AEyouthpolicy : Messages : 52-63 of 64

#52

From: "Carole Goranson" <JennaMacPherson@...>
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:45 pm
Subject: Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

flb82

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Greetings all,

sorry for the delay, but finally here are the notes from the youth policy

meeting at gold chain event. i was happy to see some new faces and meet some

new people and we were honoured by the presence of Their Royal Highnesses

and Sir Tristan, the Earl Marshal. I think with the support we have been

getting throughout the kingdom AEthelmearc will have one of the finest youth

programs in no time at all.

Copies of these notes will alos be posted to the Youth Combat website.



1. 16+ rattan to be implemented at events only to begin with, rather than at

every local practice.



     This will give us an opportunity to see how many 16-17's are interested

as well as establishing the new style of marshaling before the practice in

wide spread. it was discussed that this might be a more practical way to

approach the new program to establish conventions in the training rather

than 125 local groups individually saying "woohoo! lets fight"



2. It was agreed that we understand that some of the youth are being trained

"off the SCA radar" by their parents or adult friends. when the 16+ program

is underway we would like it to be understood that the people training in

rattan are honour bound not to go back to the local groups and practice with

the PVC.



      It was brought up that not only is the calibration different between

the forms but that also the muscle motion and memory are very different and

that it would be unwise to mix the forms. we have had some first hand

reports of young people who have face some serious injuries by doing so.

that is not to say that some young people are able to do it quite well, but

to begin with we choose to err on the side of caution.



3. It was discussed that training the 16+ group would have to be a

cooperative effort between youth warranted marshals and adult heavy

warranted marshals. Also that we will need to include a roster of rattan

fighters in each region that are approved to train/spar with the young

people that dont technically need to be warranted in either venue or be

required to have the background check.



     Strangely, at this point sir aengus turned to speak to the gentle to his

left and while he was looking the other way his hand slowly raised itself up

into the air and thus he volunteered to be in charge of this section of the

program :0)



4. a second meeting has been scheduled for the storming the castle even tin

rhydderich hael on saturday 11/15.



5. i have contacted the autocrat of college of 3 ravens event to request a

full day track of classes and practice sessions for the youth martial

academy. this will be our first chance to have an actual training session

for the 16+ with rattan. so if anyone has ideas for classes in boffer or

youth rapier please start formulating it into a class and let me know what

you're thinking. i will post details from the autocrat when i have them.



6. a topic that was discussed for the youth combat program as a whole is the

significance of division 2 fighters. it has often been noted that in

division 1 the kids are just joyful and happy to be swinging a stick with

permission! in division 3 there is much talk of calibration and

manners...one is too high the other too low. The way i see it the obvious

time for "intervention" is division 2. the kids here still have the joy but

are becoming bigger and stronger and yes virginia, just a little more

willful. another significant delema in division 2 is that this is the age

for growth spurts. the height/weight range between the kids is extremely

spread out in this group. On the positive side though they are also the most

adaptable to fighting up to 3 or fighting down to 1. it is also where most

kids decide why they are in the program and if they want to stay in and go

on to adult heavy.



      So basically we should begin some new discussion on how to make the

most of our division 2. please feel free to post you ideas, concerns,

questions, comments, observations.



finally thank to all who have participated in this process and all the

autocrats who have made time and space for us. i hope to see many of you at

storming the castle.



thank you for your support :0)



i do remain

jenna







Carole Goranson (THL Jenna MacPherson of Lion's Tower)

Amherst, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, �thelmearc)



"The problems of the world can't be solved in meters." - Arlo Guthrie

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#53

From: OTRobin@...
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:27 am
Subject: Re: Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

ladynivah

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Send Email

Jenna,

This looks good except one area confuses me.

If the only rattan experience the older kids who want to have will be at events, what happens the rest of the time when they are no longer allowed to go to a practice and fight boffer? It sounds like this will eliminate 16+ rattan fighters from practicing under the SCA rules once they switch, for now, and be encouraging more off the radar practicing.

As time passes and more events are held that will include the 16+ component, I hope participation spreads quickly.

My other area of confusion is that many of the older kids already fighting rattan outside of SCA sanctions activities have been able to go back to boffer with little or no difficulty. If level 3 boffer weapons are made to mimic rattan in bulk, weight and balance, the idea that anything more than a minimum or zero difference in calibration and muscle memory does not fit. Using my training in activity analysis, practicing is what will build muscle and motion memory. Anyone who has ever had an injury that requires physical or occupational therapy has learned that you can't fake it or fool the therapist when you have not done the exercises for your home program. The rhythm and fluid motion is not present nor observed when you do not practice. This is very similar to the notion that putting on armor without any stretching or minimal muscle warming up then going full speed, makes you invincible to injury.

I agree with erring on the side of caution. It is pretty easy to pick out the fighters who practice regularly and am always very glad to see more and heavier armor than SCA minimums require, for any person.

I would suggest two topics for classes at C3R. One for adults fighters who wish to be included in the training process of 16+ rattan. Second, would be for all marshals who wish to participate in the 16+ rattan program to clearly outline policy, learn some approved methods to include (standardization) and gather ideas to consider that would include teaching the 16+ rattan how to handle some typical conflicts - like not taking shots.

I will gladly make an outline to post for purposes of fine tuning with suggestions, if anyone is interested.

Nivah

In a message dated 11/14/2008 7:45:51 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time, JennaMacPherson@... writes:

Greetings all,
sorry for the delay, but finally here are the notes from the youth policy
meeting at gold chain event. i was happy to see some new faces and meet some
new people and we were honoured by the presence of Their Royal Highnesses
and Sir Tristan, the Earl Marshal. I think with the support we have been
getting throughout the kingdom AEthelmearc will have one of the finest youth
programs in no time at all.
Copies of these notes will alos be posted to the Youth Combat website.

1. 16+ rattan to be implemented at events only to begin with, rather than at
every local practice.

This will give us an opportunity to see how many 16-17's are interested
as well as establishing the new style of marshaling before the practice in
wide spread. it was discussed that this might be a more practical way to
approach the new program to establish conventions in the training rather
than 125 local groups individually saying "woohoo! lets fight"

2. It was agreed that we understand that some of the youth are being trained
"off the SCA radar" by their parents or adult friends. when the 16+ program
is underway we would like it to be understood that the people training in
rattan are honour bound not to go back to the local groups and practice with
the PVC.

It was brought up that not only is the calibration different between
the forms but that also the muscle motion and memory are very different and
that it would be unwise to mix the forms. we have had some first hand
reports of young people who have face some serious injuries by doing so.
that is not to say that some young people are able to do it quite well, but
to begin with we choose to err on the side of caution.

3. It was discussed that training the 16+ group would have to be a
cooperative effort between youth warranted marshals and adult heavy
warranted marshals. Also that we will need to include a roster of rattan
fighters in each region that are approved to train/spar with the young
people that dont technically need to be warranted in either venue or be
required to have the background check.

Strangely, at this point sir aengus turned to speak to the gentle to his
left and while he was looking the other way his hand slowly raised itself up
into the air and thus he volunteered to be in charge of this section of the
program :0)

4. a second meeting has been scheduled for the storming the castle even tin
rhydderich hael on saturday 11/15.

5. i have contacted the autocrat of college of 3 ravens event to request a
full day track of classes and practice sessions for the youth martial
academy. this will be our first chance to have an actual training session
for the 16+ with rattan. so if anyone has ideas for classes in boffer or
youth rapier please start formulating it into a class and let me know what
you're thinking. i will post details from the autocrat when i have them.

6. a topic that was discussed for the youth combat program as a whole is the
significance of division 2 fighters. it has often been noted that in
division 1 the kids are just joyful and happy to be swinging a stick with
permission! in division 3 there is much talk of calibration and
manners...one is too high the other too low. The way i see it the obvious
time for "intervention" is division 2. the kids here still have the joy but
are becoming bigger and stronger and yes virginia, just a little more
willful. another significant delema in division 2 is that this is the age
for growth spurts. the height/weight range between the kids is extremely
spread out in this group. On the positive side though they are also the most
adaptable to fighting up to 3 or fighting down to 1. it is also where most
kids decide why they are in the program and if they want to stay in and go
on to adult heavy.

So basically we should begin some new discussion on how to make the
most of our division 2. please feel free to post you ideas, concerns,
questions, comments, observations.

finally thank to all who have participated in this process and all the
autocrats who have made time and space for us. i hope to see many of you at
storming the castle.

thank you for your support :0)

i do remain
jenna

Carole Goranson (THL Jenna MacPherson of Lion's Tower)
Amherst, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, �thelmearc)

"The problems of the world can't be solved in meters." - Arlo Guthrie

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#54

From: "Yvianne" <yvianne@...>
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:56 pm
Subject: Re: Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

maitresse_yv...

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I'm not trying to be rude or flippant about this. I tried for over an hour to phrase this better, but I don't seem to be able to without changing the kind of answer I think we need at this point.

If rattan and boffer are so similar that youth can switch back and forth without any problems, why does the kingdom need a youth rattan program at all?

It just seems that trying to define the specifics of a new policy without ever really answering this basic question first keeps bringing us back to the question. Perhaps if we answer the question, we would have a specific goal and be able to draft policy around that.

Yvianne

----- Original Message -----

From: OTRobin@...

To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:27 AM

Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

Jenna,

This looks good except one area confuses me.

If the only rattan experience the older kids who want to have will be at events, what happens the rest of the time when they are no longer allowed to go to a practice and fight boffer? It sounds like this will eliminate 16+ rattan fighters from practicing under the SCA rules once they switch, for now, and be encouraging more off the radar practicing.

As time passes and more events are held that will include the 16+ component, I hope participation spreads quickly.

My other area of confusion is that many of the older kids already fighting rattan outside of SCA sanctions activities have been able to go back to boffer with little or no difficulty. If level 3 boffer weapons are made to mimic rattan in bulk, weight and balance, the idea that anything more than a minimum or zero difference in calibration and muscle memory does not fit. Using my training in activity analysis, practicing is what will build muscle and motion memory. Anyone who has ever had an injury that requires physical or occupational therapy has learned that you can't fake it or fool the therapist when you have not done the exercises for your home program. The rhythm and fluid motion is not present nor observed when you do not practice. This is very similar to the notion that putting on armor without any stretching or minimal muscle warming up then going full speed, makes you invincible to injury.

I agree with erring on the side of caution. It is pretty easy to pick out the fighters who practice regularly and am always very glad to see more and heavier armor than SCA minimums require, for any person.

I would suggest two topics for classes at C3R. One for adults fighters who wish to be included in the training process of 16+ rattan. Second, would be for all marshals who wish to participate in the 16+ rattan program to clearly outline policy, learn some approved methods to include (standardization) and gather ideas to consider that would include teaching the 16+ rattan how to handle some typical conflicts - like not taking shots.

I will gladly make an outline to post for purposes of fine tuning with suggestions, if anyone is interested.

Nivah

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#56

From: Troy Headland <battalion73@...>
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:06 pm
Subject: Re: Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

battalion73

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Unfortunately due to a family issue I was unable to attend the event and thus this meeting. This exact issue is the reason I was against there being another division being added to the youth fighting. Adding a new division isn't solving anything. it is just causing more problems. So rather than causing all this chaos it would seem the best path is what I suggested from the start. Allow the option to Youths at age 16+ to move into the adult heavy fighting. No one is forcing them to do it. This would be a decision that they and their parents would come to together. They would be able to practice at regular practicews without needing background checks(reducing costs to have these done) They would be able to participate in Tourneys. No melees until 18 is what I would suggest as there is a higher risk of injury in the melees. Most of the Kingdoms of the Known World do this. We have 2 shining examples of people who came up in just such a fashion in our Kingdom right now that I know of. Her Grace, Tessa the Huntress and His Excellency, Sir Alonzio of the Peacemakers. Making this a choice for those teens who wish to advance can only help to bolster activity and safety in the long run. We will put a 16 year old behind the wheel of a car so whats the big deal about putting them in a helmet and armor and aiming them at a foe?

Thats just how I feel.

As Always, In Service

Gabriel

--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Yvianne <yvianne@...> wrote:

From: Yvianne <yvianne@...>
Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)
To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 12:56 PM

I'm not trying to be rude or flippant about this. I tried for over an hour to phrase this better, but I don't seem to be able to without changing the kind of answer I think we need at this point.

If rattan and boffer are so similar that youth can switch back and forth without any problems, why does the kingdom need a youth rattan program at all?

It just seems that trying to define the specifics of a new policy without ever really answering this basic question first keeps bringing us back to the question. Perhaps if we answer the question, we would have a specific goal and be able to draft policy around that.

Yvianne

----- Original Message -----

From: OTRobin@aol. com

To: AEyouthpolicy@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:27 AM

Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

Jenna,

This looks good except one area confuses me.

If the only rattan experience the older kids who want to have will be at events, what happens the rest of the time when they are no longer allowed to go to a practice and fight boffer? It sounds like this will eliminate 16+ rattan fighters from practicing under the SCA rules once they switch, for now, and be encouraging more off the radar practicing.

As time passes and more events are held that will include the 16+ component, I hope participation spreads quickly.

My other area of confusion is that many of the older kids already fighting rattan outside of SCA sanctions activities have been able to go back to boffer with little or no difficulty. If level 3 boffer weapons are made to mimic rattan in bulk, weight and balance, the idea that anything more than a minimum or zero difference in calibration and muscle memory does not fit. Using my training in activity analysis, practicing is what will build muscle and motion memory. Anyone who has ever had an injury that requires physical or occupational therapy has learned that you can't fake it or fool the therapist when you have not done the exercises for your home program. The rhythm and fluid motion is not present nor observed when you do not practice. This is very similar to the notion that putting on armor without any stretching or minimal muscle warming up then going full speed, makes you invincible to injury.

I agree with erring on the side of caution. It is pretty easy to pick out the fighters who practice regularly and am always very glad to see more and heavier armor than SCA minimums require, for any person.

I would suggest two topics for classes at C3R. One for adults fighters who wish to be included in the training process of 16+ rattan. Second, would be for all marshals who wish to participate in the 16+ rattan program to clearly outline policy, learn some approved methods to include (standardization) and gather ideas to consider that would include teaching the 16+ rattan how to handle some typical conflicts - like not taking shots.

I will gladly make an outline to post for purposes of fine tuning with suggestions, if anyone is interested.

Nivah

Reply | Forward

#58

From: "Carole Goranson" <JennaMacPherson@...>
Date: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:42 am
Subject: Re: Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

flb82

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Send Email

gabriel,

thank you for your comments. i hope you will be able to attend some of the

future meetings and practices as they are scheduled.



to respond to some of your concerns... the basic reason that we do not lower

the adult participation age to 16 as in other kingdoms at this point in time

is simply that we have decided to go another way. in part we are trying to

consider those 16/adult fighters and their ability to participate at

pennsic. in the wide world of youth combat we are still (IMHO) relatively

inexperienced. our youth fighters have always had problems getting enough

people in one place to have tourneys or practices.  i don't think we should

rush into a 16/adult policy and since i have been asked to explore this

venue i have to assume that my superiors feel the same way for the moment.



you are also that her grace tessa and his excellency sir alonzio are fine

examples of what can result from the 16/adult policy. i am fortunate to have

them both as advisers on this project. I spent some time at pennsic

discussing the issue with her grace. also at pennsic sir alonzio taught a

wonderful melee class to the division 3 group. we are currently working on

his youth combat marshal warrant.



all of this is not to say that we are disregarding the idea of 16/adult

entirely. its still a possibility and may not be too far in the future. but

for now the kingdom has decided to pursue the prospects of the program

though the experimental weapons rules. we can't do anything until we see who

wants what and if we can make it work for the betterment of the kingdom as a

whole.





jenna





Carole Goranson (THL Jenna MacPherson of Lion's Tower)

Amherst, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, �thelmearc)



"The problems of the world can't be solved in meters." - Arlo Guthrie











>From: Troy Headland <battalion73@...>

>Reply-To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com

>To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:06:25 -0800 (PST)

>

>Unfortunately due to a family issue I was unable to attend the event and

>thus this meeting.  This exact issue is the reason I was against there

>being another division being added to the youth fighting.  Adding a new

>division isn't solving anything.  it is just causing more problems.  So

>rather than causing all this chaos it would seem the best path is what I

>suggested from the start.  Allow the option to Youths at age 16+ to move

>into the adult heavy fighting.  No one is forcing them to do it.  This

>would be a decision that they and their parents would come to together.

>They would be able to practice at regular practicews without needing

>background checks(reducing costs to have these done)  They would be able to

>participate in Tourneys.  No melees until 18 is what I would suggest as

>there is a higher risk of injury in the melees.  Most of the Kingdoms of

>the Known World do this.  We have 2 shining examples of people who came up

>in just such

>  a fashion in our Kingdom right now that I know of.  Her Grace, Tessa the

>Huntress and His Excellency, Sir Alonzio of the Peacemakers.  Making this a

>choice for those teens who wish to advance can only help to bolster

>activity and safety in the long run.  We will put a 16 year old behind the

>wheel of a car so whats the big deal about putting them in a helmet and

>armor and aiming them at a foe?

>

>Thats just how I feel.

>

>As Always, In Service

>

>Gabriel

>

>--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Yvianne <yvianne@...> wrote:

>

>From: Yvianne <yvianne@...>

>Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

>To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com

>Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 12:56 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>I'm not trying to be rude or flippant about this. I tried for over an hour

>to phrase this better, but I don't seem to be able to without changing the

>kind of answer I think we need at this point.

>

>If rattan and boffer are so similar that youth can switch back and forth

>without any problems, why does the kingdom need a youth rattan program at

>all?

>

>It just seems that trying to define the specifics of a new policy without

>ever really answering this basic question first keeps bringing us back to

>the question. Perhaps if we answer the question, we would have a specific

>goal and be able to draft policy around that.

>

>Yvianne

>

>----- Original Message -----

>

>From: OTRobin@aol. com

>To: AEyouthpolicy@ yahoogroups. com

>Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:27 AM

>Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

>

>

>Jenna,

>

>This looks good except one area confuses me.

>If the only rattan experience the older kids who want to have will be at

>events, what happens the rest of the time when they are no longer allowed

>to go to a  practice and fight boffer?  It sounds like this will eliminate

>16+ rattan fighters from practicing under the SCA rules once they switch,

>for now, and be encouraging more off the radar practicing.

>As time passes and more events are held that will include the 16+

>component, I hope participation spreads quickly. My other area of confusion

>is that many of the older kids already fighting rattan outside of SCA

>sanctions activities have been able to go back to boffer with little or no

>difficulty.  If level 3 boffer weapons are made to mimic rattan in bulk,

>weight and balance, the idea that anything more than a minimum or zero

>difference in calibration and muscle memory does not fit. Using my training

>in activity analysis, practicing is what will build muscle and motion

>memory. Anyone who has ever had an injury that requires physical or

>occupational therapy has learned that you can't fake it or fool the

>therapist when you have not done the exercises for your home program. The

>rhythm and fluid motion is not present nor observed when you do not

>practice.     This is very similar to the notion that putting on armor

>without any stretching or minimal muscle warming up then going full speed,

>makes you invincible to injury.

>

>I agree with erring on the side of caution.  It is pretty easy to pick out

>the fighters who practice regularly and am always very glad to see more and

>heavier armor than SCA minimums require, for any person.

>

>I would suggest two topics for classes at C3R. One for adults fighters who

>wish to be included in the training process of 16+ rattan. Second, would be

>for all marshals who wish to participate in the 16+ rattan program to

>clearly outline policy, learn some approved methods to include

>(standardization) and gather ideas to consider that would include teaching

>the 16+ rattan how to handle some typical conflicts - like not taking

>shots.

>I will gladly make an outline to post for purposes of fine tuning with

>suggestions, if anyone is interested.

>

>Nivah

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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#59

From: Sir Tristen Sexwulf <Tristen@...>
Date: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:04 am
Subject: Youth Combat vs 16+ Adult combat

barontristen

Offline

Send Email

Gabriel,

Thank you for your words.

However, lowering the age of adult heavy rattan is outside of the "youth combat" scope.

We, have and, are considering concepts such as...

Allow 16+ to authorize but not fight melee or at Pennsic.

Lower age to fight to 16 but keep age to authorize at age 18.

However, the current royals are "fundamentally opposed to allowing ages 16-17 to participate in adult combat/adult fencing"

Therefore we are working inside the confined of the youth combat system to develop youth rattan training. I have complete faith in Jenna that she will take the opinions of others, weigh the pros & cons, and with safety in mind will develop a successful youth system that will entertain, educate, and enrich the youth of the SCA.

That said, with each new set of royals comes a new set of opinions, and desires, with regards to combat within AEthelmearc. Personally, I am a "what serves the majority and does not impede safety shall be tried" style of marshal, but I am oath bound to support the kings law. The Kings word is my Law and at this time the kings word is No.

Sir Tristen Sexwulf

Earl Marshal of �thelmearc

�Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus men efficio nihil.�

On Nov 14, 2008, at 8:42 PM, Carole Goranson wrote:

gabriel,
thank you for your comments. i hope you will be able to attend some of the
future meetings and practices as they are scheduled.

to respond to some of your concerns... the basic reason that we do not lower
the adult participation age to 16 as in other kingdoms at this point in time
is simply that we have decided to go another way. in part we are trying to
consider those 16/adult fighters and their ability to participate at
pennsic. in the wide world of youth combat we are still (IMHO) relatively
inexperienced. our youth fighters have always had problems getting enough
people in one place to have tourneys or practices. i don't think we should
rush into a 16/adult policy and since i have been asked to explore this
venue i have to assume that my superiors feel the same way for the moment.

you are also that her grace tessa and his excellency sir alonzio are fine
examples of what can result from the 16/adult policy. i am fortunate to have
them both as advisers on this project. I spent some time at pennsic
discussing the issue with her grace. also at pennsic sir alonzio taught a
wonderful melee class to the division 3 group. we are currently working on
his youth combat marshal warrant.

all of this is not to say that we are disregarding the idea of 16/adult
entirely. its still a possibility and may not be too far in the future. but
for now the kingdom has decided to pursue the prospects of the program
though the experimental weapons rules. we can't do anything until we see who
wants what and if we can make it work for the betterment of the kingdom as a
whole.

jenna

Carole Goranson (THL Jenna MacPherson of Lion's Tower)
Amherst, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, �thelmearc)

"The problems of the world can't be solved in meters." - Arlo Guthrie

From: Troy Headland <battalion73@...>
Reply-To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com
To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:06:25 -0800 (PST)

Unfortunately due to a family issue I was unable to attend the event and
thus this meeting. This exact issue is the reason I was against there
being another division being added to the youth fighting. Adding a new
division isn't solving anything. it is just causing more problems. So
rather than causing all this chaos it would seem the best path is what I
suggested from the start. Allow the option to Youths at age 16+ to move
into the adult heavy fighting. No one is forcing them to do it. This
would be a decision that they and their parents would come to together.
They would be able to practice at regular practicews without needing
background checks(reducing costs to have these done) They would be able to
participate in Tourneys. No melees until 18 is what I would suggest as
there is a higher risk of injury in the melees. Most of the Kingdoms of
the Known World do this. We have 2 shining examples of people who came up
in just such
a fashion in our Kingdom right now that I know of. Her Grace, Tessa the
Huntress and His Excellency, Sir Alonzio of the Peacemakers. Making this a
choice for those teens who wish to advance can only help to bolster
activity and safety in the long run. We will put a 16 year old behind the
wheel of a car so whats the big deal about putting them in a helmet and
armor and aiming them at a foe?

Thats just how I feel.

As Always, In Service

Gabriel

--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Yvianne <yvianne@...> wrote:

From: Yvianne <yvianne@...>
Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)
To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 12:56 PM

I'm not trying to be rude or flippant about this. I tried for over an hour
to phrase this better, but I don't seem to be able to without changing the
kind of answer I think we need at this point.

If rattan and boffer are so similar that youth can switch back and forth
without any problems, why does the kingdom need a youth rattan program at
all?

It just seems that trying to define the specifics of a new policy without
ever really answering this basic question first keeps bringing us back to
the question. Perhaps if we answer the question, we would have a specific
goal and be able to draft policy around that.

Yvianne

----- Original Message -----

From: OTRobin@aol. com
To: AEyouthpolicy@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

Jenna,

This looks good except one area confuses me.
If the only rattan experience the older kids who want to have will be at
events, what happens the rest of the time when they are no longer allowed
to go to a practice and fight boffer? It sounds like this will eliminate
16+ rattan fighters from practicing under the SCA rules once they switch,
for now, and be encouraging more off the radar practicing.
As time passes and more events are held that will include the 16+
component, I hope participation spreads quickly. My other area of confusion
is that many of the older kids already fighting rattan outside of SCA
sanctions activities have been able to go back to boffer with little or no
difficulty. If level 3 boffer weapons are made to mimic rattan in bulk,
weight and balance, the idea that anything more than a minimum or zero
difference in calibration and muscle memory does not fit. Using my training
in activity analysis, practicing is what will build muscle and motion
memory. Anyone who has ever had an injury that requires physical or
occupational therapy has learned that you can't fake it or fool the
therapist when you have not done the exercises for your home program. The
rhythm and fluid motion is not present nor observed when you do not
practice.     This is very similar to the notion that putting on armor
without any stretching or minimal muscle warming up then going full speed,
makes you invincible to injury.

I agree with erring on the side of caution. It is pretty easy to pick out
the fighters who practice regularly and am always very glad to see more and
heavier armor than SCA minimums require, for any person.

I would suggest two topics for classes at C3R. One for adults fighters who
wish to be included in the training process of 16+ rattan. Second, would be
for all marshals who wish to participate in the 16+ rattan program to
clearly outline policy, learn some approved methods to include
(standardization) and gather ideas to consider that would include teaching
the 16+ rattan how to handle some typical conflicts - like not taking
shots.
I will gladly make an outline to post for purposes of fine tuning with
suggestions, if anyone is interested.

Nivah

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#60

From: muirgens@...
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: Youth Combat vs 16+ Adult combat

muirgens

Offline

Send Email

Greetings all:

I apologize for just getting to these messages now. I am still catching up with my mail from the weekend away. Here are some thoughts, comments and corrections.

I am all for doing what we can to sustain and improve the youth fighting program in the kingdom (and I'm sure His Majesty would agree). We need to keep kids engaged and interested in the SCA and all of it's activities both for the vitality of the society and because it's better for their brains than Nintendo and Myspace (in my opinion). When we discussed this issue at Our Curia, there were some concerns that I don't think have been addressed. One was "do the kids want this?". I am not sure that has been answered yet.

I would, with all due respect to His Excellency Sir Tristan, like to clarify that His Majesty and I are not against a youth rattan program in general. We are against arming up a 16 year old and turning him or her out to fight any and all adult comers. His Majesty and I have concerns about the potential for harm to still physically and emotionally immature kids. And here I am talking about biology. Certainly there are physically large and "mature" kids out there. But size and apparent maturity does not mean that they are actually finished growing or that their brains are like an adult's yet. To borrow an example, yes we allow kids to drive at 16 but not past midnight and they pay a lot more for insurance (or their parents do) because they are generally easily distracted, more impulsive, and wreck more than adults. From the adult side, we all know fighters who are either over calibrated, easily pissed off, or just not good teachers. We all tend to steer even adult novices away from these folks in a subtle, often unspoken way, because we don't want the new folks to get turned off to fighting or the society. This to me points up the need to make sure that any adults who are part of the youth rattan program are patient, well controlled, and good teachers so that kids aren't at the receiving end of any of that.

None of this means that We are opposed to youth rattan (or fencing) across the board. We are willing to talk about and probably approve a well-thought-out plan to introduce rattan combat to older kids should we all get this organized before We step down. Most of you are probably unaware that what brought me into the SCA at the age of 8 or 9 was fencing. At that time (yes, the earth was still cooling and the written word was new technology) there was no age restriction for fencing so I started my SCA career fencing adults and really enjoyed it. It got me into the society and obviously it has stuck! So I certainly appreciate what youth rattan and/or fencing programs might bring to us all. However, they need to be well thought out and well implemented to protect the kids while allowing them to continue to learn and grow in the Society.

I hope that this conversation will continue both online and in live meetings. I would request that future meetings be scheduled and announced broadly through not only this list but the discussion board and "announce". I may have overlooked an announcement, but Christopher and I were not aware that a meeting was planned for the Castle event making it difficult to attend. I look forward to learning what was discussed at that meeting if it occurred.

Thank you all for being so concerned about the youth of the kingdom and about the future of the youth fighting programs. I feel confident that we will come to a policy that will be good for the kids, good for the adults who are interested, and good for the Kingdom.

Morgen
Regina

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#62

From: Sir Tristen Sexwulf <Tristen@...>
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:56 pm
Subject: Re: Youth Combat vs 16+ Adult combat

barontristen

Offline

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Your Majesty,

Please forgive me is I have spoken out of turn. From a very brief discussion with His Majesty at Crown Tourney, I was told that He was "fundamentally opposed to lowering the fighting age to 16" This conversation changed very rapidly to the youth combat discussion and then on to the topic of the new Kingdom Youth Marshal. If I misinterpreted His Majesties words or have misrepresented the Crown in any way I humbly beg your pardon and forgiveness.

An all things, I remain your servant,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf

Earl Marshal of �thelmearc

�Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus men efficio nihil.�

On Nov 20, 2008, at 11:13 AM, muirgens@... wrote:

Greetings all:

I apologize for just getting to these messages now. I am still catching up with my mail from the weekend away. Here are some thoughts, comments and corrections.

I am all for doing what we can to sustain and improve the youth fighting program in the kingdom (and I'm sure His Majesty would agree). We need to keep kids engaged and interested in the SCA and all of it's activities both for the vitality of the society and because it's better for their brains than Nintendo and Myspace (in my opinion). When we discussed this issue at Our Curia, there were some concerns that I don't think have been addressed. One was "do the kids want this?". I am not sure that has been answered yet.

I would, with all due respect to His Excellency Sir Tristan, like to clarify that His Majesty and I are not against a youth rattan program in general. We are against arming up a 16 year old and turning him or her out to fight any and all adult comers. His Majesty and I have concerns about the potential for harm to still physically and emotionally immature kids. And here I am talking about biology. Certainly there are physically large and "mature" kids out there. But size and apparent maturity does not mean that they are actually finished growing or that their brains are like an adult's yet. To borrow an example, yes we allow kids to drive at 16 but not past midnight and they pay a lot more for insurance (or their parents do) because they are generally easily distracted, more impulsive, and wreck more than adults. From the adult side, we all know fighters who are either over calibrated, easily pissed off, or just not good teachers. We all tend to steer even adult novices away from these folks in a subtle, often unspoken way, because we don't want the new folks to get turned off to fighting or the society. This to me points up the need to make sure that any adults who are part of the youth rattan program are patient, well controlled, and good teachers so that kids aren't at the receiving end of any of that.

None of this means that We are opposed to youth rattan (or fencing) across the board. We are willing to talk about and probably approve a well-thought-out plan to introduce rattan combat to older kids should we all get this organized before We step down. Most of you are probably unaware that what brought me into the SCA at the age of 8 or 9 was fencing. At that time (yes, the earth was still cooling and the written word was new technology) there was no age restriction for fencing so I started my SCA career fencing adults and really enjoyed it. It got me into the society and obviously it has stuck! So I certainly appreciate what youth rattan and/or fencing programs might bring to us all. However, they need to be well thought out and well implemented to protect the kids while allowing them to continue to learn and grow in the Society.

I hope that this conversation will continue both online and in live meetings. I would request that future meetings be scheduled and announced broadly through not only this list but the discussion board and "announce". I may have overlooked an announcement, but Christopher and I were not aware that a meeting was planned for the Castle event making it difficult to attend. I look forward to learning what was discussed at that meeting if it occurred.

Thank you all for being so concerned about the youth of the kingdom and about the future of the youth fighting programs. I feel confident that we will come to a policy that will be good for the kids, good for the adults who are interested, and good for the Kingdom.

Morgen
Regina

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#63

From: muirgens@...
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:56 pm
Subject: Re: Youth Combat vs 16+ Adult combat

muirgens

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Not a problem or a worry, Tristen. I think at first blush both of us were "agin' it" (and still don't want to see 16 year olds out on the melee field at Pennsic) but with the plan morphing into how we can allow rattan safely for the older youth combattants, we are interested in seeing this work in the right way.

I'm also glad to hear that there are definitely kids out there who are interested in doing this. I think if we can make it fun, useful and safe, many more will be intersted as well.

Thanks again, everyone, for continuing to discuss this!

morgen

-----Original Message-----
From: Sir Tristen Sexwulf <Tristen@...>
To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Youth Combat vs 16+ Adult combat

Your Majesty,

An all things, I remain your servant,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf

Earl Marshal of Æthelmearc

“Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus men efficio nihil.”

On Nov 20, 2008, at 11:13 AM, muirgens@aol.com wrote:

Greetings all:

I apologize for just getting to these messages now. I am still catching up with my mail from the weekend away. Here are some thoughts, comments and corrections.

I am all for doing what we can to sustain and improve the youth fighting program in the kingdom (and I'm sure His Majesty would agree). We need to keep kids engaged and interested in the SCA and all of it's activities both for the vitalit y of the society and because it's better for their brains than Nintendo and Myspace (in my opinion). When we discussed this issue at Our Curia, there were some concerns that I don't think have been addressed. One was "do the kids want this?". I am not sure that has been answered yet.

I would, with all due respect to His Excellency Sir Tristan, like to clarify that His Majesty and I are not against a youth rattan program in general. We are against arming up a 16 year old and turning him or her out to fight any and all adult comers. His Majesty and I have concerns about the potential for harm to still physically and emotionally immature kids. And here I am talking about biology. Certainly there are physically large and "mature" kids out there. But size and apparent maturity does not mean that they are actually finished growing or that their brains are like an adult's yet. To borrow an example, yes we allow kids to drive at 16 but not past midnight and they pay a lot more for insurance (or their parents do) because they are generally easily distracted, more impulsive, and wreck more than adults. From the adult side, we all know fighters who are either over calibrated, easily pissed off, or just not good teachers. We all tend to steer even adult novices away from these folks in a subtle, often unspoken way, because we don't want the new folks to get turned off to fighting or the society. This to me points up the need to make sure that any adults who are part of the youth rattan program are patient, well controlled, and good teachers so that kids aren't at the receiving end of any of that.

None of this means that We are opposed to youth rattan (or fencing) across the board. We are willing to talk about and probably approve a well-thought-out plan to introduce rattan combat to older kids should we all get this organized before We step down. Most of you are probably unaware that what brought me into the SCA at the age of 8 or 9 was fencing. At that time (yes, the earth was still cooling and the written word was new technology) there was no age restriction for fencing so I started my SCA career fencing adults and really enjoyed it. It got me into the society and obviously it has stuck! So I certainly appreciate what youth rattan and/or fencing programs might bring to us all. However, they need to be well thought out and well implemented to protect the kids while allowing them to continue to learn and grow in the Society.

I hope that this conversation will continue both online and in live meetings. I would request that future meetings be scheduled and announced broadly through not only this list but the discussion board and "announce". I may have overlooked an announcement, but Christopher and I were not aware that a meeting was=2 0planned for the Castle event making it difficult to attend. I look forward to learning what was discussed at that meeting if it occurred.

Thank you all for being so concerned about the youth of the kingdom and about the future of the youth fighting programs. I feel confident that we will come to a policy that will be good for the kids, good for the adults who are interested, and good for the Kingdom.

Morgen
Regina

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#61

From: OTRobin@...
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:17 pm
Subject: Re: Youth Combat vs 16+ Adult combat

ladynivah

Offline

Send Email

Your Majesty,

Thank you for sharing and clarifying.

In the barony of Thescorre we have 2 young men who do want to participate in the rattan training before they are allowed to fight adults at will. Their concerns and those of their parents, as told to me, is that under the current proposal they have to continue to practice rattan "underground" rather than at SCA practices.

Please do not shoot the messenger anyone, I was asked to relay their feelings and that we do have 2 fighters who are very interested.

Over time we have lost some very good youth fighters who have not continued on in either the youth program or as adult fighters when they turned 18. Reasons can be quite varied and many, but in two cases it was because we were not able to challenge their skills enough under current conditions. My step son and another youth just got tired of fighting each other after several years because they knew all the other's moves. One has moved on to fencing outside the SCA and my step son is over 21 now and says he is not particularly inclined to return to an activity he enjoyed in a group that was not sensitive to their needs. Both of these young men found training outside SCA policy allowed greater challenge and built their skills more.

I have questioned my skills as a marshal many times because I was not able to find enough ways to challenge their skills within SCA boundaries. My personal opinion of allowing the 16 and 17 year olds to fight rattan is based on past experience, my professional training and what the framework of the SCA policies might allow. I support the alternate choice of rattan against each other for 16 and 17 with an adult partner/mentor who wish to train. As parents we were very particular who was allowed to work with Matt. We wanted someone who would demonstrate high levels of chivalry, honor, respect and fair play along with the ability to throw a good shot. I became a marshal because I did not think it was fair that the same person had to be responsible all the time for the activity. Shortly after we had two more youth marshals in our practice group who also felt the same way.

While the process of standardizing what attributes the majority would feel best exemplifies a responsible adult fighter mentor continues, I hope that some fighters are not overlooked because they are not at a certain rank.

This entire process not an easy task and I am very grateful to all those who have begun to listen to the voices of those who wish to develop a responsible training program within the SCA that will transition the youth fighters to the adult list as safely as possible.

Nivah

In a message dated 11/20/2008 11:15:14 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time, muirgens@... writes:

Greetings all:

I apologize for just getting to these messages now. I am still catching up with my mail from the weekend away. Here are some thoughts, comments and corrections.

I am all for doing what we can to sustain and improve the youth fighting program in the kingdom (and I'm sure His Majesty would agree). We need to keep kids engaged and interested in the SCA and all of it's activities both for the vitality of the society and because it's better for their brains than Nintendo and Myspace (in my opinion). When we discussed this issue at Our Curia, there were some concerns that I don't think have been addressed. One was "do the kids want this?". I am not sure that has been answered yet.

I would, with all due respect to His Excellency Sir Tristan, like to clarify that His Majesty and I are not against a youth rattan program in general. We are against arming up a 16 year old and turning him or her out to fight any and all adult comers. His Majesty and I have concerns about the potential for harm to still physically and emotionally immature kids. And here I am talking about biology. Certainly there are physically large and "mature" kids out there. But size and apparent maturity does not mean that they are actually finished growing or that their brains are like an adult's yet. To borrow an example, yes we allow kids to drive at 16 but not past midnight and they pay a lot more for insurance (or their parents do) because they are generally easily distracted, more impulsive, and wreck more than adults. From the adult side, we all know fighters who are either over calibrated, easily pissed off, or just not good teachers. We all tend to steer even adult novices away from these folks in a subtle, often unspoken way, because we don't want the new folks to get turned off to fighting or the society. This to me points up the need to make sure that any adults who are part of the youth rattan program are patient, well controlled, and good teachers so that kids aren't at the receiving end of any of that.

None of this means that We are opposed to youth rattan (or fencing) across the board. We are willing to talk about and probably approve a well-thought-out plan to introduce rattan combat to older kids should we all get this organized before We step down. Most of you are probably unaware that what brought me into the SCA at the age of 8 or 9 was fencing. At that time (yes, the earth was still cooling and the written word was new technology) there was no age restriction for fencing so I started my SCA career fencing adults and really enjoyed it. It got me into the society and obviously it has stuck! So I certainly appreciate what youth rattan and/or fencing programs might bring to us all. However, they need to be well thought out and well implemented to protect the kids while allowing them to continue to learn and grow in the Society.

I hope that this conversation will continue both online and in live meetings. I would request that future meetings be scheduled and announced broadly through not only this list but the discussion board and "announce". I may have overlooked an announcement, but Christopher and I were not aware that a meeting was planned for the Castle event making it difficult to attend. I look forward to learning what was discussed at that meeting if it occurred.

Thank you all for being so concerned about the youth of the kingdom and about the future of the youth fighting programs. I feel confident that we will come to a policy that will be good for the kids, good for the adults who are interested, and good for the Kingdom.

Morgen
Regina

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#55

From: OTRobin@...
Date: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

ladynivah

Offline

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I wish I had an answer to settle that point. My only one is the SCA policy for minors.

What I am told by some of the frequent and consistent boffer making people is that there is very little to zero difference between rattan and boffer. The one difference stressed to me is calibration. More concern regarding the splintering seen in PVC even when taped properly is what has been reported to me.

If their response is any different or more detailed, I will gladly post it. I very rarely now make weapons personally so have to rely on those who do make boffer and rattan. When we have weighed the adults' weapons - as was done at marshal point for Pennsic - the ones I did were pretty consistent to within a few ounces.

Nivah

In a message dated 11/14/2008 12:58:05 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time, yvianne@... writes:

I'm not trying to be rude or flippant about this. I tried for over an hour to phrase this better, but I don't seem to be able to without changing the kind of answer I think we need at this point.

If rattan and boffer are so similar that youth can switch back and forth without any problems, why does the kingdom need a youth rattan program at all?

It just seems that trying to define the specifics of a new policy without ever really answering this basic question first keeps bringing us back to the question. Perhaps if we answer the question, we would have a specific goal and be able to draft policy around that.

Yvianne

----- Original Message -----

From: OTRobin@aol.com

To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 10:27 AM

Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

Jenna,

This looks good except one area confuses me.

If the only rattan experience the older kids who want to have will be at events, what happens the rest of the time when they are no longer allowed to go to a practice and fight boffer? It sounds like this will eliminate 16+ rattan fighters from practicing under the SCA rules once they switch, for now, and be encouraging more off the radar practicing.

As time passes and more events are held that will include the 16+ component, I hope participation spreads quickly.

My other area of confusion is that many of the older kids already fighting rattan outside of SCA sanctions activities have been able to go back to boffer with little or no difficulty. If level 3 boffer weapons are made to mimic rattan in bulk, weight and balance, the idea that anything more than a minimum or zero difference in calibration and muscle memory does not fit. Using my training in activity analysis, practicing is what will build muscle and motion memory. Anyone who has ever had an injury that requires physical or occupational therapy has learned that you can't fake it or fool the therapist when you have not done the exercises for your home program. The rhythm and fluid motion is not present nor observed when you do not practice. This is very similar to the notion that putting on armor without any stretching or minimal muscle warming up then going full speed, makes you invincible to injury.

I agree with erring on the side of caution. It is pretty easy to pick out the fighters who practice regularly and am always very glad to see more and heavier armor than SCA minimums require, for any person.

I would suggest two topics for classes at C3R. One for adults fighters who wish to be included in the training process of 16+ rattan. Second, would be for all marshals who wish to participate in the 16+ rattan program to clearly outline policy, learn some approved methods to include (standardization) and gather ideas to consider that would include teaching the 16+ rattan how to handle some typical conflicts - like not taking shots.

I will gladly make an outline to post for purposes of fine tuning with suggestions, if anyone is interested.

Nivah

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#57

From: "Carole Goranson" <JennaMacPherson@...>
Date: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:22 am
Subject: Re: Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

flb82

Offline

Send Email

nivah,

one thing that needs to be established from the start is that we cannot make

rules or standards based on what people are doing OUTSIDE of the SCA venues.

First it is simply none of our business and secondly we are trying to

provide activities that fall within the established SCA doctrines and

existing policies. if people want to have their training at home under the

eyes of their parents, well.. i simply don't care.



that being said...part of the reason to start small and have things happen

at event only for a while is as i mentioned in my letter "This will give us

an opportunity to see how  many 16-17's are interested

as well as establishing the new style of  marshaling before the practice is

wide spread. it was discussed that this  might be a more practical way to

approach the new program to establish  conventions in the training rather

than 125 local groups individually  saying "woohoo! lets fight"



naturally we hope participation will grow and that this becomes a viable

training program. but at this exact point in time i don't actually know that

ANYONE will participate. i have lots of "i know a guy..." stories and "well,

i've been contacted by several people..." stories but the simple fact

remains that i have yet to hear a 16 or 17 year old say "oh yes please can

we do this" or even "this is a stupid idea, just let us fight adult at 16

like other kingdoms." And the few youth fighters who have spoken on the

project DON'T want to participate. it seems that the only people who think

this is a cool idea are marshals and maybe some parents.



as for the muscle memory part. it has little...maybe nothing to do with the

size shape or weight of the armor and weapons. it has to do with the way the

body is used to throw a shot. In youth combat everything is sent straight

from the shoulder. we've all seen it the most popular shot in any of the 3

divisions is the forward punch shot. that is not to say that some, maybe

most of the kids know how to throw a real shot, but they don't because it

doesn't work as well in PVC. BUT when you train a person to throw the shot

correctly, from the hip across the back and out through the end of the arm

you add power and speed that with PVC we have seen break bones. '



can the kids learn to go back an forth between the forms like they do with

heavy to light rapier? of course they can. when 30-35 division 3's are at

pennsic in 100 degree heat and tempers are rising will they always remember

to throw down to PVC standards..no, not always. and its not just youth, the

same happens in rattan and rapier when tempers and/or adrenalin begin to

rise.



i'm glad that you will be working on some ideas for 3 ravens. the more

people that become involved with the young people of the kingdom the better.

let me see your outlines when they are ready. i hope to hear back from the

autocrat soon.



i hope this answers some of you questions

jenna



Carole Goranson (THL Jenna MacPherson of Lion's Tower)

Amherst, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich Hael, �thelmearc)



"The problems of the world can't be solved in meters." - Arlo Guthrie











>From: OTRobin@...

>Reply-To: AEyouthpolicy@yahoogroups.com

>To: AEyouthpolicy@...

>Subject: Re: [AEyouthpolicy] Policy Meeting Notes (gold Chain)

>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:27:43 EST

>

>Jenna,

>

>This looks good except one area confuses me.

>If the only rattan experience the older kids who want to have will be at

>events, what happens the rest of the time when they are no longer allowed

>to go

>to a  practice and fight boffer?  It sounds like this  will eliminate 16+

>rattan fighters from practicing under the SCA rules  once they switch, for

>now,

>and be encouraging more off the radar  practicing.

>As time passes and more events are held that will include the 16+

>component,

>I hope participation spreads quickly.

>My other area of confusion is that many of the older kids already fighting

>rattan outside of SCA sanctions activities have been able to go back to

>boffer

>with little or no difficulty.  If level 3 boffer weapons are made to  mimic

>rattan in bulk, weight and balance, the idea that anything more than  a

>minimum

>or zero difference in calibration and muscle memory does not fit.  Using my

>training in activity analysis, practicing is what will build muscle and

>motion

>memory. Anyone who has ever had an injury that requires physical or

>occupational therapy has learned that you can't fake it or fool the

>therapist  when

>you have not done the exercises for your home program. The rhythm and fluid

>motion is not present nor observed when you do not practice.  This is very

>similar to the notion that putting on armor  without any stretching or

>minimal

>muscle warming up then going full speed, makes  you invincible to injury.

>

>I agree with erring on the side of caution.  It is pretty easy to pick  out

>the fighters who practice regularly and am always very glad to see more and

>heavier armor than SCA minimums require, for any person.

>

>I would suggest two topics for classes at C3R. One for adults fighters who

>wish to be included in the training process of 16+ rattan. Second, would be

>for

>  all marshals who wish to participate in the 16+ rattan program to clearly

>outline policy, learn some approved methods to include (standardization)

>and

>gather ideas to consider that would include teaching the 16+ rattan how to

>handle some typical conflicts - like not taking shots.

>I will gladly make an outline to post for purposes of fine tuning with

>suggestions, if anyone is interested.

>

>Nivah

>

>

>

>In a message dated 11/14/2008 7:45:51 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time,

>JennaMacPherson@... writes:

>

>Greetings all,

>sorry for the delay, but finally here are the notes  from the youth policy

>meeting at gold chain event. i was happy to see some  new faces and meet

>some

>new people and we were honoured by the presence of  Their Royal Highnesses

>and Sir Tristan, the Earl Marshal. I think with the  support we have been

>getting throughout the kingdom AEthelmearc will have  one of the finest

>youth

>programs in no time at all.

>Copies of these  notes will alos be posted to the Youth Combat website.

>

>1. 16+ rattan to  be implemented at events only to begin with, rather than

>at

>every local  practice.

>

>This will give us an opportunity to see how  many 16-17's are interested

>as well as establishing the new style of  marshaling before the practice in

>wide spread. it was discussed that this  might be a more practical way to

>approach the new program to establish  conventions in the training rather

>than 125 local groups individually  saying "woohoo! lets fight"

>

>2. It was agreed that we understand that  some of the youth are being

>trained

>"off the SCA radar" by their parents  or adult friends. when the 16+

>program

>is underway we would like it to be  understood that the people training in

>rattan are honour bound not to go  back to the local groups and practice

>with

>the PVC.

>

>It was brought up that not only is the calibration different  between

>the forms but that also the muscle motion and memory are very  different

>and

>that it would be unwise to mix the forms. we have had some  first hand

>reports of young people who have face some serious injuries by  doing so.

>that is not to say that some young people are able to do it  quite well,

>but

>to begin with we choose to err on the side of  caution.

>

>3. It was discussed that training the 16+ group would have to  be a

>cooperative effort between youth warranted marshals and adult heavy

>warranted marshals. Also that we will need to include a roster of rattan

>fighters in each region that are approved to train/spar with the young

>people that dont technically need to be warranted in either venue or be

>required to have the background check.

>

>Strangely, at  this point sir aengus turned to speak to the gentle to his

>left and while  he was looking the other way his hand slowly raised itself

>up

>into the air  and thus he volunteered to be in charge of this section of

>the

>program  :0)

>

>4. a second meeting has been scheduled for the storming the castle  even

>tin

>rhydderich hael on saturday 11/15.

>

>5. i have contacted the  autocrat of college of 3 ravens event to request a

>full day track of  classes and practice sessions for the youth martial

>academy. this will be  our first chance to have an actual training session

>for the 16+ with  rattan. so if anyone has ideas for classes in boffer or

>youth rapier  please start formulating it into a class and let me know what

>you're  thinking. i will post details from the autocrat when i have them.

>

>6. a  topic that was discussed for the youth combat program as a whole is

>the

>

>significance of division 2 fighters. it has often been noted that in

>division 1 the kids are just joyful and happy to be swinging a stick with

>permission! in division 3 there is much talk of calibration and

>manners...one is too high the other too low. The way i see it the obvious

>time for "intervention" is division 2. the kids here still have the joy

>but

>are becoming bigger and stronger and yes virginia, just a little more

>willful. another significant delema in division 2 is that this is the age

>for growth spurts. the height/weight range between the kids is extremely

>spread out in this group. On the positive side though they are also the

>most

>adaptable to fighting up to 3 or fighting down to 1. it is also where  most

>kids decide why they are in the program and if they want to stay in  and go

>on to adult heavy.

>

>So basically we  should begin some new discussion on how to make the

>most of our division  2. please feel free to post you ideas, concerns,

>questions, comments,  observations.

>

>finally thank to all who have participated in this  process and all the

>autocrats who have made time and space for us. i hope  to see many of you

>at

>storming the castle.

>

>thank you for your  support :0)

>

>i do remain

>jenna

>

>

>

>Carole Goranson (THL  Jenna MacPherson of Lion's Tower)

>Amherst, NY (Barony of the Rhydderich  Hael, �thelmearc)

>

>"The problems of the world can't be solved in  meters." - Arlo  Guthrie

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>Yahoo!  Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

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