Dear Alex,


there is no idea for a franchise, or any official association, for that matter.
The idea is as simple as I wrote it; non - official collaboration between
people.
I would use the word understanding.

it can for example be as simple as putting a link or publicity in different
languages (websites and forums related to the group members) regarding your or
any other group member, future Bartitsu Classes, or collaboration regarding
different events.

So we are talking about autonomy of people in which the thing that unite us is
being european and the information we share, that can be useful for others who
live "near by" and might want to join.

Lets write to one another via email and see what can be done together.


Ran

--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Kiermayer" <KiermayerAB@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Ran,
>
> I don`t want to offend you, but I´m a little bit skeptical of this Idea. I
> have bad experiences with organisations that offer a kind of martial arts
> franchise system. I might completely misunderstand you but I think we should
> work slowly with an official colaboration.
>
> I´m sure that Carsten Hoffmann is a good guy. I´m also a member of the ADFD
> and know of his work. I hope that I´ll meet him in one of the Academy
> meetings and talk to him regarding these things.
>
> I know a few guys around Germany who are interested in Bartitsu.
>
> Could you please describe more how you imagine this colaboration?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex
>
>
>   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>   Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von bartitsuclubitalia
>   Gesendet: Freitag, 13. November 2009 13:10
>   An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>   Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Re: Bartitsu Club Europe
>
>
>
>   Good to hear from you too, Stefan!
>
>   please feel free to contact me via my email address, so we can see what
> can be done together with both you and Alex; as you understand the idea of
> Bartitsu Club Germany is new and therefore we create it together, now! (also
> via the forum). The other person interested in Bartitsu is Karsten Hoffmann,
> who is directorial member of the AAI, ADFD and OSC Berlin.
>   Even that he is new to Bartitsu, he is skilled in Fencing and Artistic
> Fencing and is behind the production of Artistic Duelling/ Fencing
> Championships, (including the world championships and the competition in
> Berlin).
>   Regardless to the idea of having Berlin as a Center, it is mainly for
> communication and coordination, (between the different people that join or
> will join; like you and Alex), rather than physically doing all the
> activities there. Karsten is very skilled with this line of work.
>   As I wrote before, it is a non political agreement of collaboration
> between people who share the same passion to Bartitsu.
>   Therefore, to collaborate and promote one another's (Bartitsu Related)
> work in Germany and Europe. (promote your work and exchange information and
> arrange master classes in places), in such a way that we find more way to
> meet and interact
>   It is more a way to share our efforts than anything else.
>
>   Ran
>
>   --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Dieke <forumabo@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Hello Ran,
>   >
>   > well, now that you told us where the center for the Bartitsu Club
> Germany shall be, could you please tell us also who is in
>   > Berlin? So far the only person who came to my mind who would be
> seriously interested in Bartitsu in Germany besides me is Alex.
>   > So who's out there in Berlin?
>   >
>   > Stefan
>   >
>   > bartitsuclubitalia schrieb:
>   > > Good to hear from you Alex! I see that the idea of Bartitsu Club
> Germany has made already a good thing! (its purpose); if you manage to meet
> and collaborate and include also other Bartitsukas from around Germany.
>   > > The center (regarding coordination is in Berlin) and I would like to
> hear from you on my email address; ranarthurbraun@
>   > > This is a non political idea! just collaboration of people with the
> same wish to practice and promote Bartitsu, Therefore, if there are any
> other Germany based members of the forum, please feel free to contact me,
> (even in German)
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Ran
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Kiermayer" <KiermayerAB@>
> wrote:
>   > >> Hello Ran,
>   > >>
>   > >> sounds good! Would you mind telling me who will be the representative
> for
>   > >> the Bartitsu Club Germany? As far I know there are not too many
> people
>   > >> practicing it here.
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >> Servus,
>   > >>
>   > >> Alex
>   > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>   > >> Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>   > >> [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von
> bartitsuclubitalia
>   > >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 20:14
>   > >> An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>   > >> Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu Club Europe
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >> After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth
> of
>   > >> its younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the
>   > >> bartitsu.org website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu
> Club
>   > >> France will join and we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
>   > >> Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and
>   > >> exchange Instructors and research information, while promoting
> Bartitsu in
>   > >> Europe, in collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
>   > >> We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to
> have
>   > >> the "same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also
> with
>   > >> the choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the
> centers and
>   > >> make sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same
>   > >> controlled "base" (Formation).
>   > >> Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du
>   > >> Combat and traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and
> techniques.
>   > >>
>   > >> Looking forward!
>   > >>
>   > >> Ran
>   > >>
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   >
>

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von bartitsuclubitalia
Gesendet: Freitag, 13. November 2009 13:10
An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Re: Bartitsu Club Europe

 

Good to hear from you too, Stefan!

please feel free to contact me via my email address, so we can see what can be done together with both you and Alex; as you understand the idea of Bartitsu Club Germany is new and therefore we create it together, now! (also via the forum). The other person interested in Bartitsu is Karsten Hoffmann, who is directorial member of the AAI, ADFD and OSC Berlin.
Even that he is new to Bartitsu, he is skilled in Fencing and Artistic Fencing and is behind the production of Artistic Duelling/ Fencing Championships, (including the world championships and the competition in Berlin).
Regardless to the idea of having Berlin as a Center, it is mainly for communication and coordination, (between the different people that join or will join; like you and Alex), rather than physically doing all the activities there. Karsten is very skilled with this line of work.
As I wrote before, it is a non political agreement of collaboration between people who share the same passion to Bartitsu.
Therefore, to collaborate and promote one another's (Bartitsu Related) work in Germany and Europe. (promote your work and exchange information and arrange master classes in places), in such a way that we find more way to meet and interact
It is more a way to share our efforts than anything else.

Ran

--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Dieke <forumabo@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Ran,
>
> well, now that you told us where the center for the Bartitsu Club Germany shall be, could you please tell us also who is in
> Berlin? So far the only person who came to my mind who would be seriously interested in Bartitsu in Germany besides me is Alex.
> So who's out there in Berlin?
>
> Stefan
>
> bartitsuclubitalia schrieb:
> > Good to hear from you Alex! I see that the idea of Bartitsu Club Germany has made already a good thing! (its purpose); if you manage to meet and collaborate and include also other Bartitsukas from around Germany.
> > The center (regarding coordination is in Berlin) and I would like to hear from you on my email address; ranarthurbraun@...
> > This is a non political idea! just collaboration of people with the same wish to practice and promote Bartitsu, Therefore, if there are any other Germany based members of the forum, please feel free to contact me, (even in German)
> >
> >
> > Ran
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Kiermayer" <KiermayerAB@> wrote:
> >> Hello Ran,
> >>
> >> sounds good! Would you mind telling me who will be the representative for
> >> the Bartitsu Club Germany? As far I know there are not too many people
> >> practicing it here.
> >>
> >>
> >> Servus,
> >>
> >> Alex
> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >> [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von bartitsuclubitalia
> >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 20:14
> >> An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >> Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu Club Europe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth of
> >> its younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the
> >> bartitsu.org website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu Club
> >> France will join and we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
> >> Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and
> >> exchange Instructors and research information, while promoting Bartitsu in
> >> Europe, in collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
> >> We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to have
> >> the "same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also with
> >> the choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the centers and
> >> make sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same
> >> controlled "base" (Formation).
> >> Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du
> >> Combat and traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and techniques.
> >>
> >> Looking forward!
> >>
> >> Ran
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

Good to hear from you too, Stefan!

please feel free to contact me via my email address, so we can see what can be
done together with both you and Alex; as you understand the idea of Bartitsu
Club Germany is new and therefore we create it together, now! (also via the
forum). The other person interested in Bartitsu is Karsten Hoffmann, who is
directorial member of the AAI, ADFD and OSC Berlin.
Even that he is new to Bartitsu, he is skilled in Fencing and Artistic Fencing 
and is behind the production of Artistic Duelling/ Fencing Championships,
(including the world championships and the competition in Berlin).
Regardless to the idea of having Berlin as a Center, it is mainly for
communication and coordination, (between the different people that join or will
join; like you and Alex), rather than physically doing all the activities there.
Karsten is very skilled with this line of work.
  As I wrote before, it is a non political agreement of collaboration between
people who share the same passion to Bartitsu.
Therefore, to collaborate and promote one another's (Bartitsu Related) work in
Germany and Europe. (promote your work and exchange information and arrange
master classes in places), in such a way that we find more way to meet and
interact
It is more a way to share our efforts than anything else.

Ran


--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Dieke <forumabo@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Ran,
>
> well, now that you told us where the center for the Bartitsu Club Germany
shall be, could you please tell us also who is in
> Berlin? So far the only person who came to my mind who would be seriously
interested in Bartitsu in Germany besides me is Alex.
> So who's out there in Berlin?
>
> Stefan
>
> bartitsuclubitalia schrieb:
> > Good to hear from you Alex! I see that the idea of Bartitsu Club Germany has
made already a good thing! (its purpose); if you manage to meet and collaborate
and include also other Bartitsukas from around Germany.
> > The center (regarding coordination is in Berlin) and I would like to hear
from you on my email address; ranarthurbraun@...
> > This is a non political idea! just collaboration of people with the same
wish to practice and promote Bartitsu, Therefore, if there are any other Germany
based members of the forum, please feel free to contact me, (even in German)
> >
> >
> > Ran
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Kiermayer" <KiermayerAB@>
wrote:
> >> Hello Ran,
> >>
> >> sounds good! Would you mind telling me who will be the representative for
> >> the Bartitsu Club Germany? As far I know there are not too many people
> >> practicing it here.
> >>
> >>
> >> Servus,
> >>
> >> Alex
> >>   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>   Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >> [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von bartitsuclubitalia
> >>   Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 20:14
> >>   An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> >>   Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu Club Europe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth of
> >> its younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the
> >> bartitsu.org website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu Club
> >> France will join and we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
> >>   Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and
> >> exchange Instructors and research information, while promoting Bartitsu in
> >> Europe, in collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
> >>   We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to have
> >> the "same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also with
> >> the choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the centers and
> >> make sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same
> >> controlled "base" (Formation).
> >>   Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du
> >> Combat and traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and
techniques.
> >>
> >>   Looking forward!
> >>
> >>   Ran
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

Hello Ran,

well, now that you told us where the center for the Bartitsu Club Germany shall
be, could you please tell us also who is in
Berlin? So far the only person who came to my mind who would be seriously
interested in Bartitsu in Germany besides me is Alex.
So who's out there in Berlin?

Stefan

bartitsuclubitalia schrieb:
> Good to hear from you Alex! I see that the idea of Bartitsu Club Germany has
made already a good thing! (its purpose); if you manage to meet and collaborate
and include also other Bartitsukas from around Germany.
> The center (regarding coordination is in Berlin) and I would like to hear from
you on my email address; ranarthurbraun@...
> This is a non political idea! just collaboration of people with the same wish
to practice and promote Bartitsu, Therefore, if there are any other Germany
based members of the forum, please feel free to contact me, (even in German)
>
>
> Ran
>
>
>
> --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Kiermayer" <KiermayerAB@...>
wrote:
>> Hello Ran,
>>
>> sounds good! Would you mind telling me who will be the representative for
>> the Bartitsu Club Germany? As far I know there are not too many people
>> practicing it here.
>>
>>
>> Servus,
>>
>> Alex
>>   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>   Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von bartitsuclubitalia
>>   Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 20:14
>>   An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>   Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu Club Europe
>>
>>
>>
>>   After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth of
>> its younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the
>> bartitsu.org website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu Club
>> France will join and we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
>>   Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and
>> exchange Instructors and research information, while promoting Bartitsu in
>> Europe, in collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
>>   We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to have
>> the "same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also with
>> the choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the centers and
>> make sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same
>> controlled "base" (Formation).
>>   Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du
>> Combat and traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and techniques.
>>
>>   Looking forward!
>>
>>   Ran
>>
>
>
>

Good to hear from you Alex! I see that the idea of Bartitsu Club Germany has
made already a good thing! (its purpose); if you manage to meet and collaborate
and include also other Bartitsukas from around Germany.
The center (regarding coordination is in Berlin) and I would like to hear from
you on my email address; ranarthurbraun@...
This is a non political idea! just collaboration of people with the same wish to
practice and promote Bartitsu, Therefore, if there are any other Germany based
members of the forum, please feel free to contact me, (even in German)


Ran



--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Kiermayer" <KiermayerAB@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Ran,
>
> sounds good! Would you mind telling me who will be the representative for
> the Bartitsu Club Germany? As far I know there are not too many people
> practicing it here.
>
>
> Servus,
>
> Alex
>   -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>   Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von bartitsuclubitalia
>   Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 20:14
>   An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>   Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu Club Europe
>
>
>
>   After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth of
> its younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the
> bartitsu.org website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu Club
> France will join and we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
>   Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and
> exchange Instructors and research information, while promoting Bartitsu in
> Europe, in collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
>   We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to have
> the "same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also with
> the choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the centers and
> make sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same
> controlled "base" (Formation).
>   Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du
> Combat and traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and techniques.
>
>   Looking forward!
>
>   Ran
>

Hi all,

and welcome to our new members.  Please feel free to ask questions, etc. - we're
here to serve.

There has been an awful lot of behind-the-scenes documentary activity over the
past month, including more filming (of re-enactment sequences, etc.), the
mammoth task of compiling a library of archival images to be featured in the
historical sections, more interviews coming in from various parts of the world,
and the ever more complex task of crafting the script.

I'm very grateful to my collaborators who have volunteered their time and
expertise towards this project, and am happy to report that we're making good
progress.  We're currently waiting on a couple of late additions; opportunities
that were too good to pass up, and which have been brought in to the production
schedule over the past couple of weeks.

We're currently anticipating a release of the documentary trailer around
Christmas to co-incide with the release of the new Sherlock Holmes movie.  The
documentary itself may become available (on DVD, with the options of
rent-on-demand or buy-on-demand instant download as well) as early as late
January.  My best guess is that it will be about an hour long, including
in-depth interviews, animations, archival pictures, re-enactment sequences and
neo-Bartitsu footage.

Onward and upward -

Cheers,

Tony

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von bartitsuclubitalia
Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. November 2009 20:14
An: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu Club Europe

 

After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth of its younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the bartitsu.org website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu Club France will join and we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and exchange Instructors and research information, while promoting Bartitsu in Europe, in collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to have the "same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also with the choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the centers and make sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same controlled "base" (Formation).
Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du Combat and traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and techniques.

Looking forward!

Ran

--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ggrasso06@... wrote:
>
> this method was very popular with catch wrestlers and taught by hek
> kenney/armond seidler both wrestlers that taught their brand of combat
wrestling
> to the air force- by the way for the record, i am not anti-bartitsu, i am
> pro  bartitsu but i have my own opinions. i hope that this stuff is applicable
> to  bartitsu concepets [IF NOT FEEL FREE TO DELETE]as in all-in wresting
> you are  trying to knee or nut kick your man and he goes for a single leg lift
>  takedown--the following can be applied--regards and my RESPECT TO
> ALL--RALPH  G
>  also when practising old time jiu jitsu for street combat, try to wear
civilian clothes and practice on wood floor as in video clip--it replicates hard
dirt/sidewalk, floors, street and toughens you up---you must use old time break
falling methods as well
>
> In a message dated 11/11/2009 12:04:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> ggrasso06@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> _Click here: YouTube - old  jiu jitsu-catch wrestling throwing into direct
> submission/take out_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a7wH6rrqaA)   --PLEASE
> NOTE!you must be very careful not to keep the choke on as you throw  unless
> in a actual contest or actual h2h as you can break his neck or crash  his
> head as you sutemi and then choke---a good skill for BARTITSUKAS AND DDRL
> PRACTITIONERS-
>

greetings,


I was looking through some stuff that I had downloaded the other day and I
found an interesting illustration of apparently Charlemont demoing cane skills.
I thought this was the book , but turns out its just this pic , not sure if it
was posted before ( I don't think it was) Might be of some interest.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bartitsu_Forum/photos/album/1014402943/pic/1217887\
275/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Enjoy Josh

On 10 Nov 2009, at 21:20 (10/11), lone_wolf_92001 wrote:

>
>
> --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, James <james@...> wrote:
>
>> Are these the drills you begin with Tony? How about for brand new beginners?
>
> I first give brand new beginners a simple set of combat biomechanics
exercises, focussing on the fundamentals of alignment (posture and balance),
distance (measure) and adaptability.  From there we can move into any of the
basic techniques I listed earlier, or any of the others, of course.  In seminars
I generally start with Allanson-Winn's boxing stance, then the left lead-off and
basic counters, then into the coup de pied bas and chasse bas kicks and
counters.

Very similar to me. I normally work some punches, then kicks, then grips.

I had good results with teaching 3-4 basic ideas (Straight punching, kicking
then punching, using the opponents arm and head as a lever to affect the
balance) and then asking them to apply this to different situations and ranges.
I find it is good to give a basic level of skill, or a common vocabulary, and
then to ask the students to experiment and present back what they have found.
It's amazing how many times they come up with exactly the right answer, or with
something really very practical.

--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, James <james@...> wrote:

> Are these the drills you begin with Tony? How about for brand new beginners?

I first give brand new beginners a simple set of combat biomechanics exercises,
focussing on the fundamentals of alignment (posture and balance), distance
(measure) and adaptability.  From there we can move into any of the basic
techniques I listed earlier, or any of the others, of course.  In seminars I
generally start with Allanson-Winn's boxing stance, then the left lead-off and
basic counters, then into the coup de pied bas and chasse bas kicks and
counters.

If they're total noobs then I always develop the biomech exercises into falling
drills, similarly leading into the fundamental side and back breakfalls, etc.
before introducing any of the takedowns.

> I think we need to be careful to say that we are talking about historical
arts, which are separate from their current incarnations.

I agree.  It's easy for us to take that for granted, but it could well be
confusing to people who aren't used to thinking in terms of WMA revival, etc.

> Of course that also means that there will be no 'Pure' neo-bartitsu. Just
Tony's style, Chris's style etc.

The idea of individualism has always been built in to the neo-Bartitsu scheme.
Now we're starting to figure out how that works in practice.

Cheers

Tony

We agree, on all that you pointed out; as both of us  already had the chance to
talk about it in details, also outside the Forum.
It is just a way to be united in the Idea and the understanding that Bartitsu is
above all a process and as such it is better to experience it, together.
We also use the name Club, in order to avoid politics and invite collaboration.
Anachronism is what makes it all special and adds to its whole cultural
background, rather than another Martial Art.
The Documentary we are working on is done with the same spirit; Culture,
History, Martial Art, Mystery........

--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Tony Wolf <lone_wolf_9@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Ran,
>
> thanks for the update on your plans for Bartitsu in Europe.  The enthusiasm is
obviously building.
>
> Just to clarify, this email list is as close to a "Bartitsu International" as
we get, and it's an informal association rather than a governing body.  A long
time ago, we made the decision not to politicise the Bartitsu revival in any
sense;  we don't own this stuff, only our own interpretations of it.  On that
basis, anyone is free to do whatever they like with it, and the most the rest of
us can do is to endorse a particular approach, or not.
>
> I think I understand what you mean about choice of guest instructors; just
noting that while collaboration between various clubs in Europe (and elsewhere)
is a good thing, it's also very early in the Bartitsu revival to be speaking in
terms of "having the same controlled base or formation."  If an individual club
wanted to bring in a particular instructor or group of instructors, that's fine,
but we need to be aware that such choices can easily appear to be political, and
we've successfully avoided political problems for the past seven years.
>
> Likewise, our informal consensus in the past has been that while anyone can
create a neo-Bartitsu training programme, it really only makes sense to refer to
what you're doing as "Bartitsu" if it includes the canonical curriculum and
extends into the type of sources presented in the second volume of the
Compendium.  Casting the net too far beyond that tends to re-invent the MMA or
Jeet Kune Do wheels.  IMO that approach is likely to produce perfectly good
training methods, but again, JKD and MMA already exist, so we could save a lot
of time and effort simply by training in those styles.  Thus, even neo-Bartitsu
is something of a deliberate anachronism.
>
> At the point where we move outside of the early 20th century sources and start
to include skills that B-W didn't even touch on, IMO what we're doing changes
from Bartitsu into something else.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tony
>
> To: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> From: ranarthurbraun@...
> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:13:40 +0000
> Subject: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu Club Europe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth of
its younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the bartitsu.org
website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu Club France will join and
we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
>
> Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and exchange
Instructors and research information, while promoting Bartitsu in Europe, in
collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
>
> We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to have the
"same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also with the
choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the centers and make
sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same controlled 
"base" (Formation).
>
> Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du Combat
and traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and techniques.
>
>
>
> Looking forward!
>
>
>
> Ran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
> http://windows.microsoft.com/shop
>

On 10 Nov 2009, at 19:24 (10/11), lone_wolf_92001 wrote:

>
>
> --- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Amendola <chris.amendola@...>
wrote:
>>
>> Tony,
>>
>> Firstly, one more time let me say "nice work" regarding the efforts
>> towards completing the Bartitsu documentary, I am very excited to have it
>> available as an explanatory/educational tool. Since I simply cannot find the
>> motivation to complete my "Bartitsu and the Other Martial Arts of Sherlock
>> Holmes" slideshow/talk (hard drive failure in April did me in), I am
>> thinking about hosting some kind of small scale viewing event here in
>> Houston.
>
> hard-drive failures can be extremely disheartening.  An unexpected system
shutdown last night managed to lose me basically all of yesterday's work on the
script.  Heavy sigh ...

Incremental back-ups are the way to go guys. I use Time Machine on my mac, but I
hear good things about Karen's Replicator and Acronis on the PC

>
>> What I am concerned about falling through the cracks a bit in the growth of
>> Bartitsu, is the "functional" elements of practicing a Martial System,
>> arising from more mundane training methods. The methods that would be
>> required to bootstrap either complete novices or novices to one aspect of
>> the Bartitsu sub-systems e.g. "punching" for a grapplers- the "fundamentals"
>> if you will.
>
> My approach looks at the biomechanics as the fundamentals, in the first
instance.  After that, techniques can be taught and drilled as examples of those
fundamental mechanics in action.
>
> The technical chapters of the BCII are filled with basic techniques; simple
breakfalls, the correct fighting stance for Allanson-Winn's boxing, how to
execute a bayonet thrust with the cane, etc.  These technical fundamentals are
all very clearly explained and illustrated, with drills, etc.

Are these the drills you begin with Tony? How about for brand new beginners?


>
> To follow your example of punching for grapplers, once the grappler
appreciates the mechanical fundamentals of alignment and balance, distance,
etc., that are common to both grappling and punching, they can then confidently
start to drill the basic punches.
>
>> Relatedly I think the Bartitsu community may want to work a bit towards some
>> kind of consensus regarding a more specific relationship between
>> contributing systems and the "Bartitsu system". I make this suggestion for
>> three reasons. First both Savate and Jiujitsu have active, modern day
>> proponents, whom have a right to "ownership" of their systems, we need to
>> watch how we relate to those folks, and what we imply we know about those
>> systems.
>
> Do you think we should be more explicit about the savate and jiujitsu content
of Bartitsu drawing from a selection of very early 20th century sources?
>

I think we need to be careful to say that we are talking about historical arts,
which are separate from their current incarnations.


>> Secondly, if we are embracing the idea of pragmatic eclecticism,
>> then I think by default we are saying that "pure" {any system} isn't the
>> final answer, and at some point technically Bartitsu-ka are going to deviate
>> from the "pure" ways. We have Bartitsu kicking, Bartitsu punching, Bartitsu
>> Stickwork etc.
>
> Yes, though I think that's already covered by the normal deviation from
textbook technique to account for individual physiques and "what works" in the
heat of the moment.

Of course that also means that there will be no 'Pure' neo-bartitsu. Just Tony's
style, Chris's style etc.

Loving this discussion BTW guys :)

--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Amendola <chris.amendola@...>
wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
> Firstly, one more time let me say "nice work" regarding the efforts
> towards completing the Bartitsu documentary, I am very excited to have it
> available as an explanatory/educational tool. Since I simply cannot find the
> motivation to complete my "Bartitsu and the Other Martial Arts of Sherlock
> Holmes" slideshow/talk (hard drive failure in April did me in), I am
> thinking about hosting some kind of small scale viewing event here in
> Houston.

hard-drive failures can be extremely disheartening.  An unexpected system
shutdown last night managed to lose me basically all of yesterday's work on the
script.  Heavy sigh ...

> What I am concerned about falling through the cracks a bit in the growth of
> Bartitsu, is the "functional" elements of practicing a Martial System,
> arising from more mundane training methods. The methods that would be
> required to bootstrap either complete novices or novices to one aspect of
> the Bartitsu sub-systems e.g. "punching" for a grapplers- the "fundamentals"
> if you will.

My approach looks at the biomechanics as the fundamentals, in the first
instance.  After that, techniques can be taught and drilled as examples of those
fundamental mechanics in action.

The technical chapters of the BCII are filled with basic techniques; simple
breakfalls, the correct fighting stance for Allanson-Winn's boxing, how to
execute a bayonet thrust with the cane, etc.  These technical fundamentals are
all very clearly explained and illustrated, with drills, etc.

To follow your example of punching for grapplers, once the grappler appreciates
the mechanical fundamentals of alignment and balance, distance, etc., that are
common to both grappling and punching, they can then confidently start to drill
the basic punches.

> Relatedly I think the Bartitsu community may want to work a bit towards some
> kind of consensus regarding a more specific relationship between
> contributing systems and the "Bartitsu system". I make this suggestion for
> three reasons. First both Savate and Jiujitsu have active, modern day
> proponents, whom have a right to "ownership" of their systems, we need to
> watch how we relate to those folks, and what we imply we know about those
> systems.

Do you think we should be more explicit about the savate and jiujitsu content of
Bartitsu drawing from a selection of very early 20th century sources?

>Secondly, if we are embracing the idea of pragmatic eclecticism,
> then I think by default we are saying that "pure" {any system} isn't the
> final answer, and at some point technically Bartitsu-ka are going to deviate
> from the "pure" ways. We have Bartitsu kicking, Bartitsu punching, Bartitsu
> Stickwork etc.

Yes, though I think that's already covered by the normal deviation from textbook
technique to account for individual physiques and "what works" in the heat of
the moment.

> Thirdly, by getting more specific regarding the
> Bartitsu-relevant portions of the contributing systems, we can more easily
> have an approach for starting from "square one" for absolute beginners, or
> for novices to one of the core areas of "Bartitsu".

Can you clarify what seems to be missing, or confusing re. starting from square
one?

Cheers,

Tony

After the birth of Bartitsu Club Italia, we are happy with the birth of its
younger brother, Bartitsu Club Russia. (As you can see on the bartitsu.org
website), With in the next couple of weeks, Bartitsu Club France will join and
we aim to have also Bartitsu Club Germany.
Therefore, to have Italy, Russia, France and Germany collaborate and exchange
Instructors and research information, while promoting Bartitsu in Europe, in
collaboration with the "mother"; Bartitsu International.
We aim for an exchange of information but also to have a chance to have the
"same" formation regarding Bartitsu, therefore, being united also with the
choice of guest instructors, who can later tour between the centers and make
sure that the Canonical Bartitsu and Neo Bartitsu have the same controlled 
"base" (Formation).
Sure! we hope to also invite specialists in Savate, Jiujitsu, Cane du Combat and
traditional Boxing, to improve the "added" skills and techniques.

Looking forward!


Ran

Hi Thomas,

the Wiki page mentions that Taylor's monographs were first published in 1905 and
1911, after the Bartitsu Club years.  On that basis I doubt that there was any
direct influence.

Barton-Wright's writings on leverage, anatomy and efficient movement (in his
1899 "How to Pose as a Strong Man" article and elsewhere) are reminiscent of
some of the Taylor-influenced Russian studies on biomechanics dating back to the
1920s.  Again, that was probably co-incidental, and certainly, European writers
on self defence had a long history of applying scientific methods to their work,
far pre-dating both Bartitsu and Taylorism.

Cheers,

Tony

--- In Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com, thomas strange <jacktheblack4444@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Taylorism is a scientific approach to management that was very popular in
Barton Wrights time.  This movement was ubiquitous and touched multiple aspects
of society and was a bit of a zeitgeist for the time.  Here is a link to the
wikipedia page on it.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management
>
> The thing that got me thinking of the connection was the approach he takes to
self defense in a straight forward scientific method.  The problem of course is
this could be just a coincidence or tertiary effects of Taylorism being a kind
of buzz word of the time.  (Like saying JKD was "thinking outside the box")
>
> Yours in Service
>
> Thomas Strange
>
> "Belabor them as you will!"

Taylorism is a scientific approach to management that was very popular in Barton Wrights time.  This movement was ubiquitous and touched multiple aspects of society and was a bit of a zeitgeist for the time.  Here is a link to the wikipedia page on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management The thing that got me thinking of the connection was the approach he takes to self defense in a straight forward scientific method.  The problem of course is this could be just a coincidence or tertiary effects of Taylorism being a kind of buzz word of the time.  (Like saying JKD was "thinking outside the box") Yours in Service Thomas Strange "Belabor them as you will!" --- On Tue, 11/10/09, gallowglassacad@... <gallowglassacad@...> wrote: From: gallowglassacad@... <gallowglassacad@...> Subject: Re: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu and taylorism To: Bartitsu_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 11:33 AM   I don't know the Talorism movement.  Can you tell us more about it?   Allen -----Original Message----- From: thomas strange <jacktheblack4444@ yahoo.com> To: Bartitsu_Forum@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 10:00 am Subject: [Bartitsu_Forum] Bartitsu and taylorism   Greetings all   In my research I have been finding some parallels (in spirit not practice) between Bartitsu and the Talorism movement.  Does anyone know if Barton Wright was influenced by Talorism?  At this point I think it is just such a large movement that it spread a lot of influence over people with or without their even knowing it, but if someone knows differently I would be obliged for some insight. Yours in Service Thomas Strange "Belabor them as you will!"

james said---However the lcosest link is probably Fairbairn-era combatives,
which draws upon a very very similar skill base.----i feel this as well, i see
fairbairn's method as a life study---after studying from my instructors i feel
the journey is now beginning, i get tons of stuff every year when i thought all
the research was ended---an example, interviewing a gent that was in the c.i.c
and o.s.s.---we have found out that fairbairn had a version of kote-gaishi that
he preferred to teach that he diod not show in "get tough " or" defendu"----