Instead of wondering why Deming changed their name (or has a dead
   > dog for their mascot), or why LC didn't change their date, why
   don't
   > we invite both clubs to compete in the second annual tri-club
   > match?
   =================
   Lets see what was my next to last sentence?  Communicate.  Thank that
   pretty much sums it up.  We have been inviting folks down for matches
   and there were I believe four folks to include myself that went to
   the last LC match.  I speak with those that come here and I spoke
   with a few there.  Commuication is what it is all about be it
   exchanging CoF or getting the Tri- club going again.  Speaking of
   which I did post on L.Cs site if anyone besides myself was thinking
   about it.  I was attempting to get some cross talk going.  Again
   communication.  Which flows into socialization.  With socialization
   many perceptions can be laid to rest or enforced .. depending of
   course.

   I did not wonder nor have a dog (hee-hee) in the fight in ref to
   Demming changing there name. I was trying to find out if I offended
   anyones feelings and that was keeping folks away and try to clarify
   as to the why.  Hopefully a misunderstanding  or something that could
   be worked out.  I don't really buy into it since I was busy for most
   of the past yr or so and had not spent much time with the club until
   the last couple or 3 months.

   Which means I was not involved with anything you brought up.  Nor
   should it matter to the other clubs since they are different clubs
   than EPs.


   >If Deming doesn't want to participate in an all IDPA match,
   > then we should make it a hybrid match.  Honestly, I sense a
   > militant, anti-IPSC strain from you guys and others people in this
   > area (and some of the IPSC guys are pretty anti-IDPA).  Deming
   likes
   > IPSC; good for them.  It's all shooting, and it's pointless to
   > bicker about the numurous disciplines that make up shooting.  We
   can
   > talk about it and adapt to it.
   ==================
   Last part first I say it is all good - all front sight and trigger
   squeeze, that the two are more alike than differnt etc.  AFA using my
   limited funds IDPA is the game for me.  If I had time and money I
   would be following Nelson around to all the matches regardless of
   what they are.  I don't and I pick IDPA.

   AFA anti IPSC I don't think Oz or I are in the sense completly
   against it.  I also appluad IPSC for being the reason we have many
   improvements in loaad data and equipment.  Pratcical IPSC isn't nor
   is IDPA totally defensive.

   I am one of the most vocal people you could ever speak with about
   what I think is wrong with IDPA.  Yes I have contacted HQs on may
   occassions, so I am trying to better the sport.

   Only thing I worry about Demming not shooting much IDPA is if there
   is a Tri-club.  Other than that again they are a different club and
   my limited funds do not / did not alow me to shoot their anyway.

   I could settle for anthing involving just LC and EP if Deming doesn't
   want to play as long as it is not called Bi-Club :-)



   IPSC invited IDPA to set up a stage
   > at their Nationals last year; naturally, IDPA turned them down.
   > Let's not be that way.  I'd like to see a Tri-Club even if it isn't
   > officially, totally, 110% IDPA.  Everybody had a good time at last
   > year's shoot, so let's do it this year.  We'll even put in a steel
   > challenge stage that isn't IDPA or IPSC.
   ==================
   If mem serves each club here has invited the others.  IDPAers do
   shoot the IPSC matchs but how many IPSC folks come to the IDPA
   matches?  It is a great idea that seems not to have worked to well
   for IDPA here.  Inref to the Nats I am not HQs nor am I this or that
   club.  I support EP and will support the other two clubs as much as I
   can, but I can only be blamed for what I do as I can only speak for
   self.  AFA if, what, when, and where I think it needs to be addressed
   at the upcoming AAR and see if you and I and hopefully some others
   can push/force the powers to be to try and cordinate this upcoming
   Tri-Club.  We don't know until we try.  If you have noticed we are
   almost seeing eye to eye on everything.

   >
   > Remember that a weapon is just a platform; get caught up in the
   > platform and your performance suffers.
   ================
   Not sure here but remembeer if one does not know the platform they
   can not have performance.  Performance can be enhanced with a
   specific platform.  It is all the person.  Gadgets nor mega money
   spent on equipment (other than ammo) is going to get the job done if
   the shooter can not.


    Good luck w/ your piss-ant
   > M4,
   > Chris Elniff
   > and this wasn't a flame so just respond reasonably.
   ======================
   Hope you are not speaking of my beloved XM177E2.  I addressed
   concerns that you brought up and never did I attack the poster.
   Communication -comunicate-socialization-socialize-group hug and sing
   campfire songs if that is what it takes.

   BTW at least one member of anther club and I spoke for at least 35
   min on how to improve all the clubs Sunday night.  Two worker bees is
   a start but it will take a lot more to make nice nice.

   Jerry
   >
   > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
   > > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
   > > > I have remained publicly silent regarding some current goings-
   on
   > in
   > > the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I would
   > like
   > > to share some thoughts now.>
   > > ==================
   > >
   > > Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that have
   > > words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do admit I
   > get
   > > confused on.  ;-)
   > >
   > > L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds permit
   I
   > > will make anther of their IDPA matches.
   > >
   > > I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that
   eh?) ;-
   > )
   > >
   > > It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with me
   > after
   > > the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can be
   > > misleading.
   > >
   > > I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the club
   > and
   > > it's visiting members need to communicate.
   > >
   > > Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))
   > >
   > > Jerry



   ________________________________________________________________________
   ________________________________________________________________________



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Elniff" <theniffs@w...> wrote:
> Oz and Jerry,
> Instead of wondering why Deming changed their name (or has a dead
> dog for their mascot), or why LC didn't change their date, why
don't
> we invite both clubs to compete in the second annual tri-club
> match?
=================
Lets see what was my next to last sentence?  Communicate.  Thank that
pretty much sums it up.  We have been inviting folks down for matches
and there were I believe four folks to include myself that went to
the last LC match.  I speak with those that come here and I spoke
with a few there.  Commuication is what it is all about be it
exchanging CoF or getting the Tri- club going again.  Speaking of
which I did post on L.Cs site if anyone besides myself was thinking
about it.  I was attempting to get some cross talk going.  Again
communication.  Which flows into socialization.  With socialization
many perceptions can be laid to rest or enforced .. depending of
course.

I did not wonder nor have a dog (hee-hee) in the fight in ref to
Demming changing there name. I was trying to find out if I offended
anyones feelings and that was keeping folks away and try to clarify
as to the why.  Hopefully a misunderstanding  or something that could
be worked out.  I don't really buy into it since I was busy for most
of the past yr or so and had not spent much time with the club until
the last couple or 3 months.

Which means I was not involved with anything you brought up.  Nor
should it matter to the other clubs since they are different clubs
than EPs.


>If Deming doesn't want to participate in an all IDPA match,
> then we should make it a hybrid match.  Honestly, I sense a
> militant, anti-IPSC strain from you guys and others people in this
> area (and some of the IPSC guys are pretty anti-IDPA).  Deming
likes
> IPSC; good for them.  It's all shooting, and it's pointless to
> bicker about the numurous disciplines that make up shooting.  We
can
> talk about it and adapt to it.
==================
Last part first I say it is all good - all front sight and trigger
squeeze, that the two are more alike than differnt etc.  AFA using my
limited funds IDPA is the game for me.  If I had time and money I
would be following Nelson around to all the matches regardless of
what they are.  I don't and I pick IDPA.

AFA anti IPSC I don't think Oz or I are in the sense completly
against it.  I also appluad IPSC for being the reason we have many
improvements in loaad data and equipment.  Pratcical IPSC isn't nor
is IDPA totally defensive.

I am one of the most vocal people you could ever speak with about
what I think is wrong with IDPA.  Yes I have contacted HQs on may
occassions, so I am trying to better the sport.

Only thing I worry about Demming not shooting much IDPA is if there
is a Tri-club.  Other than that again they are a different club and
my limited funds do not / did not alow me to shoot their anyway.

I could settle for anthing involving just LC and EP if Deming doesn't
want to play as long as it is not called Bi-Club :-)



IPSC invited IDPA to set up a stage
> at their Nationals last year; naturally, IDPA turned them down.
> Let's not be that way.  I'd like to see a Tri-Club even if it isn't
> officially, totally, 110% IDPA.  Everybody had a good time at last
> year's shoot, so let's do it this year.  We'll even put in a steel
> challenge stage that isn't IDPA or IPSC.
==================
If mem serves each club here has invited the others.  IDPAers do
shoot the IPSC matchs but how many IPSC folks come to the IDPA
matches?  It is a great idea that seems not to have worked to well
for IDPA here.  Inref to the Nats I am not HQs nor am I this or that
club.  I support EP and will support the other two clubs as much as I
can, but I can only be blamed for what I do as I can only speak for
self.  AFA if, what, when, and where I think it needs to be addressed
at the upcoming AAR and see if you and I and hopefully some others
can push/force the powers to be to try and cordinate this upcoming
Tri-Club.  We don't know until we try.  If you have noticed we are
almost seeing eye to eye on everything.

>
> Remember that a weapon is just a platform; get caught up in the
> platform and your performance suffers.
================
Not sure here but remembeer if one does not know the platform they
can not have performance.  Performance can be enhanced with a
specific platform.  It is all the person.  Gadgets nor mega money
spent on equipment (other than ammo) is going to get the job done if
the shooter can not.


  Good luck w/ your piss-ant
> M4,
> Chris Elniff
> and this wasn't a flame so just respond reasonably.
======================
Hope you are not speaking of my beloved XM177E2.  I addressed
concerns that you brought up and never did I attack the poster.
Communication -comunicate-socialization-socialize-group hug and sing
campfire songs if that is what it takes.

BTW at least one member of anther club and I spoke for at least 35
min on how to improve all the clubs Sunday night.  Two worker bees is
a start but it will take a lot more to make nice nice.

Jerry
>
> --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
> > --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
> > > I have remained publicly silent regarding some current goings-
on
> in
> > the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I would
> like
> > to share some thoughts now.>
> > ==================
> >
> > Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that have
> > words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do admit I
> get
> > confused on.  ;-)
> >
> > L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds permit
I
> > will make anther of their IDPA matches.
> >
> > I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that
eh?) ;-
> )
> >
> > It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with me
> after
> > the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can be
> > misleading.
> >
> > I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the club
> and
> > it's visiting members need to communicate.
> >
> > Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))
> >
> > Jerry

Oz and Jerry,
Instead of wondering why Deming changed their name (or has a dead
dog for their mascot), or why LC didn't change their date, why don't
we invite both clubs to compete in the second annual tri-club
match?  If Deming doesn't want to participate in an all IDPA match,
then we should make it a hybrid match.  Honestly, I sense a
militant, anti-IPSC strain from you guys and others people in this
area (and some of the IPSC guys are pretty anti-IDPA).  Deming likes
IPSC; good for them.  It's all shooting, and it's pointless to
bicker about the numurous disciplines that make up shooting.  We can
talk about it and adapt to it.  IPSC invited IDPA to set up a stage
at their Nationals last year; naturally, IDPA turned them down.
Let's not be that way.  I'd like to see a Tri-Club even if it isn't
officially, totally, 110% IDPA.  Everybody had a good time at last
year's shoot, so let's do it this year.  We'll even put in a steel
challenge stage that isn't IDPA or IPSC.

Remember that a weapon is just a platform; get caught up in the
platform and your performance suffers.  Good luck w/ your piss-ant
M4,
Chris Elniff
and this wasn't a flame so just respond reasonably.

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <shootingbuff@y...> wrote:
> --- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
> > I have remained publicly silent regarding some current goings-on
in
> the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I would
like
> to share some thoughts now.>
> ==================
>
> Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that have
> words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do admit I
get
> confused on.  ;-)
>
> L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds permit I
> will make anther of their IDPA matches.
>
> I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that eh?) ;-
)
>
> It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with me
after
> the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can be
> misleading.
>
> I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the club
and
> it's visiting members need to communicate.
>
> Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))
>
> Jerry

--- In FBIDPA@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Oslin" <coslin@e...> wrote:
> I have remained publicly silent regarding some current goings-on in
the IDPA clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I would like
to share some thoughts now.>
==================

Well I undestand part of what Oz is saying.  The parts that have
words with more than 5 and even sometimes 4 letters I do admit I get
confused on.  ;-)

L.C match from my view point was worth while and if funds permit I
will make anther of their IDPA matches.

I would just like to add my .02 (what's differnt about that eh?) ;-)

It is that if any has a problem with me to discuss it with me after
the next match.  E-mails get confusing and even phones can be
misleading.

I think the important part that Oz is trying to make is the club and
it's visiting members need to communicate.

Never seen my post so brief eh? ;-))

Jerry

I have remained publicly silent regarding some current goings-on in the IDPA
clubs here in our part of the desert.  However, I would like to share some
thoughts now.

The folks about 100 miles west of here felt it necessary to change their name to
one that is considerably more Politically Correct.  That may not have been the
intent, but it truly is the result.  Taking the word "Defensive" from their name
and replacing it with some other will not have any effect at all in the court
system, much like the word "Practical" has no bearing in the courts, but is
still used worldwide in another sport.

I am saddened that they have gotten away from our discipline, as they always put
on great matches and everyone seemd to have a good time at their matches.  I
trust that they will continue to enjoy whatever discipline(s) they shoot, as
they are a great bunch of folks to be around.

I do not think that IDPA is the greatest thing in the world, but it is fun and
it has some limited real-world applications.  Only Steven Seagal movies seem to
make the world think that using a comp-gun for defensive purposes is acceptable.
I will admit that those guns are a lot of fun to shoot!  IDPA does try to limit
the "Arms Race" however, which is something that I find endearing.  However any
trigger time is better than no trigger time, so I wish the folks out there well
in their endeavors.

Our friends 50 miles west of use have also had their fair share of trials and
tribulations over the last year or so.  Clubs go through up and down cycles,
with a core group usually carrying it through both the good times and the bad. 
This is common amongst volunteer organizations.  Admittedly, I, like many in our
club, was disheartened when they did not opt to help us out with changing their
match schedule when our back was up against the wall.  I have discussed this at
length with several of their membership, and I hold no ill will, and I have
urged and continue to urge our club members to hold no animosity towards them,
either.  Those folks are a great group, and they rightfully make their decisions
as an independent organization.  I hope to get up there and shoot with them
soon.

IDPA was designed to be a "Trophy Only Sport."  I frequently see that there may
be too much emphasis on who wins and who does not.  This really is too bad.  I
think it gets away from what we intended to do when we started IDPA in the
Desert Southwest.

From all reports, the match in Cruces yesterday was a good time, and isn't that
what shooting in a club is all about?  At times I have felt that folks were not
having a good time at our matches off and on, and for this I apologize on behalf
of both the club and myself.  If anyone doesn't come out because of something or
someone, then it cannot be corrected if it is kept close to one's chest.  If
IDPA is not one's cup of tea, then OK.  However if there are local
administrative or personality issues, then they can at least be addressed, if
not changed.

If our club has problems that keep some from participating, then we need to know
it so that the problems can be reviewed, addressed, and changed as applicable. 
If I have done something - or a multitude of things - then I need to know it
before I can address it.  I know my faults and shortcomings as well as anyone,
but being a mere mortal, I often cannot see the forest for the trees until it is
too late.  Please let me know if and how I have pissed anyone off enough to
prevent them from participating.

With all of the above in mind, let it suffice to say that the club is there for
the members to have fun, to socialize with others who have a like-minded
interest, and to learn and hone our skills.  It is nothing more than that, nor
should it be.  This is one of the reasons that IDPA has no cash prizes.  I like
to compete as much as anyone, but I would prefer to have a relaxing atmosphere
where laughing or nodding approval of another person's performance or
improvement is paramount.

Rather than starting a flame war on the site, if people would contact KC or me
offline with any issues that may exist, it will be accepted as constructive and
with an open mind, and treated as the same.  As appropriate, the issues will be
posted and submitted to the membership if it cannot be solved by the officers -
or if desired - put directly to the membership for consideration.

Fair deal?  I hope so.  The club means a lot to many people who have continued
to support it to the best of their abilities, and I hope that the coming year
gets us a little closer to its original intent and satisfying rewards.

Take care everyone -

Chris / OZ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

First, let me answer K.C's question:  The 9mm Golden Saber Bonded pic in the
photos section is a +P cartridge.  That's what I carry in my issued duty gun. 
According to the tests, that round was the best performer of those that they
fired in that caliber.  Very consistent and very accurate.  They used 9mm
Hydra-Shoks, Gold Dots in standard and +P velocities and some other bullet that
I have forgotten.  The WORST performers in all calibers were the Hydra-Shoks,
both in terms of accuracy AND performance/expansion and penetration.  Apparently
the center "pin" inside the hollowpoint of the Hydra-Shoks is not consistently
centered, and this prevents it from stabilizing consistently, which affects the
whole nine yards.

Also, my post regarding the M-4 needs correction:  If you fire only ONE or TWO
rounds from the burst mode, THEN the gun will fire the remaining rounds needed
to complete the Three-Round burst cycle before it re-sets to normal three-round
fire.  So if you fire two this squeeze, the next squeeze will only result in one
round being launched.

Here is the AMAZEMENT:

On Friday I went to the Columbus P.D. range and met my friend Rob, who had three
very high quality 1911's.  Using reloaded 230 grain JHP practice rounds, we
fired about 500 or so rounds from each gun WITHOUT ANY MALFUNCTIONS!  Also, each
gun shot smaller than 3" groups consistently, offhand, at distances of 7, 15,
and 25 yards!

The guns used were a Springfield TRP - full size gun with Novak fixed sights; a
Les Baer Premier  - full size with fixed sights, and a Cylinder & Slide
Adventurer, which is essentially a chopped Officer's Model.  The grip of the
Adventurer has been copped off, and the mag only holds 5 rounds.  The whole gun
is melted and blued.

The Springfield has agressive 20 LPI checkering on the front strap, and felt
exaclty like my Colt, which also has 20 LPI checkering.  The Les Baer has 30 LPI
checkering, but the trigger guard has been undercut so it gives the gun a
totally different feel when firing.  When hand cycling the Springfield, the
lockup is like a Cadillac, but the Les Baer is like a Mercedes!  Amazingly,
retail price of the Springfield is more than the Baer.

The Adventurer is what impressed me the most.  The gun has a barrel that is
about 3" or 3.5", depending on how you measure - from the chamber or from the
beginning of the rifling.  Bill Laughridge - owner of Cylinder & Slide - has
licensed the double recoil spring and reverse plug system from Seecamp.  The gun
uses a Bar-Sto cone barrel, which he fits after milling the interior of the
slide, and then fits them both to each other.  He also modifies the mags, which
he says need LOTS of extra tension on the springs in order to make the little
1911's reliable.  That little gun shot the best for me of the three, with little
noticeable increase in recoil.

Upon field-stripping the guns for cleaning, both of the full-size guns required
a bushing wrench to separate the uppers.  The bushing just would not turn by
hand.  This comes from extensive fitting of the bushings to the barrel and then
from the bushing to the slide.

Examination of the interiors of the guns showed extensive fitting of the muzzle
end of the guns, as described, as well as fitting of the lugs to the recesses,
as well as fitting of the barrel hoods to the breech faces, and then fitting of
the links.  Polished chambers and ramps, of course, and triggers that broke
cleanly without creep or overtravel, but each trigger had no lighter than 2.5 to
3.5 lbs. pull.  Obviously, the extractors were tuned and polished in all the
right places.  Each gun was a "Series 70," having no firing pin safeties.  The
springfield had a "Black T" coating, which showed holster wear and a few
scratches, as Rob carries that gun.  The other two guns were blued, and
Laughridge put an 18 carat gold bead on the front sight of his little
Adventurer.  The Les Baer also had a gold bead on its front sight.  The gold is
surprisingly easy to pick up in any light, and against any color background. 
This is something to be considered in the future.

Once done shooting, Rob asked me if I thought differently of 1911's than I had
before, and I admitted that shooting those guns gave me considerably more
confidence in the system than I had before.  I was truly amazed at the
reliability of the guns, and of course the single action of the guns really aids
in trigger control.  Double taps and Bill Drills were quick and to point of aim
at 7 yards, all printing within 6 inches.

So then I asked the question:  Why do the 1911 guns that work have to cost
$1,000.00 and up?  Each of these guns were over $1,600.00 retail, with the
Aventurer costing more than a Grand more than that.  I know that there are some
box-stock 1911's that do work, and I cannot complain about the reliability of
any of the Kimbers we have seen, but even they cost $800.00 or more.  The loaded
Springfields also seem to be very reliable when people leave them alone, as well
as the new Para-Ordnance guns and the new 1911 Dan Wessons.  External extractors
seem to be more common today, and this will dramatically increase reliability.

We did call Bill Laughridge after we got back, and my Officer's Model is going
to be shipped to Nebraska in the next few weeks for him to work on.  He said he
is backed up about 6 months, which I know is very minimal lag time for a Master
Pistolsmith.  Of course, overhauling my OM is going to cost me the price of a
few Glocks...

I have met Bill a few times, and he did tell me that Officer's size guns and
smaller should have their recoil springs replaced every 250 rounds or so, and
full size 1911 guns should be replaced every 750 to 1,500 rounds.  This could be
a reason my Officer's doesn't work well - as I have the original springs in it. 
I admitted my ignorance to him about the life-span of those recoil springs. 
Anyway, I thought everyone should be aware of a Master 'smith's thoughts on 1911
recoil springs.

Admittedly, there is something about shooting a slab-sided gun that works.  I
just can't define it.

I hope that with modern technlogy, refinements in the system, and current
manufacturing and production capabilities, that the 1911's achieve reliability
and price that compares to the other combat gun systems available.

But for now, I am happily amazed.  ;-)

Chris / OZ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]