Yes, we love Gruden for taking us to the superbowl.  But since then ----

Martin is a very emotional guy.  They should have let him continue to
leap for joy after his successes.  But, seriously, it seemed like he
could not get back on track after the Panthers got in his head last
year.  I just had a feeling he wouldn't be able to play against them
Sunday.  And if I could predict, I would say Grammatica is going to be
automatic again when he leaves the Bucs.  Someone is going to snap up a
prize.  But he just could not do it for the Bucs anymore.  And I know he
wanted to.  DR

Yes, we love Gruden for taking us to the superbowl.  But since then ----

Nov 30, 2004 - The Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Martin Gramatica have
had many enjoyable days together. Tuesday was not one of them.

On Tuesday afternoon, the Bucs made the roster move that had become
nearly inevitable, releasing the sixth-year kicker 11 games into the
2004 season. Gramatica leaves as the team's all-time leading scorer
and the only Buc kicker ever to make the Pro Bowl, but his more
recent efforts have been less successful.

To replace Gramatica, the Bucs signed first-year kicker Jay Taylor,
who recently spent a week on the Bucs' practice squad.


General Manager Bruce Allen was scheduled to discuss the moves at a
4:00 p.m. press briefing. Buccaneers.com will provide further
thoughts on the issue from the team's perspective after Allen's
briefing.

Gramatica's departure comes two days after he missed three field
goals from 39 yards or closer (one was blocked) in a 21-14 loss at
Carolina. He connected on a 53-yard kick at New Orleans in Week Five
but has since missed seven of his last nine, with the only two
successful tries coming from 22 yards. In all, Gramatica finished
his 2004 efforts in Tampa with 11 field goals in 19 tries and 21
extra points in 22 tries for a total of 54 points.

Though he watched Gramatica struggle on and off for the past two
seasons, Head Coach Jon Gruden was surprised that the 2000 Pro
Bowler never regained his form as a Buccaneer.

"It is just unfortunate that the kid has not been able to perform to
the standards that he has in the past," said Gruden on Monday. "It's
astonishing to me because he has been amazing here."

Gruden said the Buccaneers had to do whatever was necessary to
correct their problems in the kicking game, given how close many
games – and many playoff races – tend to be.

"I am not a mathematician, but the percentage of games that are
decided by four or five points or less, is pretty revealing," he
said. "If that's the phase of your football that is lacking or way
behind – you're 32nd in accuracy – there's a good chance you are
going to lose some tight games."

Taylor will be the first player other than Gramatica to kick for the
Bucs since Doug Brien handled the final two regular season games in
2001. Gramatica missed those two games with a hamstring strain but
otherwise handled the kicking chores in the other 96 games
(including playoffs) since he was drafted in the third round in 1999.

Gramatica finishes as the franchise leader in career points, with
591, and the holder of most of the team's career and single-season
records. His career standards include those for field goals (137),
field goal attempts (179), extra points (180) and extra points
attempted (182). He owns the top three single-season scoring marks
in team history, led by 128 points in 2002, plus season records for
field goals (32), field goal attempts (39), extra points (42) and
extra points attempted (42). Other Buc records under Gramatica's
name include most consecutive field goals made (16) and most
consecutive extra points made (129). He was also 11 for 12 on field
goals and 15 for 15 on extra points in seven postseason games.

Gramatica went to the Pro Bowl following the 2000 season, in which
he connected on 28 of 34 field goals (82.4%), including five of
seven from 50 yards or further, and all 42 of his extra point tries
for 126 total points. He had a nearly identical season two years
later in the Bucs' Super Bowl campaign, making 32 of 39 field goal
tries (82.1%), including five of six from 50 yards or further, and
all 32 of his extra point tries for 128 total points.

In 2003, Gramatica's field goal percentage dropped to a career-low
61.5%, as he made just 16 of 26 tries in a season that began with a
training camp injury. He was healthy heading into 2004, however, and
a nine-of-10 start kindled hope that he had regained his form.
Unfortunately, two missed field goals in a 28-21 loss at St. Louis
on October 18 started the a midseason slide.

If I'm not mistaken...wasn't Gruden one of the top candidates before
Willingham took the job? South Bend people wish Chucky was headed
their way. Just goes to show, though that Chucky's still a popular
coach around the country.

mw

--- In Bucs@yahoogroups.com, Leopold James <ljames@u...> wrote:
> I noticed this on Yahoo! Sports and thought that it was quite
interesting.
>  Personally, I don't believe the Glazers are looking to replace
Jon in
> Tampa but you never know about these things.  It was also
interesting that
> Jon was leading in the voting at the time.  IMO, if the Glazers
were to
> release/lose Jon a year after allowing Rich to go to Atlanta
they'd be
> hung in effigy on the corner of Dale Mabry and MLK.
>
> Stay tuned...
>
>
> Poll Results
> Question: Ideal replacement for Willingham at ND:
>
> Thanks for voting!
> 1421 votes since Nov 30 2004
>
>
> Urban Meyer
> 22%
> 315 votes
> Jeff Tedford
> 5%
> 74 votes
> Butch Davis
> 20%
> 279 votes
> Jon Gruden
> 28%
> 398 votes
> Lou Holtz
> 25%
> 355 votes

The kicks were the difference.  You throw for 350 and run for 130 and hold them to 14 points with 2 minutes to go and you should be kneeling on the football.  I mean, we all know he's hurt; but if he's so badly hurt that he can't kick he needs to be on IR and we should be trying out kickers starting tomorrow.  You take this tragedy and the kick we didn't even attempt against Atlanta and he has, at a minimum, cost us two games.  That's the difference between 4-7 and playing out the string and 6-5 and still having a shot at the division. If everything else was going well, maybe we could weather Martin's "performances" but given the situation with our injuries, unfortuneately for him, his season appears to be the straw that's broken the camel's back.  Hopefully, but the end of the week, we'll find somebody who can kick the football.

<Sigh!>

Ok.  Well, is our season over?  For all practical purposes, yes it is because it's hard to envision this team flying cross-country and beating a hot San Diego team on their field.  Right now, it would take a miracle for this team to finish 8-8.  There have been positives this season: Clayton, Pittman, Griese, Tory Cox, DeWayne White, Ian Gold, ,Jermaine Phillips, Sean Mahan (not to mention the return of DexterJackson).  There's a good base to build on for the future.

Looking forward to the draft, I think our key areas of need are at DT, WR (SE), and OL (C).  I'd like to see us grab someone like OU's Mark Clayton in the 1st and problem and offensive lineman in the 2nd.  I'd like to see us get a solid pivot and move Mahan back to his natural guard spot.  This isn't considered a super year for DTs but I could see us finding a servicable 2-gap tackle in the 3rd or 4th rounds.  At this point it looks like we'll have two selections in the top 48 picks.  If we get a couple more impact guys, get guys back healthy, and come out of the gate ready to play football next year we should be a factor in the race for Super Bowl XXXX.

Oh, well.

Bah!  <Humbug!>

Jane Taylor <janieinfl@...> 11/28/2004 03:43 PM Please respond to Bucs

To:        Bucs@yahoogroups.com         cc:                 Subject:        Re: [Bucs] Against Carolina right now...and the kicking game...sigh...

I totally agree, apparently the local sportcasters do too. I heard the phase "missed field goals" mentioned over a dozen times... in every interview they asked about them to: Gruden, Griese, Brooks, Pittman & Clayton.... Our guys also mentioned that we can't have fumbles, turn-overs etc. either. It was a painful, critical loss.  No one wants to be in Gramatica's position having to fly home with a team that played their hearts out with his performance lacking so.
 
On a bright note. Griese QB'd for 354 yds. a record for him.
 
Gruden mentioned that everyone has to do their job. (This taken out of context in all that he said...) but I do believe that most of that comment was in reference to Grammatica. Hopefully,  there will be a lot of pressure finally to start a different kicker... Unfortunately it may be too late? As many of us agreed, they should've made that change weeks ago!!!!!
Janie

Leopold James <ljames@...> wrote:

Well, that third kick ripped the heart out of this football team.  They'd gotten down there, tied 14 all, and put themselves in a position to take the lead with less than two minutes left in the game.  I know that guys like Brooks are going to beat themselves up about giving up a 2-minute drive, but you could just feel the air go out of our team when we missed that 37 yarder.  Martin Gramatica is a braver man than me.  If I were he, I'd be very reluctant to get on that plane with guys who fought their guts out all day after I'd had the day that he had.  He blew this game and has taken a lot of steam out of the rest of this season.  I'm sure he's lost the confidence of his team.  He's got to go.

Ish Engle <reverend_ish@...> 11/28/2004 02:20 PM Please respond to Bucs

To:        Bucs@yahoogroups.com        cc:                Subject:        Re: [Bucs] Against Carolina right now...and the kicking game...sigh...

only the 3rd, and it still got down and should've been through.  the 26yarder was blocked (kicked low, line let the guy through), the other was just plain awful.
 
How do we beat a team so badly and lose?
 


beastofbabylon@... wrote:
i cant see any of this game since i am out of state .. but were all 3 kicks today bad holds ?


Charles "Ish" Engle

"And you shall call his name Ishmael,
because the Lord has given heed to
your affliction." Gen 16:11b

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Well, that third kick ripped the heart out of this football team.  They'd gotten down there, tied 14 all, and put themselves in a position to take the lead with less than two minutes left in the game.  I know that guys like Brooks are going to beat themselves up about giving up a 2-minute drive, but you could just feel the air go out of our team when we missed that 37 yarder.  Martin Gramatica is a braver man than me.  If I were he, I'd be very reluctant to get on that plane with guys who fought their guts out all day after I'd had the day that he had.  He blew this game and has taken a lot of steam out of the rest of this season.  I'm sure he's lost the confidence of his team.  He's got to go.

Ish Engle <reverend_ish@...> 11/28/2004 02:20 PM Please respond to Bucs

To:        Bucs@yahoogroups.com         cc:                 Subject:        Re: [Bucs] Against Carolina right now...and the kicking game...sigh...

only the 3rd, and it still got down and should've been through.  the 26yarder was blocked (kicked low, line let the guy through), the other was just plain awful.
 
How do we beat a team so badly and lose?
 


beastofbabylon@... wrote:
i cant see any of this game since i am out of state .. but were all 3 kicks today bad holds ?


Charles "Ish" Engle

"And you shall call his name Ishmael,
because the Lord has given heed to
your affliction." Gen 16:11b

---

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i cant see any of this game since i am out of state .. but were all 3 kicks today bad holds ?

...Gene just said it on the radio as Martin tried a 38-yarder (once a
long time ago considered an easy kick)..."Nooooo...STINKING...good!"
AUGH.  Another MISS!  From what was once an easy spot!  AUGH!!!

The announcers did note that the snap was high and the placement poor
for the kick.  And this has happened before, very noticeably, where
the snap or hold sucked rhino.  Could it be the holder's problem?

Ok.  As I typed this, Carolina just scored the go-ahead touchdown.
WHAT THE F-CK!!!!  We had their passing game shut down all game long
and NOW THEY SCORE?!?!?!  I think the defense took a F-CKING NAP!
FIRE THE BUMS!

AUUUUGH!

But on the bright side, the cornerback pool ought to be decent for
next April's rookie draft...at least, I'M HOPING it's
decent...AUUUUGGGGGHHHH!!!!!

Yahoo! Sports - NBA - Knicks 104, Hawks 88
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2004112318

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New York 104, Atlanta 88 Preview - Box Score - Recap   By CHRIS SHERIDAN, AP Basketball Writer November 23, 2004 AP - Nov 23, 10:29 pm EST More Photos NEW YORK (AP) -- Ten games into the season and eight games removed from being booed off the court in their home opener, the New York Knicks have reached .500 and moved into first place in the Atlantic Division. Nazr Mohammed had another strong game against the team that traded him last season, scoring 18 points and grabbing 14 rebounds Tuesday night to lead New York past the Atlanta Hawks 104-88. If the Knicks can defeat Toronto on Wednesday night, they'll move above .500 for the first time in nearly three years. ``I think we're moving in the right direction, but I still feel we have a ways to go,'' coach Lenny Wilkens said. ``I like the intensity we're coming out with now. The defense is getting better.'' Stephon Marbury had 11 assists -- all in the first half -- and Jamal Crawford scored 17 as New York moved past Boston and Toronto into sole possession of first place. Marbury scored 16, and Kurt Thomas continued his recent strong play with 12 points and 11 rebounds. Antoine Walker scored 20 and Al Harrington 19 for the Hawks. ADVERTISEMENT Mohammed was acquired in February when Knicks president Isiah Thomas sent Keith Van Horn to Milwaukee in a three-way trade that also netted Tim Thomas. Initially judged to be a secondary player in that deal, Mohammed is turning out to be the more valuable asset. Mohammed shot 8-for-12 and had three steals, while Tim Thomas missed his first seven shots and finished 1-for-9 for nine points in his seventh single-digit scoring performance among the Knicks' first 10 games. Last March, Mohammed had 18 points and 13 rebounds last March in his first game against the Hawks, with whom he spent three seasons. ``I wanted a little bit more of an opportunity while I was there, so I kind of showed them what they're missing,'' Mohammed said. Atlanta lost at Madison Square Garden for the 10th straight time. Marbury had seven assists before he attempted his first field goal, and the Knicks led 24-19 after one quarter behind the 4-for-4 shooting of Kurt Thomas. Marbury got his 10th assist on a jumper by Kurt Thomas that made it 47-39 with 1:49 left before halftime. AP - Nov 23, 10:20 pm EST More Photos ``He penetrated and got us wide open looks, and that's what you expect from your point guard,'' Kurt Thomas said. Tim Thomas broke his shooting slump on a three-point play that gave the Knicks a 60-48 lead, and Crawford followed by blocking Kenny Anderson's breakaway layup attempt and then sprinting all the way back downcourt to convert a transition layup that turned into a three-point play. Marbury checked in only briefly in the fourth quarter, knocking down a 22-footer with 1 second left on the shot clock for a 90-73 lead with 7:32 remaining. The Hawks never threatened again. ``We were terrible tonight. The effort wasn't there,'' Hawks coach Mike Woodson said. ``You can't play a good team like the Knicks and expect to win playing this way. Notes Hawks G Royal Ivey left in the second quarter with a sprained medial collateral ligament in his right knee. ... C Peja Drobnjak sprained his ankle in the third quarter and did not return. ... Point guard Jamison Brewer made his Knicks debut, and his first basket was an impressive one-handed dunk in transition over Boris Diaw. ``That's probably the best way you can let 'em know you're a Knick,' said Brewer, who judged the dunk the best of his NBA career./**/... Rookie Josh Childress replaced Diaw in the Hawks' starting lineup and had five steals, five assists, five rebounds, two blocked shots and 13 points. Updated on Tuesday, Nov 23, 2004 10:45 pm EST Email to a Friend | View Popular  Next Opponents Miami at Atlanta Wed Nov 24, 2004, 7:30 pm EST   New York at Toronto Wed Nov 24, 2004, 7:00 pm EST  Sponsored Links Become a Sponsor  1. New York Knicks - TicketMagic sells premium tickets to all New York Knicks games. Sell your unused Knicks tickets absolutely free. www.ticketmagic.com 2. New York Knicks: In-depth Company Info - Go to Hoover's Online for in-depth, first-hand, company coverage provided by business experts. Get an overview, key executive bios, financials, news, industry trends, and competitor info. www.hoovers.com 3. New York Knicks Fan Shops - Buy your favorite NBA basketball team merchandise here. Choose from official NBA hats, jerseys and apparel. hometeams.com

NBA Recaps Tue Nov 23, 2004 Toronto 86 Washington 102 Final Boston 96 Indiana 106 Final Detroit 89 Charlotte 91 Final Portland 99 Miami 87 Final Seattle 103 Minnesota 92 Final New Jersey at Denver Houston at Sacramento New Orleans at Golden State Milwaukee at LA Lakers

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Needless to say, IT RULES when you...you...can beat up on a 1-9 team
like that.  Sigh.

Happy Turkey Pagan Sacrifice Day!

Needless to say, IT RULES when you...you...can beat up on a 1-9 team
like that.  Sigh.

Happy Turkey Pagan Sacrifice Day!

hmmmm..... interesting observations.  My concern more than anything else is discipline.  Way to many mistakes, penalties, blocking errors, blitz recognition and coverage problems (Crumpler is good, but that TD was a serious mental mistake!). 
 
Look at the NFL, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Kansas City, teams with AMAZING talents, but without discipline (T.O. will be the end of the Eagles, They might make the Super Bowl, but only because they are in the weaker conference.)
 
Now look at New England and Pittsburgh, teams with just average (or slightly above average) talents but they play a disciplined, TEAM game. 
 
Tampa does not have the talent to be a team that can overcome their lack of discipline.  When they play a clean, disciplined game they have the talent to beat anyone, but as long as they play like Oakland East Coast they will be never be more than an 7-9 to 9-7 team.
 
I believe this starts on the sideline.  I have spent the last couple of years being very quiet about Chucky, but enough is enough.  He came from Oakland, took Tony's team to the Super Bowl and then done nothing but drive a top team into what they are now.  I believe Gruden should be given one more year to get things back on track or it is time to start looking again.  I can deal with a 7-9 to 9-7 team that is showing promise of GROWING.  This team is a 6-10 (7-9 if they are lucky) and if they do not improve their discipline I think we might be looking at 5-11 (We will beat SF this weekend and Carolina at home).
 
Now, I will sit back and wait for the back-fire from you all.
 
-Will
 
PS - To touch on the draft point.  I am not a big College fan and rarely look at the draft until just before draft day, but I believe the draft should look in this order.  Tackles first (either O or D, whichever is the best available player).  Than look at RB (someone in the Dunn or Barber mold that would fit a West Coast style team).  From their, I can not think of a position that could not use a good player (except maybe QB, Sims in the future and Griese (when given time) is a great fill-in/ backup, so pick the best possible athelete.  I feel sorry for Brad, odd man out, My best hope for him is a new team that he can lead to another Super Bowl (Kansas City comes to mind).


Leopold James <ljames@...> wrote:

Neither.

O'Dwyer and Deese are band-aids, Stussie's only option is retirement, and they're talking "career ending injury" with Wade.  As much as they'd like to make a sexy pick (such as Oklahoma's Mark Clayton) they may have to try to find the next Paul Gruber in this draft.  On the other hand, Gruden/Allen likes veteran offensive linemen so I could see them going back into free agency for blockers (after watching Griese go down 7 times yesterday, you could make a case for that being a good idea) and drafting a young speed guy at WR.  Gruden's found his young QBs this season and badly wants more speed to the outside.  I think his offense has proven to work vertically when he's been able to put a healthy Galloway on the field (for a quarter against the 'Skins and a little more than a half against KC).  I'm sure he feels that finding a guy to complement Michael Clayton will take his offense to the next level.  Also, I think he'd like to find a young pass catching TE on the first day of the draft.  Dudley was one of the first guys to go down this year and Gruden's not been able to stretch the field with his Y receivers at all this year.

Now, you mentioned safety and DT.  I honestly don't see them making a move in the secondary but I think DT is a spot that a high draft choice could be spent on.  This isn't a big year for DTs and my favorite guy, Anttaj Hawthorne (6-3, 312, Wisconsin, Sr), is being projected as  a top-10 pick in some mock drafts; however the Bucs might be hoping that a guy like Brandon McKinney (6-3, 330, Michigan St., Jr) comes out (as most believe that he will) and falls to them in the second round.  It's no secret that they'd like to find a dominant run stopper to plug in at NG.

"cntrlfla06" <wittylibrarian@...> 11/15/2004 09:47 AM Please respond to Bucs

To:        Bucs@yahoogroups.com         cc:                 Subject:        [Bucs] Observation from the Bucs/Falcons game...the only one I can make now

...Okay.  First round draft pick: Defensive tackle or safety?

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...Okay.  First round draft pick: Defensive tackle or safety?